Popular Post johnasmo Posted January 26, 2021 Popular Post Report Share Posted January 26, 2021 On 12/24/2020 at 8:35 AM, Tddragon said: Can't wait for a k168 vs Contra in-depth comparison! I've got 14 days on my K168 now. No more excuses to procrastinate. The K168 is a really really really good board. I like it a lot. My Contra 178 12m is a really really really good board too. I like it a lot. How do they compare? Background. I got a used K168 last spring after our Covid shutdown. Got it from @workshop7who I think got it from @MR. JOHN DEERE !(?). As far as I know it's a stock K168. Normal white topsheet, not p-tex topped. I wanted to find out what all the K168 hullabaloo was about. I don't like "race" boards, so I didn't expect to like it, let alone be good enough to ride it. The K168 is a traditional high-camber tight-long-med VSR, but exceptionally well executed. The flex and sidecut seem perfectly balanced for efficient carves. The board stays calm and collected no matter what's happening to it; no unwanted surprises. It's a demanding ride. Not demanding like hard to ride, but demanding like exhausting. You have to ride darn aggressively to keep your speed down. Relax a bit and it will speed you down the fall line. It can take a normal blue run and make you work it like a winch groomed black diamond. That sounds negative, but it's actually delightfully fun! Like riding steeps? Hell yes, and now the whole mountain rides like steeps! WooHoo! I think this is because of the extreme VSR and the relatively high camber. It's a 8-12-10 VSR, so it initiates turns the moment you tilt it. Roll in too slow and it won't let you get low enough to keep it turning tight. Lazy cross-over turns equal unchecked acceleration down the fall line. Quick back-to-back cross-under is the ticket. Just like riding steeps! The Contra, on the other hand, is a shortened VSR nested between longer radii tip and tail. Similar resistance to flex, but starting at a point with lower camber. It offers a different pressure distribution that is trying to optimize for low available friction surfaces (aka ice). A side-effect is that it's slower to initiate turns. That sounds negative, but it's actually delightfully fun if you run steeps all day! Instead of making blues ride like blacks, it makes blacks ride like blues. Lazy cross-over turning on that winch groomed black? No problem. The K168 responds well to traditional weight shifting. Drive the nose to turn tighter, roll back if you want to hold it longer; the usual. With a Contra, the tight bits of the sidecut are closer to your feet. You don't need to shift as much, and it doesn't do as much good if you do. It's all about the tilt; it gives you time to get as low as you want for the turn you want, then lets you stay there as long as you need. In the chalky hardpack we've had here in Whitefish, Montana lately, both have been excellent rides. But all is not bliss with the K168. The width (20.5) and the T4 metal make it a harsher ride when the runs aren't smooth. I can see why people resort to plates, but plates are not my thing. Without a plate, it's relegated to being a morning ride; switching to a narrower T3 Contra once push piles form. The first couple days I rode it, the hill was recovering from a rain event on the lower mountain. Good snow up high, progressively icier as you descended. I got a short glimpse of the K168 ice hold. It was better than I expected for such an extreme VSR, a testament to it being well balanced with the flex, but I could still hold against the fall line further down the mountain on my Contras. Unfortunately for testing, but rather fortunately for riding, those conditions were fleeting. For now I've been riding them back-to-back on high grip hardpack and they are both excellent. I can report more definitely about ice later in the season. If I could only own one, it would be my Contra 178 x 12m by virtue of it being smoother and more comfortable for all day riding. The K168 is great fun when it's good, smooth groom, but not so fun when it's not. The Contra stays comfortable over a wider range of rough snow. The K168 is demanding all the time; the Contra lets you relax and make mistakes with less consequence. I got the K168 because I was curious if it was as good as people say. Knowing the racing heritage of its family tree, I was not expecting to like it as much as I do. I went into this thinking I would flip it after decoding it (even told the wife as much). But I like it a lot; I'm going to keep it. 9 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carvin' Marvin Posted January 26, 2021 Report Share Posted January 26, 2021 7 minutes ago, johnasmo said: let alone be good enough to ride it. Lets be real, I don't think I've ever seen you make a bad turn. 9 minutes ago, johnasmo said: It can take a normal blue run and make you work it like a winch groomed black diamond. That sounds negative, but it's actually delightfully fun! Like riding steeps? Hell yes, and now the whole mountain rides like steeps! WooHoo! This is interesting. Lots of energy on the exit? I'm going to talk Mark into making me the meanest Superconductor he can. Hopefully I will end up with the best of both worlds. A demanding Thirst sounds strange but who knows it might work out. