Future of alpine

[Jack M]

On 4/21/2020 at 9:29 AM, softbootsurfer said:

I am surprised you would say this, actually what happened was Skateboarding and the Tricks associated with it took over, Sims and the early competitions moved that way very quickly, I watched our son, who was 8 at the beginning and who I started Carving and running some local races look at me and tell me " Carving is Boring" see you later, Look at the 1st issue of Transworld, notice 99% of the shots are Tricks, People in the Air...saying Burton sold out is a Cheap Shot...it made no sense from a Business perspective to create product nobody wanted...

I said "some criticism".  I didn't say drawn and quartered.  By the rationale above, no snowboard company should be able to make alpine boards.  Why is Kessler able and Burton not able?  The truth is that it was not a question of ability, they were not forced to stop, they chose to.  Once they did, they turned their back on it pretty hard, even taking a few opportunities to ridicule it.  But like I said, they carried the torch higher and longer than any other mainstream manufacturer, so on the balance I am grateful to Burton.

[b0ardski]

Didn't mean to reignite the burton pyre; the fact there was a mainstream "alpine" (insert semantics argument here) builder I took for granted and still have a sore spot there. The burton 3strapers on an asym air was my gateway drug in '88-'89 and I'm now a total addict to one edge control. I have mostly given up on trying to "convert" anybody to my style of fun.

sorry for the pent up frustrations coming out on my e-family too

Edited April 23, 2020 by b0ardski

[ursle]

I don't agree that skateboarding drew people away from hardbooting, hardbooters like the torque, always will, it's addicting, and let's face it, Burton did go big on alpine, then stepped away, IMHO, I bought a new factory prime and took one run on it a few years after taking up alpine riding, the first turn, front edge, the nose buried itself into the ground and I springboarded 15', made it to the bottom, sold that POS, and... have nothing good to say about Burton Alpine bindings, well, I would recommend not using them, I did find the adjustable cant devices that went under the bindings useful except for their short life.

Remember, Donek has stepped away from alpine for the most part, less than 20% of its sales are alpine related.

 

 

[lowrider]

1 hour ago, ursle said:

I don't agree that skateboarding drew people away from hardbooting, hardbooters like the torque, always will, it's addicting, and let's face it, Burton did go big on alpine, then stepped away, IMHO, I bought a new factory prime and took one run on it a few years after taking up alpine riding, the first turn, front edge, the nose buried itself into the ground and I springboarded 15', made it to the bottom, sold that POS, and... have nothing good to say about Burton Alpine bindings, well, I would recommend not using them, I did find the adjustable cant devices that went under the bindings useful except for their short life.

Remember, Donek has stepped away from alpine for the most part, less than 20% of its sales are alpine related.

 

 

Don't think stepped away would be accurate perhaps customers have stepped away from Donek  Sean is still supporting us at least with wax scrapers @MCC. You could contact Sean today for a new alpine board and you could try to order one from Burton and while you at it order some bindings from Catek !

[John Gilmour]

After going to Japan yo ride two seasons ago - there was a lot of carving there. Japan has the ability to start trends... look at how popular face masks are now when we used to think Japanese wearing face masks do not to infect others was silly.  Jk

 

but really - At Niseko United resorts in Hokkaido   I would hardly say the snow was good for carving, a bit better at  Rusutsu but not by much. 
 

Japan’s Gentem Stick Snowboard company has a way of looking at snowboarding on Japan’s relatively mellow inclines compared to the Rocky Mountains in Alaska as surfing on the snow. Which is something that should not be stopped it is a continuous motion from top to bottom. They try to emulate surfing styles.

So the carving features more surf influenced moves and surf influenced cars, though no very aggressive backslash is certainly they like to hold the rail for a long time. You could see some of this in evidence while I was driving snowmobile and running the riders up to the knuckle hack  at aspens Winter X games this year. While waiting to pick up the riders at the bottom of the chute I got a near front row ticket to seeing all the carving antics after they had landed their tricks. The Japanese were keen to try to outdo each other in carving ability at the bottom of the hill and not just do a slide to a stop. The speeds They didn’t want to looked rushed by doing For instance a high-speed butter and make it look like they were just trying to recover their balance after a sloppy landing or detract from the trick so they want to enhance it by throwing in a very stylish carving move at the bottom.

