Future of alpine

[John Gilmour]

I'll go with SoftbootSurfers observation about people going back to skiing. Used to be Alpine boards delivered a carving experience that was far superior to skiing. Now ...not such a huge gap. Again skiings versality in carved shapes, tech derived from snowboards , skis that carve well, skis that handle powder with as much surface area as similar length snowboards , and terrain versatility.... skiing is back in vogue. This past year I even felt like getting on some Palmer P02 skis just for the heck of it.

But it's not just a wild guess, it's an observation, I get on lifts with people on skis that told me they used to carve on alpine and went back to Skiing. 

The only thing I see to help alpine is Splitboarding- the fastest growing niche. Because these guys are trying to innovate and not just accept a mediocre  status quo. In 1985 I helps a friend write his MIT thesis for Mechanical Engineering, he won the MIT prize that year and cited me, and split the prize money with me. His  thesis was making a releasable snowboard binding. We had two designs a sequential release and a simultaneous coupled release. Only now do I see a real world application for split boarding in avalanche areas, coupled to an Avalanche  bag rip cord. These guys need a releasable lightweight binding and hardboots. No one wants to be permanently  strapped into a split board while skinning  and caught in an slide.

If I could get a comfortable lightweight set of boots for alpine  that didn't give me shin bang, heel pain, sixth toe pain... that would be nice. When you rail at high angles, it's not like there is so much pressure on the bottom on your foot as on the side, and the padding in some boots just is not sufficient to prevent pain while pulling g-s and loading that part of your foot. A soft boot gives some, plus they are replaced frequently enough that they don't get packed out. But softboots don't work well for splitting on double fall line terrain.

I want a hard boot that is in the same weight range as the randonee boots, one that is versatile. I started working on one this year, contacted one of the guys who worked on the flexor comp , and I want to make a better lighter more versatile binding. That would make me so much happier to be on hardboots and alpine again.

I park very close to the lifts. Sometimes I wear a set of Ugg boots, carry softboots inside my pack, strap another pair of hardboots on the outside of my pack, carry an alpine board and a  Jones Hovercraft ...  and ride Alpine in the Morning, and swap to soft when it gets clumpy. Did that 2 seasons ago.

But three sets of boots? Because nothing walks easily so I go with Uggs- sometimes in loose soft boots. But still swapping boots (and insoles) and socks, when I want to swap boards is annoying. I don't want to ride hardboots all day- I used to in the Northeast because the snow can be bullet proof all day and never get very clumpy, but in the West ...nope.

But I look at split borders and randonee skiers happily walking in their lightweight boots. That makes sense to me. I was at Fin Doyles place in spring of 2019, looking at his cool solar tracking device he was developing,  and we were talking about split boarding and he also believes that the boots we rode were too heavy and too stiff and that he rides better on his lightweight hardboots for splitting than he ever did in traditional hardboots. That's in part why I favored my Nordica TR-9  randonee boots while I was on the East coast.

So I think split boarding with lightweight plastic and CF touring boots with lighter bindings will be the only thing to bring back alpine. Because it will introduce lightweight hardboots that aren't overly stiff (if you cut them) to snowboarders who swore by softboots and now see the advantages of a hard boot when asked to do multiple disciplines... like Crampons.

IF people who liked softboots try those hard boots,

IF their carving improves on them

and maybe  

IF on harder days they decide to use those boots on an Alpine deck with plate bindings ...we might have a resurgence , but that is a lot of "IFs".

If I could have one set of boots that worked for both, and maybe skiing too..and boards that were just as light as naked boards without bindings... I'd happily carry 2 or 3  boards (heck maybe skis once in a while) to the hill and ride Alpine every morning... and seriously I walk only about 100 feet to the gondola...plus there is almost zero board theft at aspen so I don't bother locking anything. But carrying 3 boards with bindings sucks no matter how short the distance. I was so happy when Catek came out with the disc system... that made it a lot easier..but still the binding overhang could vary from board to board as the angles changed and width under foot.

