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Input from the community for developing a Alpine Snowboard specific Zipfit liner.

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good to see zipfit reaching out to riders to hear some feedback.

I am sure that most of the guys are busy with MCC event right now, but I am sure that there will be some valuable feedback coming shortly.

For me the most important things in the liners would be :

- uniform heel hold with zero heel lift

- indication of liner being compatible with certain shell - i.e. Gran Prix fits Mountain Slope 951 shell well or Deeluxe or UPZ shell

- Cuff height

- not sure if this is relevant but :some of the guys have huge calf muscles - would be great if there was an option in the liner to choose more space tp accomodate this

- tongue vs overlap design - not sure if possible with zipfit OMFIT.

 

I am already riding zipfit Grand Prix with sidewinder and absolutely loving it. IMHO exceeds the performance of foam injected liners by far. 

Cheers!

L

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It would be great if there was a liner option with some additional width in the forefoot. More Keen shaped than pointy toed..

Heel hold is a must.

Liner has to be tall enough...

Thanks!

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35 minutes ago, lonbordin said:

It would be great if there was a liner option with some additional width in the forefoot. More Keen shaped than pointy toed..

Heel hold is a must.

Liner has to be tall enough...

Thanks!

ZipFit's are already good in this respect as the toe box is made of a combination of wool, Thinsulate, and neoprene, which makes the toe box very much like a sock in the sense that it flexes and moves quite freely adapting to different shell widths and feet morphology.

We got heal hold solved.

I have heard a lot from alpine snowboarders about an increased height. Noted.

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Awesome, welcome!

If you watch any FIS World Cup coverage, you will see that the yellow Point .951 World Cup boot made by Mountain Slope has basically become the de facto standard.  It might be good to acquire a pair for testing.

I haven't tried ZipFits yet, but generally speaking, I would say heel hold-down is at the top of my list.  Alpine snowboarders can also suffer shin bang, however I do not.  A big issue I have had in every hardshell snowboard boot I've ever had is snow intrusion.  Lots of it.  A liner with a waterproof/breathable membrane would be welcome. 

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If a wrap liner is possible, I'd like that. If not, a tongue that cures the pressure at the over lap and doesn't wander when the leg moves.

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I have had GrandPrix now for two season, very happy with them. They are high enough, and keep heel down.

I see only two things which could be better, bigger one is that top blue strap, when tightening it, that black metal piece goes sideways, it should be more tight fit to strap. Can send photo if not clear 🙂 On UPZ boot that top strap could be slightly higher so it would be easier to tighten.

I know that some people, mainly Eurocarvers, prefer liner not making boot so stiff, but for me it is not issue.

For me these are perfect liners, love them.

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I recently acquired a pair of World Cup sidewinder stealth liners for use with my MP 26 UPZ boots. I have (very) low arches, a narrow heel and a somewhat wide mid foot. I heated the shells and slipped in the liners according to the fitting instructions (I'm not sure this made a difference). My initial impressions were that:

  • they have terrific heel-hold. Better than any pair of Intuitions I've had.
  • they have a very comfortable toe-box. It feels plush with just enough room for wiggle but no slop.
  • it was incredibly tight around the area above the arch on the medial side of the foot, presumably from all that extra material in the sidewinder.
  • they're very stiff.

I took them out for a day on the hill regardless of the extreme tightness around the arch. I didn't think I could ride in them but I persisted because hey, I've done dumber things. I couldn't close the instep buckle without squishing my feet so I rode with them open. The tightness and stiffness limited ankle flexion, I can't tell by how much but it was very obvious. Over the course of the morning, my feet settled into the liners. They're still tight in that area but more comfortably so and I didn't bother to do up the instep buckle at all.

They're also pretty tall. The height combined with my large calves made it uncomfortable at times as I would feel the top of the cuff dig into my calves on aggressive heelside turn initiations. My calves were somewhat tender at the end of the day.

I can see how these would be great for racing owing to the stiffness and fit. However, I also freeride in my UPZ's with the stock liner but I won't be doing that with the zipfits.

