Future of alpine

[MR. JOHN DEERE !]

1 hour ago, inkaholic said:

Not in it but I was there for my first comp. Thanks for posting this Happy Bob! 

Ink

#oldguysrip !

[johnasmo]

Finally adding my 2 cents to the thread...

I think the future of recreational alpine is as a progression from softboot carving.

The on-ramps for new alpine riders are either racing or softboot carving, and racing doesn't have the scale to even replace attrition.  Youth racing in most locations is dominated by skiing programs.  Look for all the "XXX ski team" jackets on any weekend.  If your community has any snowboard racing, it's most likely the occasional BX or banked slolom competition.  There might be a snowboard "freestyle team" to put kids into, but the number of communities that offer *any* snowboard racing where alpine gear has an advantage is just too small to grow the sport.

For equipment niches to flourish or at least survive, customers have to want it because it offers some advantage over other available equipment.  There has to be a reason to progress into that equipment, be it specialized auto, motorcycle, biking, boating, ... or skiing and snowboarding.

So what does alpine snowboarding offer a young person that's not interested in PGS or GS snowboard races?  Carving progression.  Some softboot snowboarders will find that they like the feeling of carving turns.  Some will throw money at wider boards and try to do it duck stance.  Some will learn that narrower boards with forward binding angles make it easier and work better for them.

Some of us here just like hardboots over softboots, but IMHO, most of us have both and use hardboots to enable higher binding angles on narrower boards.  It's about the boards and the carving progression they allow, not the choice of footwear.  We choose plates and hardboots because they are the board interface that works best at high angles.

Softboot carving *is* a growing niche within snowboarding.  That's the future market for apline gear, the softboot carvers that want to progress to narrower boards when their progression on wide boards plateaus.  The success of softboot carving is not the death of alpine.  I think it's the feeder to maintain a market for alpine gear.  Yes, when aging alpine riders "progress" to softboot carving, it looks like we're losing ground.  But based on volume, there's more potential for young softboot carvers to come the other way because that's where the love of the carve is growing new participants.

This forum is for alpine enthusiasts, but clearly our own community illustrates the synergy and overlap.  Alpine is a niche in a *growing* carving community.  The growth of the carving community at large is the future of alpine.

[xy9ine]

^on point. carving growth with come primarily from softboots. some will spill over into new hardboot sales, though i think overall that market will shrink as more people discover how capable modern sb gear can be. the n/a market has yet to see the breadth of aggressive sb gear options that Asian markets have enjoyed, but methinks we'll see growth in this sector in short order.  

also: why am i even lurking on a sb site right now?? board has been hung up for 2 months, and the mountain biking is prime. 

 

[VSR-Alex]

New Alpine rider here:

@johnasmo hit the nail on the head.

Progression from soft boots to hard boots for me was indeed a natural evolution from soft boot carving inefficiencies. The body position for heel-side turns just does not feel like a position where I can drive power into the edge. Toe-side turns on soft boot stance angles feel better, but there are disadvantages to these too.

Another reason for the switch was medical. Any hard toe-side carve on non-perfect groomers will blow out my ankles when I hit imperfections on the slope. It does not seem to matter what boots, bindings, or boot modifications I make, it happens. I lost may weeks of riding due to recovery from this. When I get to the point where the boots feel stiff enough to support my ankle, they are already as stiff as a hard boot. Despite what my local hill tries to advertise, perfect grooming does not exist.

Carving progression for me was the desire to experience G-forces akin to roller coasters and race cars. Since progressing with soft boot carving, I reached a wall where I felt like I was not progressing anymore toward my goal. It frustrated me enough to really think about my equipment and technique.

Eventually, I finally came to the realization: soft boots are soft, and they are designed to be soft. Some people can make soft boots work for them for carving. I could not.

Since switching to hard boots, my progression is on the right track again after only 5 days on snow. I really do think that the soft boot carving trend will increase the sales of Alpine gear for those with the desire to push the limits and achieve their goals.

Cheers, and stay safe!