 

For instance a high-speed butter and make it look like they were just trying to recover their balance after a sloppy landing or detract from the trick so they want to enhance it by throwing in a very stylish carving move at the bottom.

Some Americans did try to emulate this. Sen Powell and I chatted on the ride up as I used to coach at Stratton where he went , but he wasn’t going to put carve the Japanese .. I also took some of the Japanese  riders up and tried to encourage them “ that carve was sick” . But they were going to carve without any encouragement at the bottom anyhow. 
 

Four years in Aspen I leave my signature tracks on certain parts of the hill, just like softsurfer likes to leave his signature high line carve track close to where the Ajax express lift just crosses Silver Bell.  I like to leave some harder to duplicate track coming over a plateau just under the same lift. 
 

so pretty much going up the Ajax express left we’re always curious to see who is here and look for people signature tracks but this year I’ve seen a lot more quality deeper trenching softboot carves and they aren’t attributable to any one person or group of people.

this year early season I saw Angie and her Husband , and then later Daniel Ziv, and only about 2-5 other hardbooters all last year ( missed holiday riding so missed Lance and others) but to say during non-holiday periods hard boot carving was certainly not very visible. On Ajax. 
 

Ziv I saw at highlands .

It was the least alpine snowboarding I have ever seen in a season. But I do think some of the splitboarders in touring boots might be getting the skills for deep trenching .

 

[Corey]

3 hours ago, ursle said:

Remember, Donek has stepped away from alpine for the most part, less than 20% of its sales are alpine related.

That's twisting things! Donek builds what customers order. He'd build more alpine boards if that's what customers ordered. It's awesome that his softboot business picked up, because a strong company will be around to support alpine for longer. 

Would you say that Kessler has abandoned alpine because they build boardercross boards? 

[softbootsurfer]

3 hours ago, ursle said:

I don't agree that skateboarding drew people away from hardbooting, hardbooters like the torque, always will, it's addicting, and let's face it, Burton did go big on alpine, then stepped away, IMHO, I bought a new factory prime and took one run on it a few years after taking up alpine riding, the first turn, front edge, the nose buried itself into the ground and I springboarded 15', made it to the bottom, sold that POS, and... have nothing good to say about Burton Alpine bindings, well, I would recommend not using them, I did find the adjustable cant devices that went under the bindings useful except for their short life.

Remember, Donek has stepped away from alpine for the most part, less than 20% of its sales are alpine related.

 

 

Well it Did...and Sims led that charge, he knew he could tie Skateboarding, which he was very good at, along with surfing, which he was good at, in to Snowboarding and bring all those, together for a large increase in Product sales, Jake had a choice to make soon after...Hence the Magazines Transworld Skateboarding, Transworld Snowboarding, prospered for years based on this idea as well the incredible Growth in Sales...

 

[Gabe T]

It would be interesting to know what the real statistics are for the industry past and present.  Sales, participants, demographics etc.   If these kind of stats were available, it would give us a better sense of where things are heading.  Seeing the numbers around the time Burton pulled out would have been interesting too.

I think the idea of growing the sport through racing was to inject some youth into the sport, thereby ensuring its longevity.  For this to make sense, one would need to have a sense of past trends.   (i.e. what happens to that youth demographic as you move through the timeline?)

Racing participation will help the industry but relying on another niche aspect of alpine snowboarding as a primary growth strategy may not be the best from a business perspective. Even at the highest levels of racing, I get the sense there is a decline of sorts; less sponsorship dollars, fewer World Cup events, fewer Alpine Olympic events with the removal of Slalom.  This could have trickle down effects to lower levels or racing in the future.     

The prevailing sentiment on the forum is that alpine is on the decline or is at least trending that way given that carvers are part of an aging population, at least in North America.  Everyone will have their own stories and experiences at the local level, which may not be a reflection of the community at large.

If I were in my own little world, I would actually think things were not so grim.  As mentioned, equipment advances and choices have never been better.  On some weekends, I have seen as many as 13 or 14 carvers on my hill, which is a heck of a lot more than when I started.   Old and young are among them.  Among the newer riders are an older couple who I knew as regular skiers and a friend’s son that wanted to get into alpine. 