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonbordin Posted January 26, 2021 Report Share Posted January 26, 2021 5 hours ago, johnasmo said: It's a demanding ride. Not demanding like hard to ride, but demanding like exhausting. You have to ride darn aggressively to keep your speed down. Relax a bit and it will speed you down the fall line. 5 hours ago, Carvin' Marvin said: This is interesting. Lots of energy on the exit? @Carvin' Marvin The race inspired sticks I've had a chance to ride (Kessler, Donek REV, Oxess) all have the VSR increase towards the tail and my experience in similar to what @johnasmo wrote. They always find the fall line... they always increase speed as you go... which is the point of what their built for... I wouldn't say they have more energy on the exit just the continued ability to pick up speed. More a heavy truck on a downhill highway... you have to be aware of your brakes or the truck will get away from you. At the same time they all are fairly damp... you can imagine watching a giant slalom race what might occur if they rode boards that were really lively... another racer off the course! Very fun though especially on less pitched terrain... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffV Posted January 26, 2021 Report Share Posted January 26, 2021 I have K168 and have a 174 Contra arriving this week. Out of the fleet of boards I have I spend 80% of my time on the K168, it is just that good for me. @johnasmo thanks for sharing were the balance needs to be on the Contra. This will be a shift in riding style for me. I hope you can teach and old dog new tricks? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 26, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2021 Thank you @johnasmo for the detailed review. After two days on a Contra 174/20.5/12.5, I generally have similar impressions and feelings. However my preference is for the K168. If I could own only one board, that is the one. I did feel the Contra was easier to find edge hold on mid-day well-used conditions, I can see why this sidecut would be useful/popular in places where conditions get bumpy quickly. However the overall feel of the sidecut was strange to me, something I'd never felt before. It kind of felt as if the board was riding on two skates, one in front of your front foot and one behind your back foot, and nothing in between. I didn't sense much feedback under or between my feet. I felt it was more reluctant to tip up on edge, and low angle cruise carving was kind of "sticky". It seemed to be happiest inside a certain range of edge angles, and sort of awkward outside of it. The KST sidecut is silky smooth to me, everywhere. I agree all the parameters of the board are in total harmony. IMO it is noticeably more pleasing on good conditions like early morning groom. I would rather maximize that time of day. I have also become a conditions snob in my advanced age. I get enough days on hill now that when conditions go to hell I'll just call it a day or I'll just cruise and choose good spots to put a carve down. If I were to be really extravagant, I'd use a KST in the morning and a Contra after lunch. That's probably the ultimate quiver for my mountain. But that seems kind of like having two drivers in your golf bag. 2 hours ago, lonbordin said: The race inspired sticks I've had a chance to ride (Kessler, Donek REV, Oxess) all have the VSR increase towards the tail The stock Kessler 171, 180, 185 are like that, the 168 is not. The largest radius on the 168 is in the middle near the rear foot per John's measurements, and then it tightens towards the tail. It feels this way while riding. My new custom 180 (avg 15m) is like that too, it's an absolute dream. I'm not sure how the 162 is, but I suspect it is tail-tight. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dredman Posted January 26, 2021 Report Share Posted January 26, 2021 2 hours ago, Jack M said: when conditions go to hell I'll just call it a day Be warned, @johnasmois a humanoid robot and will ride regardless of conditions...until the last lift... and if there is night skiing he will be there till that is last chair also. 2 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnasmo Posted January 27, 2021 Report Share Posted January 27, 2021 9 hours ago, dredman said: Be warned, @johnasmois a humanoid robot and will ride regardless of conditions...until the last lift... and if there is night skiing he will be there till that is last chair also. I did ride to last chair today. In the fog. On the Contra. Doing Heep Steep. No night skiing on Tuesdays, though. I should have added a disclaimer with my comparison that my Contras are unique. Well, every Bruce board is unique, but my Contras are from spring of 2019. First prototypes. I know the sidecuts intimately, but Bruce evolved the core profiles and laminates since then. Mileage may vary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted January 27, 2021 Report Share Posted January 27, 2021 In my dreams I can ride Heep Steep like John! Love this video! 