I want the binding to be integrated mostly into the boot. I want boots that know what they they are being clipped into and adjust release settings automatically to what you ahem them in, crampons (no release) Snowshoes (release) Skis (release) snowboard (probably not releasing except in some conditions).  A multi purpose hard boot like that....well that might even attract some skiers to try Alpine.

So for me, its the hardboot's situation weight, comfort , short time to packing out liners (My Head Stratos packed  out in 15 days) , shin bang, little availability, little selection, difficulty to get a good custom fit , and low traction in ice .... thats what you have to fix for Alpine to get any growth .  

As pessimistic as it sounds,

I'm trying to get Alpine noticed.

I raced the last 3 GS races in Aspen this year. And a few said they would race next year...a few threatened to race this year but did not.... because the skier courses weren't very conducive to snowboarding. But at last I got a few people thinking about it. I won more points for my team than any of the skiers. And that got the people who do both to start thinking about points. (which is why I might ski a bit, but I don't think I'll be competitive in that) .

 

The other side of the coin... Throw Alpine races and have REAL Prize money..... that would be huge help. If someone sees $5000 or $10,000 as a prize, it gets people to consider it. But unless Jeff Bezos starts snowboarding .....

IMHO It's up to splitboard boots and bindings. And the current split board bindings don't allow for high stance angles...and they have heel cups that aren't good for high lean angles either...sigh.....

Stay safe 

Edited April 19, 2020 by John Gilmour

[philw]

On 4/17/2020 at 5:14 PM, softbootsurfer said:

True Jack, yet they were all very good at Carving, even on that old equipment...most went back because they just like the versatility of two planks, they don't say anything bad about it...

If you look at old videos you can see how people were riding. They were certainly good, but they were not generally all that good by today's standards. Arm-waving through to Craig's knee-tuck, we were trying hard to get that old gear to perform.

Personally I can't' see me ever going back to skiing. Well I suppose I might if they make hard boots on snowboards illegal or something

[b0ardski]

burton says alpine is dead, guess I'll go to my grave as a necromancer, (still riding 25 yr old stepins which should last me till I'm doddering so much I'll have to revert to 2 edges. I refuse to give up stepins and alpine style, especially as I approach geriatric status)

burton said stepins suck, and they were partially right because all of burton's stepins did suck, including their newly revamped Device called stepon.

Phantoms are awesome but development stopped at 30* so I won't use them, (gorilla stance hurts my hip and knee when I ride, aint gonna happen)

rando boots are the way forward just like they were 30 yrs ago,

still love my Nordica TR9s and SBH but they are heavy weight history

ps thanks for inventing the high back John, but I gave those up in '89  because back country boots didn't need them and ratchet straps suck

Edited April 19, 2020 by b0ardski

[softbootsurfer]

Boardski... Burton stopped making products that did not sell, their new Step In/ On has some good reviews, I also know some good riders that Love them, so...let's stop blaming Burton for the so called death of a style that never had a large market to begin with, if there was a reason, you know what it is...Skateboarding and its associated moves, is what happened to Alpine... Jibberish perhaps  or Fakie...

[nuisanceIV]

Convincing people to ride alpine? Man I have a hard enough time convincing people to start working on using their edges!!!

Edited April 20, 2020 by nuisanceIV

[Corey]

You guys know that the Burton ad was sarcastic, from the time when they were still selling alpine gear, right? 

[softbootsurfer]

2 hours ago, Corey said:

You guys know that the Burton ad was sarcastic, from the time when they were still selling alpine gear, right? 

Sure, but since I have been on this site, people have been Blaming Burton for the demise, surely you are aware of that...

[Jack M]

2 hours ago, softbootsurfer said:

Sure, but since I have been on this site, people have been Blaming Burton for the demise, surely you are aware of that...

Burton deserves a lot of credit for promoting Alpine more and longer than any other mainstream manufacturer by a wide margin.  However when they removed the Alpine gear from the catalog in 2002 they effectively removed Alpine from visibility for the vast majority of snowboarders.  It was a sell-out move, and for that they deserve some criticism.