These were examples of people getting involved solely based on having observed alpine carving at our hill and wanting to try it.   This conventional method of exposure is probably not unlike how a lot of us started; you see someone doing something well that looks cool and fun .. you want to do it too.  Problem is that type of exposure if very limited.  Even if your riding technique is regarded as something one would strive to emulate, you have to factor in that the exposure to conversion rate is going to be very very small.  A lot of things have changed in the last 25 years (including how quick and broadly information can be disseminated) but it seems like how we share and expose the sport to outsiders remains unchanged.

[scottishsurfer]

6 hours ago, John Gilmour said:

After going to Japan yo ride two seasons ago - there was a lot of carving there. Japan has the ability to start trends... look at how popular face masks are now when we used to think Japanese wearing face masks do not to infect others was silly.  Jk

If you know where to go do the youtube rabbit hole there is pretty much an endless amount of japanese, korean and chinese soft boot carving vids. It was stumbling upon a number of these a few years ago and being in awe at what was possible on softboots that started me down the carving road that i am now on. It was also through these videos that discovered Alpine riding as that was where alot of there style of riding appeared to originate from. Fast forward a few years and also to answer the question of the thread I dont think alpine is going to go away but i dont see it ever returning to big numbers because good softboot equipment is now at a level where it is good enough for 90% of people looking to carve. You will still get fresh blood into the sport from people like myself who dabble in riding in hardboots to my friend who made the jump to riding hardboots full time but i think it will be a more of a maintaining of numbers rather than an increase/decrease.

[TimW]

Is there really a decline in alpine carving?

Over the 30 years that I am carving,  it has always been a niche.  Yes,  hardboots were big(here in europe), but the number of people really carving has always been very very small. In my perception the main difference is that the skidders moved to softboots, and the overall % of snowboarders has decreased. 

We are simply on one extreme of the spectrum and will always be a niche. I actually think the alpine snowboard market is pretty healthy, enough small manufacturers that are dedicated and make very good boards.  That's better than a big manufacturer throwing in an alpine board to fill the catalogue. Even the hardboot options are ok with 4 or 5 shells on the market. 

Biggest risk to carving is crowds, I can fully understand that waiting for a gap to appear, to lay down some carves, is not appealing.  Even ski schools are moving away promoting/teaching (ski) carving because the crowds are simply limiting. 

Edited April 25, 2020 by TimW

[softbootsurfer]

2 hours ago, TimW said:

Is there really a decline in alpine carving?

Over the 30 years that I am carving,  it had always been a niche.  Yes,  hardboots were big(here in europe), but the number of people really carving has always been very very small. In my perception the main difference is that the skidders moved to softboots, and the overall % of snowboarders has decreased. 

We are simply on one extreme of the spectrum and will always be a niche. I actually think the alpine snowboard market is pretty healthy, enough small manufacturers that are dedicated and make very good boards.  That's better than a big manufacturer throwing in an alpine board to fill the catalogue. Even the hardboot options are ok with 4 or 5 shells on the market. 

Biggest risk to carving is crowds, I can fully understand that waiting for a gap to appear, to lay down some carves, is not appealing.  Even ski schools are moving away promoting/teaching (ski) carving because the crowds are simply limiting. 

Yep, Nope

Good Observation, the number One problem with Carving, is you need open slope, if even 10 % of the Populace was Carving it would be a disaster...I am glad that I am usually alone or with only  a couple others, even when the sessions came to town with 100 riders or so, we would have to go to another mountain, trying to rip Carves in others Trenches is a Drag...

[Neil Gendzwill]

Lots of carvers on a hill can be a bad thing. We tear up Nakiska pretty badly at NES and there’s a max of 20 of us there for that. 

[John Gilmour]

On 4/23/2020 at 10:51 AM, softbootsurfer said:

Well it Did...and Sims led that charge, he knew he could tie Skateboarding, which he was very good at, along with surfing, which he was good at, in to Snowboarding and bring all those, together for a large increase in Product sales, Jake had a choice to make soon after...Hence the Magazines Transworld Skateboarding, Transworld Snowboarding, prospered for years based on this idea as well the incredible Growth in Sales...