6 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnasmo Posted January 27, 2021 Report Share Posted January 27, 2021 21 hours ago, Carvin' Marvin said: This is interesting. Lots of energy on the exit? The K168 does return energy. The hooky tail (10m) can be felt when finishing turns. It sort of flicks the board across quickly into the next turn. That's part of the appeal; part of what keeps things happening quickly (relentlessly). It feels good, until it doesn't. If you accidentally get in the back seat, like can happen when mis-judging where the hill is in fog or flat light, it can be more energetic than you want. I've tasted it, come close, but it hasn't tossed me yet. When that's happened on the Contra, it has let me ride it out in the back seat. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnasmo Posted January 27, 2021 Report Share Posted January 27, 2021 Trivia. The section of Corkscrew in that video is where downhill racer Bill Johnson crashed in 2001. Steve @Cuban Carving Goodingwas just telling me on the lift this week about the movie, Downhill, the Bill Johnson Story. @33:22. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Buggs Posted January 27, 2021 Report Share Posted January 27, 2021 On 1/26/2021 at 2:34 AM, johnasmo said: If I could only own one, it would be my Contra 178 x 12m by virtue of it being smoother and more comfortable for all day riding. The K168 is great fun when it's good, smooth groom, but not so fun when it's not. The Contra stays comfortable over a wider range of rough snow. The K168 is demanding all the time; the Contra lets you relax and make mistakes with less consequence. I have been a Coiler loyalist since 2004 and the one thing I always come back to in my reviews is the ability of his boards to process poor rider input without tossing you in the trees. Mistakes dont get amplified and you can recover without bad results. One of the lines from way back was the "Save your tail, Tail" as one of the big mistakes for many riders is getting in the back seat and not being able to recover. To me Coiler makes boards that instill confidence and allow people to get better getting you to that next level. Now we have a collection of veteran expert riders here that may find these traits a crutch or a negative but for the bulk of us mortal riders it works and works well. With my recent dual residence Im limited to days on snow so I really benefit from these design characteristics. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1xsculler Posted January 27, 2021 Report Share Posted January 27, 2021 I’d like to read a review/comparison by Bruce of his k168 vs his Coilers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surf Quebec Posted January 27, 2021 Report Share Posted January 27, 2021 Any comparison between contra and wogococo yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxlanaudiere Posted January 27, 2021 Report Share Posted January 27, 2021 11 hours ago, SunSurfer said: In my dreams I can ride Heep Steep like John! Love this video! Where is that ?Beautifull Mountain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dredman Posted January 27, 2021 Report Share Posted January 27, 2021 20 minutes ago, Maxlanaudiere said: Where is that ?Beautifull Mountain Whitefish! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dredman Posted January 27, 2021 Report Share Posted January 27, 2021 55 minutes ago, Surf Quebec said: Any comparison between contra and wogococo yet? Identical other than sidecut with straight lines and extra rubber. I think the WoGoCoCo is just a little better on icy stuff and a little quieter underfoot. But I have never met a Coiler they is too noisy underfoot. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Buggs Posted January 27, 2021 Report Share Posted January 27, 2021 5 minutes ago, dredman said: But I have never met a Coiler they is too noisy underfoot. +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pow4ever Posted January 27, 2021 Report Share Posted January 27, 2021 so many awesome contents! I wish i was part robot lol... me as a mere mortal to sum it up: Can't go wrong with either one. John(Contra) - more free carve focus, better riding condition(West), maximize riding time (leg saver) Jack(K168) - since you are coaching CBA; perhaps the racing technique/style leak into the more daily riding? East Coast condition(where we are more used to sub optimal condition; less sensitive), quality(hard charging) over quantity(easy riding) see which spectrum you fall under and go from there. or get both and be merry 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tddragon Posted January 28, 2021 Report Share Posted January 28, 2021 4 hours ago, pow4ever said: so many awesome contents! I wish i was part robot lol... me as a mere mortal to sum it up: Can't go wrong with either one. John(Contra) - more free carve focus, better riding condition(West), maximize riding time (leg saver) Jack(K168) - since you are coaching CBA; perhaps the racing technique/style leak into the more daily riding? East Coast condition(where we are more used to sub optimal condition; less sensitive), quality(hard charging) over quantity(easy riding) see which spectrum you fall under and go from there. or get both and be merry I love my k168 and for east coast crud throw a vist Isolation plate on it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffV Posted January 28, 2021 Report Share Posted January 28, 2021 8 hours ago, 1xsculler said: I’d like to read a review/comparison by Bruce of his k168 vs his Coilers. @Skully let me dig that up in an email from BV Bruce’s thoughts on the K168 ”Very nide but not a board I would ride all day. A bit too harsh and flicky for me. “ He has some new ideas brewing but I would need to get his permission to post them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1xsculler Posted January 28, 2021 Report Share Posted January 28, 2021 37 minutes ago, GeoffV said: @Skully let me dig that up in an email from BV Bruce’s thoughts on the K168 ”Very nide but not a board I would ride all day. A bit too harsh and flicky for me. “ He has some new ideas brewing but I would need to get his permission to post them. Very interesting! It’s always good to get Bruce’s input! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dredman Posted January 28, 2021 Report Share Posted January 28, 2021 I have ridden Johns Kessler 168 and many Contras. I thought the K168 felt like a Coiler VSR 171 Turbo (extra carbon in the tail). The VSR’s (3 side cuts small, large medium SCR) model have died off in Coilers line up. They were really outstanding boards that loved lots of rider input to keep them going. You could load up the tail at the end of a turn and accelerate like crazy into the next one. If you like changing turn shape through a turn or like getting forward and aft on a board to really work it, they were amazing. I think they died off when the Nirvana series came along. The Nirvana’s were just that, super easy forgiving boards that carved great in a wide variety of conditions. The K168 is a super fun board! It makes a wide variety of turn sizes with the right rider inputs. I had a lot of fun riding it, load up the tail and accelerate like crazy into the next turn, make lots of different turn sizes, super duper fun until it got bumpy/cut up. Then the fun stopped. It demands your attention and strength. Very lively and sporty feeling. It most certainly put a big smile on my face.... The Contras as said before are super friendly easy to ride, and even in the laziest of turns it stays engaged. The easy part is no need for forward and back weight shifts in the turn, and the flex pattern soaks up the afternoon conditions. You can ride this one strongly all day. Both exceptional boards, beautifully constructed from builders that know carving. Both perform wonderfully on the icy stuff. If you take many boards to the hill the two would compliment each other nicely. K168 in the morning and a Contra in the afternoon. Back in the day, anything other than perfect hero groom was very rugged riding. The latest generation of boards have made carving easier thus a lot more fun from powder to ice and everything in between. See you at the MCC! 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 28, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2021 19 hours ago, pow4ever said: Jack(K168) - since you are coaching CBA; perhaps the racing technique/style leak into the more daily riding? East Coast condition(where we are more used to sub optimal condition; less sensitive), quality(hard charging) over quantity(easy riding) Sounds about right. Once Beckman pointed me on the right track in '92, I have tried to ride with my understanding of race technique. Although I do like to finish my turns and make full round carves, as the steeps of Sugarloaf require. Hence my new custom K180 (BBE) is shaped to do that. It's a rare day that I can take out and enjoy the stock K185. But when that happens it's mind bending. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pow4ever Posted January 28, 2021 Report Share Posted January 28, 2021 Q on Coiler/Contra setup: I seems to recall for most coiler (maybe Nirvana era); mount the binding a bit forward. For contra do we do the same or mount it more center since seems the way to ride it is more neutral/center? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.E Posted January 28, 2021 Report Share Posted January 28, 2021 I think my Nirvana is mounted just about center on the insert pack, and the long radius Contra just a touch back. I imagine it depends more on your riding style. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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