[lowrider]

13 minutes ago, Jack M said:

Burton deserves a lot of credit for promoting Alpine more and longer than any other mainstream manufacturer by a wide margin.  However when they removed the Alpine gear from the catalog in 2002 they effectively removed Alpine from visibility for the vast majority of snowboarders.  It was a sell-out move, and for that they deserve some criticism.

Yeah stupid business move. Quit selling to 70 year old's and  focuse on selling to 4 year old's. Sorry Jack it's the Covid 19 !!! I still shudder when i walk by the Riblet daycare centres but if it gets kids outside you can't complain. Hopefully the coming years will have more people doing family inclusive activities and maybe resorts will have to make more of an effort to make it affordable. 

[TVR]

Interesting take on it...

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by TVR
Mistake

[Corey]

1 hour ago, lowrider said:

Riblet daycare centres

What is that? 

Is that like a McRib? 

[lowrider]

It's like a day care that resorts use to entertain young kids by dragging them around on small Burton boards in a confined space Makes parents think their kid will grow up to be the next Shawn White. Also a promotion seen at ski and snowboard shows. Not likely a feature you would see @ Holiday mountain as the kids would freeze to death before parents returned. More like an ice cap !

[Mr.E]

My point was that we've been lementing the death of Alpine since at least 95, and... well... still not dead yet a quater century later.

 

Good to see folks can still get riled up on the internet, though. 

[Beckmann AG]

1 hour ago, Mr.E said:

and... well... still not dead yet

 

But not exactly thriving.

Failure to thrive can have one, or many causes.

 

The Ngorongoro crater, which formed when a giant volcano exploded and collapsed on itself some two to three million years ago, is 610 m (2,000 ft) deep and its floor covers 260 km2 (100 sq mi).[5] Estimates of the height of the original volcano range from fifteen to nineteen thousand feet (4500 to 5800 metres) high.[8][9] A side effect of this enclosure is that the population of Ngorongoro lions is significantly inbred, with many genetic problems passed from generation to generation. This is due to the very small amount of new bloodlines that enter the local gene pool, as very few migrating male lions enter the crater from the outside. Those who do enter the crater are often prevented from contributing to the gene pool by the crater's male lions, who, because of their large size (the result of an abundant and constant food source), easily expel any outside competitors.

[west carven]

howdy

for me when bruce retires... alpine is dead...

[lordmetroland]

Nice cover-up Beckmann. The source article actually reads:

36 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

The Ngorongoro crater, which formed when Burton Snowboards cruelly and arbitrarily ceased production of alpine snowboard gear, is 610 m (2,000 ft) deep and its floor covers 260 km2 (100 sq mi).[5] Estimates of the height of the original volcano range from fifteen to nineteen thousand feet (4500 to 5800 metres) high.[8][9] A side effect of this enclosure is that the population of Ngorongoro lions is significantly inbred, with many genetic problems passed from generation to generation. This is due to the very small amount of new bloodlines that enter the local gene pool, as very few migrating male lions enter the crater from the outside. Those who do enter the crater are often prevented from contributing to the gene pool by the crater's male lions, who, because of their large size (the result of an abundant and constant food source), easily expel any outside competitors.

 

[Lurch]

1 hour ago, west carven said:

for me when bruce retires... alpine is dead...

He won't be dead, just golfing and motorcycling...and you know Thirst is just across the hill right?

[alpinegirl]

Star Wars riglet park.

Yeah, kids are having fun playing in snow. How horrible. Why would we ever consider allowing kids to have fun playing on a toy?

 

[lowrider]

Lordmetroland and Beckmans posts are pure evidence that the political split we witness in the real world has now  infiltrated another Alpine post. No science to back it up nor reference to CDC or health officials. Will this never end ? Who to trust who's side do i take ?

[Mr.E]

Pretty sure there are more boot and board options I want to ride now than I did in 1995, a similar number of bindings and generally better riders. I think at this point we need to reassess what "thriving" means. I'm totally content, and with kids coming up I'm not worried about the sport when the greys stop ripping.