 

As the First Sims rep. on the East Coast I got sent an early Sims video which showed TK in a halfpipe. a natural pipe on his round tail. I thought--- oh shit here it comes again. Sims didn't so much lead the charge, He was a surf influenced skateboarder to the core. I saw him race on a long  Sims Taperkick in Nassau Coliseum https://www.nytimes.com/1976/06/19/archives/whoosh-skateboards-zip-back-into-big-time.html

And the tail of his skateboard was so long it was hitting all the Slalom Cones. Henry Hester won that race. I later raced with Henry and Chris Yandall. Tom saw freestyle and personally he liked longboards  that felt like surfing. But Tom also saw the writing on the wall. Tom did continue to make Alpine boards. He held a race st Soda Springs (a mountain that did not allow snowboarding so there was no locals advantge) if you could beat Tom you won one of his boards (he also set the course) no one beat Tom. 

At the Time Mark Heingartner and Andy Coghlan were at Stratton and we had to take tests to ride the "upper mountain " and get your certification card. They were defeinitely into racing- but then again so was Palmer . Palmer Brushie and Kelly all raced before some for Cross M. But at the time I would say Coughlan and Heingartner were more well known. Palmer and Kelly didn't figure in until teh Sims Switchblade era, after the Sims 1710 blade which was the first vertical laminate CAMBERED board. (of course there was Avalanche boards  before that, but they were tiny at the time. the 1710 Blade had wooden sidewalls as in no side walls - so you had to revarnish them after every sharpening . I broke mine in a season and got a SIms X-2000 which was the board Kelly won the open on and then swapped to Burton. 

Yes the VT guys were all about racing, but freestyle didn't take off overnight. Transworld Snowboarding IMHO was the real impetus for that. They sent me about 40 issues which I wish I still had. From the first issue it had a feel that you could see was going to do the same thing that Vert skating in Skateboarder did to the sport.

Magazines survive off of advertising revenue.  In the early days of slalom skateboarding and downhill Di Dootson used to publish a little list of  race results at La Costa, I was at the Viva La Costa reunion this year with Henry Hester , Laura Thornhill, Steve Evans, Ritchie Carasco et all. When You have a racing based sport there emerge 2-3 "main players corporate teams"  with a few smaller race teams winning about 15% of the time.  Unless the product is expensive and needs constant replacement it is very difficult for an action sports magazine (not a mainstream magazine) to survive off of advertising revenue of just 3-5 sponsors that sell the majority of the product. Often the esoteric brands which are harder to produce have smaller production runs and so have no budget for advertising.

 

  In judged sports with freestyle-  its more about marketing and hiring of athletes and distribution than it is about pure race times.

In racing the money shot photo is the racer crossing the line- it's a hard shot to get (particularly in the 1970-1980s , you only get one chance and high frame rate video screen grabs aren't possible like today . In freestyle you have a zillion takes, tons of time alone with pros, endless marketing opportunities.  It's easy to bracket your exposure to get the perfect shot- even if you are a hack, if you can compose the shot , bracket it and have the athlete do the same thing over and over, eventually you will get a magazine worthy shot.

It also supports more athletes- more money paying interior shots that the athlete gets paid for not just the cover shot, or end covers. No one really cares about the 18th place skater in a race unless he is dressed cool.

But freecarving is not racing..

 

...whew

thank goodness for that, because you could support a couple of freecarving shots, but again..we got an Alpin Punk article and that was about it. 

-but in part because a magazine has publishing costs, minimum distribution, minimum runs etc. to be profitable and relevant. This is not true of costs for online publishing ...again.

 

...whew

So - I had a talk with Michael Brooke, I had just won the 2002 Longboard skateboarding world championships... we were at some cool skateboard vert meet up - at I think the wooden hangar bowl in South Carolina. We were talking about another fringe sport- longboarding , online of course existed then, and I talked to Michael about the feeling of holding a magazine in your hand, and being able to leave it on a coffee table for friends to look at. Something- which is aspirational and inspirational.  And that a Sport without a Magazine isn't really a sport at all.

 

Now- if anyone is thinking, Gilmour is full of shit... he couldn't have any influence on this... Just call Michael Brooke ask him yourself. HE will never forget those sort of conversations its his duty to remember and report this sort of stuff.

Well Micheal IMHO had a very good run of it. Publishing International Longbaord Magazine and  later The Concrete Wave after a bit. With great photgraphy somewhat reminiscent of the earlier skateboarder Magazine, but representing skating from all over. He felt he should represent more than just a single facet of the sport- and that the GEOGRAPHIC stranglehold that Dana Point had on skateboarding should not limit its scope of coverage so he made it TRULY INTERNATIONAL. Canada is pretty far from Dana Point... which ironically is where I am typing this article- from a great hill to skate on- that ends near Hobie Alter's bronze full size Hobie Cat Statue .... Ironic.