My bootfitter's solution to the tightness was to blow up the shells a tiny bit around the problem area. Carpet surfing in them, they're a lot more comfortable and I can now comfortably close the instep buckle. Still zero heel lift.

I also just got a pair of the non-sidewinder world cups. I will throw in my $.02 comparison when I get around to riding in them.

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Welcome to the forum Zipfit! I'm always happy to see a manufacturer pay attention to our very niche market. As you probably know, we are definitely willing to spend money to fine tune our setups - I look forward to riding some alpine-snowboard-specific Zipfits one day down the road!

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Welcome Zipfit! Great to have you here. You produce one of the best liners out there. I rode them for a number of years. 

I had similar problems as with all tge other liners I use. Due to narrow heel, wide bony ankle and somewhat wide mid/fore foot, I always had sketchy heel hold and too much pressure on the ankle bones. I had to add axtra padding material around ankles and on the sides of Achiles tendon. I'd like to see some combination of permanent more rigid padding combined with your flowy gell around ankles/heel. 

Also, I always found the soles a bit thin/cold. 

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@trailertrash you have been using Zipfit for a while. I know you suffered from cold feet a lot.

For me as @Jack M indicated heel hold is a top priority, good stiff liner and toe warmth.  I also suffer from snow coming in under the tongue and getting a soaked liner by the end of the day. The snow issue is because of the high angles we create when carving.

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On 2/12/2020 at 7:27 AM, zipfit said:

ZipFit's are already good in this respect as the toe box is made of a combination of wool, Thinsulate, and neoprene, which makes the toe box very much like a sock in the sense that it flexes and moves quite freely adapting to different shell widths and feet morphology.

First, I want to thank you for coming to the forum, much appreciated. :biggthump

The circled area in the following photo is too narrow for me. Yes I've tried them...

spacer.png

Something to keep in mind the vast majority of us run angles 40 to 60 degrees... so less lateral issues like skiers and more forwards backwards.

Again thanks for visiting.

Edited by lonbordin

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On 2/12/2020 at 8:21 AM, Jack M said:

Point .951 World Cup boot made by Mountain Slope has basically become the de facto standard.  It might be good to acquire a pair for testing.

Such a homer!!... 

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9 hours ago, lonbordin said:

Something to keep in mind the vast majority of us run angle 40 to 60 degrees... so less lateral issues like skiers and more forwards backwards.

agreed. 👍👍 existing flex theories turned 90 degrees. most boot shells have flex controls as well such as different stiffness of springs rather than a locked in downhill ski boot. extreme odor control. wrap only. power straps and laces on liners are a royal pain to deal with, especially if adjustments must be made after a few runs, etc. stiff. heel hold. toe box wiggle room. high cuff. affordable.

 

i personally run non-stock liners in both soft boots and hard boots.

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I have found that Deeluxe 131 Thermofit liners in my UPZ size 28 shells provide excellent heel hold down because of the hockey stick shaped internal foam contours designed for this purpose. 

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On 2/12/2020 at 7:39 PM, GeoffV said:

@trailertrash you have been using Zipfit for a while. I know you suffered from cold feet a lot.

For me as @Jack M indicated heel hold is a top priority, good stiff liner and toe warmth.  I also suffer from snow coming in under the tongue and getting a soaked liner by the end of the day. The snow issue is because of the high angles we create when carving.

If you're having heel hold issues in a Zipfit you probably don't have enough cork.

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On 2/13/2020 at 1:39 AM, GeoffV said:

@trailertrash you have been using Zipfit for a while. I know you suffered from cold feet a lot.

For me as @Jack M indicated heel hold is a top priority, good stiff liner and toe warmth.  I also suffer from snow coming in under the tongue and getting a soaked liner by the end of the day. The snow issue is because of the high angles we create when carving.

I solved the snow issue on my Deeluxe with a piece of 2mm thick rubber put between the shell and the tonque. Sometimes a little bit gets in, but 90% solved. I think a softer rubber (neoprene)  would do a 100%.