 

 

[softbootsurfer]

14 hours ago, Jack M said:

Burton deserves a lot of credit for promoting Alpine more and longer than any other mainstream manufacturer by a wide margin.  However when they removed the Alpine gear from the catalog in 2002 they effectively removed Alpine from visibility for the vast majority of snowboarders.  It was a sell-out move, and for that they deserve some criticism.

I am surprised you would say this, actually what happened was Skateboarding and the Tricks associated with it took over, Sims and the early competitions moved that way very quickly, I watched our son, who was 8 at the beginning and who I started Carving and running some local races look at me and tell me " Carving is Boring" see you later, Look at the 1st issue of Transworld, notice 99% of the shots are Tricks, People in the Air...saying Burton sold out is a Cheap Shot...it made no sense from a Business perspective to create product nobody wanted...again if Alpine now includes People Carving in SB as well as HB, then there is a Future and it is Now, I have witnessed it even here, does that somehow diminish HB Racing? No it does not...in fact there is a greater body of possible converts, that once they realize the Fun of Carving in their SB, they can move into HB and Racing as a next step...

[Beckmann AG]

7 hours ago, alpinegirl said:

Star Wars riglet park.

Yeah, kids are having fun playing in snow. How horrible. Why would we ever consider allowing kids to have fun playing on a toy?

 

In the Star Wars® Riglet® universe, does Greedo® scoot first?

---

 'Kids having fun' is just deflection. I mean, who could object to that?

The Riglet® program allows Burton to reduce differentiation between the activity and the brand without seeming sinister.

Joe Camel getting his nose under the kids table, so to speak.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[alpinegirl]

What's wrong with adults having fun too?

Hold on, wait, i think i know what sentence comes next....

Dude, shut up and ride

 

Depends on how you are using the term scoot.

[SunSurfer]

https://www.facebook.com/alpinesnowboardlaboratory/videos/1074635942910900/

Sigi Grabner made an interesting point in the above video on Facebook (a recent link on Alpine SnowBoard Trader group) -

Older riders can still succeed in Alpine Snowboarding because of
- a lower injury rate compared to other snowsports disciplines
- the mental edge required

I'd always thought of alpine boarding as "snowboarding for grown-ups", but primarily because of the ease of the step in bindings (Intec etc) and the emphasis on control and finesse. Until Sigi said it I hadn't really followed the train of thought that follows from watching people like Sigi & JJ Anderson achieve at the highest level in their mid to late 30's and older. Future alpine riders may come from emphasising it as a progression for the riders who want to keep snowboarding but no longer bounce quite the way they used to.

@Beckmann AG comment about inbreeding i.e. not looking beyond the "known", rings true. The Alpine community needs to continue evaluating new ideas/techniques/builders/equipment if it is to stay healthy.

Edited April 22, 2020 by SunSurfer
directly link video, won't embed properly.

[philw]

7 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

.... Until Sigi said it I hadn't really followed the train of thought that follows from watching people like Sigi & JJ Anderson achieve at the highest level in their mid to late 30's and older. Future alpine riders may come from emphasising it as a progression for the riders who want to keep snowboarding but no longer bounce quite the way they used to....

(Just waiting to be unlocked...)

I think it's also worth remembering that much of non-novice snowboarding has a fairly uncertain future. Take half-pipe, for example: once very much something for kids to aspire to, now I've not seen anyone in a pipe for years. Parks.. well they are still there, but I'm unsure they're really significant outside the magazines. Magazines... not much of a future there, I'd say. The more balletic type of snowboarding... really that stuff comes and goes, but broadly it's not relevant for most participants. Dropping cliffs... same thing.

I think then that it's probably a mistake to view the world this way at all.

If you were a competent skier who could rail a turn or two, you could maybe worry about the fact that most skiers aren't competent, and perhaps end up thinking that "competent skiing" is dying a death. That would probably be wrong.

Carving's hugely healthy taken across the world, with the far east leading the charge at the moment. Maybe this is actually the golden age.