The issue I see is that the images are not consolidated anywhere. and there is no anticipation of an issue coming out.  I'd like to see a curated magazine of images that comes out only once a month or realistically just 3-5 months a year. and if you like it- you order it on Amazon... and you can even pick the binding quality of the book and cover quality. When You buy one Mag its a singles price ... yor ou can spend double and get 3 issues (and you don't have to select them all at once).  You have say 6  sequential issues to select which ones you want. Or if you buy a 3 pack maybe one of them could be a giant size format. Like some bitching Atlas size.

and then ---- place MAG(s) on your coffee table. So when people come in your house - and see your boards (where ever they are) you can show people what those boards mean to you.

That helps Alpine future.

 

[west carven]

howdy

well it's been done and nobody cares... only us... Carving Magazine

[pokkis]

8 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Lots of carvers on a hill can be a bad thing. We tear up Nakiska pretty badly at NES and there’s a max of 20 of us there for that. 

Just wondering why there are no carvers, looks nice slope

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by pokkis

[lowrider]

John is this another teaser for your Future magazine ? Get on it man non of us are getting off this planet alive and were not getting any younger. You have the most captive audience the world has ever known. 

[1xsculler]

12 hours ago, John Gilmour said:

As the First Sims rep. on the East Coast I got sent an early Sims video which showed TK in a halfpipe. a natural pipe on his round tail. I thought--- oh shit here it comes again. Sims didn't so much lead the charge, He was a surf influenced skateboarder to the core. I saw him race on a long  Sims Taperkick in Nassau Coliseum https://www.nytimes.com/1976/06/19/archives/whoosh-skateboards-zip-back-into-big-time.html

And the tail of his skateboard was so long it was hitting all the Slalom Cones. Henry Hester won that race. I later raced with Henry and Chris Yandall. Tom saw freestyle and personally he liked longboards  that felt like surfing. But Tom also saw the writing on the wall. Tom did continue to make Alpine boards. He held a race st Soda Springs (a mountain that did not allow snowboarding so there was no locals advantge) if you could beat Tom you won one of his boards (he also set the course) no one beat Tom. 

At the Time Mark Heingartner and Andy Coghlan were at Stratton and we had to take tests to ride the "upper mountain " and get your certification card. They were defeinitely into racing- but then again so was Palmer . Palmer Brushie and Kelly all raced before some for Cross M. But at the time I would say Coughlan and Heingartner were more well known. Palmer and Kelly didn't figure in until teh Sims Switchblade era, after the Sims 1710 blade which was the first vertical laminate CAMBERED board. (of course there was Avalanche boards  before that, but they were tiny at the time. the 1710 Blade had wooden sidewalls as in no side walls - so you had to revarnish them after every sharpening . I broke mine in a season and got a SIms X-2000 which was the board Kelly won the open on and then swapped to Burton. 

Yes the VT guys were all about racing, but freestyle didn't take off overnight. Transworld Snowboarding IMHO was the real impetus for that. They sent me about 40 issues which I wish I still had. From the first issue it had a feel that you could see was going to do the same thing that Vert skating in Skateboarder did to the sport.

Magazines survive off of advertising revenue.  In the early days of slalom skateboarding and downhill Di Dootson used to publish a little list of  race results at La Costa, I was at the Viva La Costa reunion this year with Henry Hester , Laura Thornhill, Steve Evans, Ritchie Carasco et all. When You have a racing based sport there emerge 2-3 "main players corporate teams"  with a few smaller race teams winning about 15% of the time.  Unless the product is expensive and needs constant replacement it is very difficult for an action sports magazine (not a mainstream magazine) to survive off of advertising revenue of just 3-5 sponsors that sell the majority of the product. Often the esoteric brands which are harder to produce have smaller production runs and so have no budget for advertising.

 

  In judged sports with freestyle-  its more about marketing and hiring of athletes and distribution than it is about pure race times.