[softbootsurfer]

Seems like a lot or most of the comments here, never reflect the riding conditions, that they are Riding On...I believe that is more than critical, when we talk about what works or doesn't work...It is a fact that Race courses are different than your average area groom for one thing...here in Colorado in general, it is Hero snow conditions, that means the equipment that works for Carving here, is not what Jack and others are typically on Back East, while, up north at Turner, as an example, it can be both with its Elevation as it is...would appreciate folks adding, what they are typically riding on, when saying what and what not works for them equipment wise...Thanks

[VSR-Alex]

Good point, @softbootsurfer.

Carving progression is very dependent on the area in which we ride. I happen to ride mostly in Appalachia, in Virginia and West Virginia. We get the freeze-thaw cycle on a daily basis, so frozen slush in the morning and mashed potatoes in the afternoon. Most of the time, the morning frozen slush is pebbly and bumpy. In order to carve, I need to be able to dig through the bumpy frozen slush. I could not get my soft-boot setup to drive enough pressure into the edge to do that, especially on heel-side turns. The bumpy frozen slush doesn't work well with the flex of a soft-boot on toe-side turns either.

Soft-boots work better for me in the afternoon, but by that time I am not carving. Carving mashed-potato snow is not exactly safe, nor is it real carving; more like slarving. Narrow alpine boards with low-rise noses really don't work well here. I usually break out my Donek Incline in the afternoon for slush fun. I could go either way with the boot selection on the Donek. Soft boots have the ankle flexion we need in soft snow, but I also like the board response and waterproofing (mainly waterproofing) of my hard boots in soft and wet snow.

[softbootsurfer]

Yo Alex, Stoked you're Stoked, sorry if you thought I was referring to Your post, I have mentioned this time and again here through the years, we need to explain what we ride on, to explain what we ride on ...Especially all those Equipment Reviews...my Equipment would not work at all back east, then again, I don't live back east...

[philw]

On 5/26/2020 at 10:38 PM, softbootsurfer said:

...we need to explain what we ride on, to explain what we ride on ...Especially all those Equipment Reviews...my Equipment would not work at all back east, then again, I don't live back east...

Well yes. I learned where hard gear makes snowboards work very well. My "out West" mates don't even need to ride in the sort of conditions I thought were "good". Once you learn, skill can  make up the difference, either way.

That said, there's also a significant fashion influence which affects this type of thing. My evidence is be rear-entry ski boots, and MTB use in the Fens.





 

[softbootsurfer]

that's great Phil...however I believe the people with Shoulder injuries and broken Ankles and Legs would understand what I wrote, Conditions play a role in equipment regardless how good you are...

[CharlieR]

I'll add my perspective as a soft boot snowboarder who loves to carve. The two biggest barriers for me have been the cost and the absence of retail store stocking alpine equipment (and who have people knowledgeable in the area).

A little bit about myself. I live in Australia. I've been snowboarding for about eleven years now. When I started my parents put me into my local mountains club where I settled into training and racing snowboard cross. I like to think that my soft boot carving is pretty solid after a number of years riding in the club. I raced in Europa Cup events for a couple years before leaving competition behind when I started my university studies. The reason I never really considered alpine at the time was that there weren't any coaches (and few races) in my local area.

As for why I don't get into alpine snowboarding today:

Firstly, I am currently a full-time student. When I get to the snow, I definitely spend most my time carving groomers, but I also like to ride the jump line in the park and smash down a tree line of piste. Alpine equipment would be amazing for one of those, but I would still need to maintain soft boot equipment to really enjoy the others. If AU$1500 wasn't a big deal for me, I would happily invest in alpine equipment, but given its niche use, can't justify it at the moment. I recently replace my six-year-old board and (having already put aside getting alpine equipment) faced the dilemma of balancing the use cases when choosing a board that would work well across the board. (I ended up buying a Korua Tranny Finder (157cm)).

Secondly, none of the retail stores in my area sell alpine equipment and have staff who know what they are talking about. There is one store which stocks a couple of alpine boards, but I haven't been there when the staff had any clue about them. (I might have just been unlucky). To be honest, though, I haven't gone out of my way to search for retailers and there probably are some around the place.

Ultimately, I am sure I will get an alpine board in the future. Once I graduate and have a full-time job, it shouldn't be too hard to justify AU$1500 for a long term hobby.

[BlueB]

Hi Charlie, 

Believe it or not, hard boots, plates and some alpine boards, work just fine in the park and off-piste... 