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- Ideally a wrap around design as the stock UPZ liner had a shifting tongue.

- Stamp L and R on the liner for idiots like me that get it wrong half the time.

- A reliable 'at home' heat molding process.

- A way to try before you buy or at least see what fits best in your shell.

- Removable footbeds.

- A way to accomodate different arch heights.

 

 

 

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The beauty of the Zip is the tongue, but it should offer different hardnesses, UPZ liners are not Zipp liners, huge difference, Zipps have huge heel hold, and are very low volume, UPZ boots are perfect, Deluxe not so much, Zipp might offer a bladder for Deluxe boots, something attached then filled with cork to fit.

Zip's are heated by heating the shell with steam, then inserting the liner, and wearing fr 10 minutes, it's an at home feature, all liners allow orthotics, orthotics are exactly how you accomodate arch height, Zipps are  more a performance liner, vs any wrap around liner with no tongue.

So, warmer, taller, tongue stiffness choices (my full tilts offer 6-12, I use 12) bladders for deluxe boots, check. 

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5 hours ago, pmorita said:

- Ideally a wrap around design as the stock UPZ liner had a shifting tongue.

- Stamp L and R on the liner for idiots like me that get it wrong half the time.

- A reliable 'at home' heat molding process.

- A way to try before you buy or at least see what fits best in your shell.

- Removable footbeds.

- A way to accomodate different arch heights.

It looks like ZipFit keeps the tongue in place with that velcro strap you can see in the pics on their site.  My Mountain Slope stock liners had a shifting tongue on one foot, so I solved it by running the boot's booster strap under the shell tongue.  ZipFit's strap probably accomplishes the same thing.

ZipFit has dealers, if there's one close to you you could try there.  I know my local ZipFit dealer.  He says you don't need to heat mold them, you just wear them and they mold themselves.

Removable footbeds/different arch heights - I would imagine ZipFits don't come with a footbed, or one they expect you to throw away.  If you are buying $300+ liners, you should also have no trouble getting custom footbeds.  I consider them mandatory equipment.  If you don't have them already, once you do you'll kick yourself for waiting so long to get them.

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"We have to remember that what we observe is not nature in itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning."

-Werner Heisenberg

 

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I have bought 2 pairs of Gara, 2 pairs of Tour/Diva, and 1 pair of standard Zipfit Liner for me, my wife and my family.

I like the Zipfit fitting, heel hold and everything. But sometimes prefer using Touring boots liner for its flex.

My comment and suggestion is that the liner should be very flex longitudinally and should NOT interfere the boot flex by make it stiff.

The biggest different between ski and snowboard is that skiers do not use/have limited use of ankle while snowboarder use the ankle to absorb the bump and control the board. For Extreme Carving, that is especially important! You can promote your zipfit in the www.extremecarving.com and asking for their suggestion.

I prefer Tour/Diva for snowboard than Gara/standard which are too stiff.

Also, I find the strap useless and affecting the fit around the calf area. I also use normal shoe laces instead of the one provided.

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On 2/12/2020 at 8:21 AM, Jack M said:

A big issue I have had in every hardshell snowboard boot I've ever had is snow intrusion

This!!! Omg, I thought I was alone here. Good to know I’m not the only one. 

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On 2/14/2020 at 3:19 AM, TimW said:

I solved the snow issue on my Deeluxe with a piece of 2mm thick rubber put between the shell and the tonque. Sometimes a little bit gets in, but 90% solved. I think a softer rubber (neoprene)  would do a 100%.

I realize this is off topic for the thread but I’d love to see some photos of what you’ve done here. Thanks!

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After my post I did the neoprene upgrade, see pic. Piece cut from an old wetsuit and glued to the shell to make sure it stays in place. Tested them today and works perfectly.

Before that I used the piece of 2mm rubber to the left, just clamped between the shell and the tongue(so where the neoprene is now)20200216_203408_resize_44.jpg.b74aa40a8e0d679e3988deb1bb0ba29a.jpg

Edited by TimW

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