In racing the money shot photo is the racer crossing the line- it's a hard shot to get (particularly in the 1970-1980s , you only get one chance and high frame rate video screen grabs aren't possible like today . In freestyle you have a zillion takes, tons of time alone with pros, endless marketing opportunities.  It's easy to bracket your exposure to get the perfect shot- even if you are a hack, if you can compose the shot , bracket it and have the athlete do the same thing over and over, eventually you will get a magazine worthy shot.

It also supports more athletes- more money paying interior shots that the athlete gets paid for not just the cover shot, or end covers. No one really cares about the 18th place skater in a race unless he is dressed cool.

But freecarving is not racing..

 

...whew

thank goodness for that, because you could support a couple of freecarving shots, but again..we got an Alpin Punk article and that was about it. 

-but in part because a magazine has publishing costs, minimum distribution, minimum runs etc. to be profitable and relevant. This is not true of costs for online publishing ...again.

 

...whew

So - I had a talk with Michael Brooke, I had just won the 2002 Longboard skateboarding world championships... we were at some cool skateboard vert meet up - at I think the wooden hangar bowl in South Carolina. We were talking about another fringe sport- longboarding , online of course existed then, and I talked to Michael about the feeling of holding a magazine in your hand, and being able to leave it on a coffee table for friends to look at. Something- which is aspirational and inspirational.  And that a Sport without a Magazine isn't really a sport at all.

 

Now- if anyone is thinking, Gilmour is full of shit... he couldn't have any influence on this... Just call Michael Brooke ask him yourself. HE will never forget those sort of conversations its his duty to remember and report this sort of stuff.

Well Micheal IMHO had a very good run of it. Publishing International Longbaord Magazine and  later The Concrete Wave after a bit. With great photgraphy somewhat reminiscent of the earlier skateboarder Magazine, but representing skating from all over. He felt he should represent more than just a single facet of the sport- and that the GEOGRAPHIC stranglehold that Dana Point had on skateboarding should not limit its scope of coverage so he made it TRULY INTERNATIONAL. Canada is pretty far from Dana Point... which ironically is where I am typing this article- from a great hill to skate on- that ends near Hobie Alter's bronze full size Hobie Cat Statue .... Ironic.

The issue I see is that the images are not consolidated anywhere. and there is no anticipation of an issue coming out.  I'd like to see a curated magazine of images that comes out only once a month or realistically just 3-5 months a year. and if you like it- you order it on Amazon... and you can even pick the binding quality of the book and cover quality. When You buy one Mag its a singles price ... yor ou can spend double and get 3 issues (and you don't have to select them all at once).  You have say 6  sequential issues to select which ones you want. Or if you buy a 3 pack maybe one of them could be a giant size format. Like some bitching Atlas size.

and then ---- place MAG(s) on your coffee table. So when people come in your house - and see your boards (where ever they are) you can show people what those boards mean to you.

That helps Alpine future.

 

I show my friends and relatives my watch face or my computer screen saver, both of which show an awesome heel side carve, and NOBODY cares and yet I think is the coolest thing on the planet!

Based on my experiences I don't think Alpine stands a chance of growing I am sad to say!

[softbootsurfer]

https://www.coloradoski.com/2015/01/14/ski-cooper-snowboarding-1981

 

[big mario]

Inky needs to have a peek at that Berthod clip, he might be in it

Thanks Happy Bob!

Mario

Edited April 26, 2020 by big mario

[lordmetroland]

2 hours ago, softbootsurfer said:

 

 

Ah, The Pass. About 1,300 skiable acres, maybe 3 of which were groomed. Some of my happiest days were spent at Berthoud. Most of my best snowboarding days too. And where I learned one of life's great truisms: Minivans NEVER stop for hitch hikers.

[Hey John]

Like it or not, the times they are a changin’.  From what I’ve seen, alpine is not going to grow, at least not from the youth and it’s not related to the cool factor. I started skiing in my early 20s and rented my equipment for three years before I committed and bought my own skis and boots. Which was a big deal at the time. You can’t rent alpine/hardboot equipment anywhere that I know of and demos days are few and far between. Even less now with the demise of Bomber. 

I never used soft boots. I went directly from skiing to alpine/hardboots. The twist and skid method of getting down the hill or slamming into the bank of a run looked inelegant to me and I wasn’t interested in the least. But then I saw someone in what I thought were ski boots carve down a run at Kirkwood. It was so graceful to see but I didn’t personally know a single soul who was into it. Even back then it was not an easy sport to get into.  There was no equipment like that to be seen in the shops and the staff was not encouraging as a matter of course. So it took a few  years of online research with a lot of procrastinating in between and talking with Michelle, before I finally hit send. And that was with the help of Bomber. 