 

[*Ace*]

I am a big fan of self teaching. You don't need a teacher or coach if you already know the concepts or snow sliding and carving. Get out there and experiment. Buy a cheap setup and get after it. My first alpine setup when getting back into hardboots was $200 for an old Burton PJ6 and rear entry ski boots.

Fake it until you make it!

[John Gilmour]

13 hours ago, *Ace* said:

I am a big fan of self teaching. You don't need a teacher or coach if you already know the concepts or snow sliding and carving. Get out there and experiment. Buy a cheap setup and get after it. My first alpine setup when getting back into hardboots was $200 for an old Burton PJ6 and rear entry ski boots.

Fake it until you make it!

I am for the most part self taught. But the few times I took lessons even after having riding for 3-4 years were helpful to have a few tricks passed along.

I do feel many alpine carvers tend to plateau and get stuck, often thinking that that is the limit of their talent...and over the years as they age thinking that they can never get to be as good as they once were, "if only I was 30 again". But the reality is when someone is dialed in better and told what to look for and how to "flow" after into or even attack a turn then" flow" they get better than they were even when they were younger, stronger , with better reflexes.

I'm not unlike so many others in that I like to stick with what works, but I still try new things and trends. There was a time when a 18" stance was considered really too "wide".

One thing I wanted to develop in the 1990s was a feedback system through the board that let you know what direction and speed to pressure the board for top performance. It's possible to measure edge pressure , velocity, Decamber, G-force and slope inclination ...and to give feedback to riders. Also it's possible to record a professional riders inputs and then try to emulate that rider or say a few riders that have a similar body build and flexibility to your own- by playing back that ride.  The pro riders might have to stay closer to the middle  of the run and the person emulating might be able to err to say anywhere in the middle 3 fifths of the run.

That's sorta cool. 

So let's say you found yourself on upper walking boss at Loon on the East coast, or Gondolier at Stowe, white caps at Waterville Valley, Ruthies run in Aspen, Centennial at Beaver Creek, Sneakys at Snowmass, on a decent packed powder day.

 

Ahem of course the snow isn't exactly the same day to day or even run to run , the board and bindings  and boots wouldn't be identical or even buckled the same... but you would still get closer than with no feedback at all. 

At the Reebok Sports Club in NYC in the 1990s  I rode the largest snowboard simulator ... it wasn't just a rolling carpet, it moved in all directions, pitched, yawed and tilted... In the simulation I rode behind Kevin Delaney in Aspen. With the giant screen it felt pretty good. And after riding with Kevin in Aspen... it felt pretty close.

 

maybe we are all in a simulation...or that's the future of Alpine.

 

 

 

[pow4ever]

12 hours ago, John Gilmour said:

I do feel many alpine carvers tend to plateau and get stuck, often thinking that that is the limit of their talent...and over the years as they age thinking that they can never get to be as good as they once were, "if only I was 30 again". But the reality is when someone is dialed in better and told what to look for and how to "flow" after into or even attack a turn then" flow" they get better than they were even when they were younger, stronger , with better reflexes.

Love it; there is hope!

Very interesting on what you say about feedback. 
Snowboard feedback loop today relied heavily on feeling.  Well; that just don't work well for me.
Maybe with today's high precision gyroscope, smart phone plus bunch of VR/AR gears can measure on what "good/bad" are.

The question become what good/bad measurement is?  Are there one size fits all?
Different profile for racing vs free carve maybe. 

a la:  Rocky(feeling) vs Drago(precision lab).

or maybe best of both world

the Drago approach might be better for the mass to be that tide to rise all boat to a base competency.
than Rocky method take you as far as you want to go

 

[b0ardski]

13 hours ago, John Gilmour said:

maybe we are all in a simulation...or that's the future of Alpine.

step in to the multi-axial simulator, click in to the binders, don the VR helmet and we can all ride any run in the world, together on perfect self healing corduroy at any time of year.

[Corey]

Driving simulations don't replace driving. But they are fun when you can't go to Laguna Seca on a Sunday afternoon. 

We Ski on the Wii is my chosen snow sports simulator. Charging into mogul fields is very similar to real life. 

[John Gilmour]

Well let's hope we aren't forced into simulators from global warming...I'm just hoping it advances skill level