But the average young person does not have the patience for that. Sure they’ll say those carves are beautiful man, and then go back to skidding down the hill. 

So, anyways:

Board, hard boots and bindings: $1,300 maybe. (And yeah, I know about buying used, but there are sizing issues and It’s intimidating and inconvenient for someone new to the sport. Most people want to talk about equipment to someone in person at the a shop. You can’t do that with alpine.)

Daily lift ticket (at Mammoth) $125 

And then there’s lodging and transportation.

So unless the young person has a trust fund, incredibly cheap rent and/or no college debt, it’s no longer close to being affordable.

But it’s affecting skiing and soft boot snowboarding too. In my opinion the major resorts are shooting themselves in the long-term foot with the Ikon and Epic pass system. My costs are already sunk in alpine and ski equipment, so the pass is great for me. But they have upped the daily pass rates through the roof to force more people into buying the season pass.  What beginner is going to spend that kind of money on something that they don’t even know they will enjoy. But for the resorts, receiving all that money upfront is like crack for them and they are not going to give that up. 

With this level of cost and lack of rental or demo equipment, it’s not something a young person or beginner can do on a whim. Consequently both sports are aging. This video explains it. It’s focused on skiing. It’s not 100% accurate and doesn’t apply to every resort in the country. But it gives a good overview on how many of the resorts are beginning to struggle. 
 

 

[Jackb4321]

This is my first time commenting on this forum. I started skiing 12 years ago and enjoyed it a lot. I started skiing 6 days a week three years ago at a small hill in Ontario Called Brimacombe with only 300 ft vertical. I had always seen people on alpine boards, I had always really wanted to try it. It wasn’t until the winter of 2019 when I decided I wanted to try snowboarding, this decision came from starting to get bored of skiing. I felt like I couldn’t really improve any more and the hill was getting boring after skiing there so much. I was very lucky to get a great deal on a used Kessler from another member at the hill, I then went to yyz Canuck that night and got new boots and bindings. The next night I was out and riding, I was on my own for the first night never even been on a board before no clue on how to do it. I pointed it down the hill and by the end of the night I was able to make it down without falling. Now I am hooked! 
 

Enough about how I got into snowboarding, let’s talk about the future of alpine! 
 

At my hill there are at least 20+ alpine riders of all ages. We have older members who ride alpine and have young members who are riding alpine. I think compared to the big hills/ mountains why we have a lot of alpine riders is because of how much vertical and amount of quality runs we have at our hill. Like me a lot of us like to ride skis/soft boots as our primary and then have transitioned to alpine riding to give us a new challenge and make the hill interesting and challenging again. I agree with a lot of points this thread has brought up, but my opinion is that alpine is not for everyone. I believe this because to ride alpine you have to have a different mindset to the regular rider you see at the hill. Most of us all crave the speed and the feeling of getting as low as possible to the snow. Most riders in my opinion are just wanting to go out and have fun with friends and are not concerned about progression and they also don’t get enough days out on the snow to really progress in the sport. But all the alpine riders I know all want to go out and have fun with there friends while working on the skills to become better riders. 
 

In my opinion to bring people into alpine is very hard because the only people that are looking to get into it are the higher skilled skiers/boarders. The riders looking for the most out of there gear to push themselves to the limit. 
 

I agree with the point you guys have made about soft boot gear becoming so advanced that you can carve very aggressive and low on soft boots which is really the main reason to go to hard boots so why switch. Once again goes back to making the hills more exciting and challenging agains. 
 

I could see alpine becoming more popular at the smaller hills then at the bigger hills to just make it more fun and exciting. 

[SunSurfer]

The elephant in the room is global heating, not just for the future of alpine snowboarding, but mountain based snow sport in general.

[softbootsurfer]

oops, some softbooters can carry speed...add that Now, some Like to throw in a few Carves now and then, that is Fun to see

 

[inkaholic]

On 4/25/2020 at 8:24 PM, big mario said:

Inky needs to have a peek at that Berthod clip, he might be in it

Thanks Happy Bob!

Mario

Not in it but I was there for my first comp. Thanks for posting this Happy Bob! 

Ink