Future of alpine

[softbootsurfer]

Clarification  please, Alpine as in Race or Alpine as in Carve

Here in Aspen, Race came and went years ago...

Carving however is not only Cool, I see it All over the Place...and they are All in SB nowadays...

[SunSurfer]

In my experience it's the carving that is cool. The control, the precision, the effortless grace, the "lowness", the sound of ripped snow. Comments from people riding the chair with me over the years
Guy in his 30's having watched me experimenting on a Rad-Air Pinkerman @ Cardrona - MacDougall's: loved the "surf style" carve, wanting to know how it's done.
Girl aged about 10, Cardrona/MacD's: "That is so cool!"
Lady in her 60's in Aspen - Banzai Ridge/Moonshine: "You are poetry in motion."
Teenage ski racer training at Turoa: "That looks like so much fun!"

It was watching great carving from the chairlift that got me into this. Macdougall's lower half is completely chairlift visible. The run I was doing at Turoa runs under the top chairlift. Proudly showing what we've got may be our best promotion.

[SnowFerret]

1 hour ago, SunSurfer said:

In my experience it's the carving that is cool. The control, the precision, the effortless grace, the "lowness", the sound of ripped snow. Comments from people riding the chair with me over the years
Guy in his 30's having watched me experimenting on a Rad-Air Pinkerman @ Cardrona - MacDougall's: loved the "surf style" carve, wanting to know how it's done.
Girl aged about 10, Cardrona/MacD's: "That is so cool!"
Lady in her 60's in Aspen - Banzai Ridge/Moonshine: "You are poetry in motion."
Teenage ski racer training at Turoa: "That looks like so much fun!"

It was watching great carving from the chairlift that got me into this. Macdougall's lower half is completely chairlift visible. The run I was doing at Turoa runs under the top chairlift. Proudly showing what we've got may be our best promotion.

I probably don’t now what I’m talking about, but I think that the demographics to target are ski racers, ex-ski racers, and rec skiers that are interested in carving.  I am friends with a few very good skiers that tried boarding but greatly disliked the feel of softboots. They weren’t aware of alpine snowboarding, but the idea seemed intriguing to most of them since it aligned with how they already skied. A few slalom waterski and were a little more interested.

[FTA2R]

@SunSurfer @Shred Gruumer

 

OK, you guys are, by your own words, cool and inspiring - you're also sort of making my point! Things usually aren't cool b/c they deem themselves to be! I don't know either of you but I'll assume you both are badass riders and make carving look awesome - at least in person. I've got no issue with that....but, I'll still call you outliers and anecdotal evidence when it comes to the masses saying that hardbooting is cool. Sure, you may get the chance to make the "alpine elevator pitch" to some kids after they see you ride, and nothing's wrong with that, but why can't we just be at peace with certain (not all) perceptions of our sport and acknowledge that the youth generally don't aprire to be awesome in hardboots. They wanna jib, jump, huck, and all that. And why shouldn't they - they're young and invincible, lol, they haven't gone through herniated discs, strains, sprains, etc (if they do, it's a lot quicker recovery). 

All the members on this site really dig hardboots, but it's a fact that we are a fringe discipline of the sport. We can debate all day what defines "cool" but that doesn't serve any purpose except to appease those who are having a hard time accepting this. 

[Corey]

I've stopped singing the praises of hardbooting to anyone.  If someone asks, I'll enthusiastically guide them here or try to help them, but most recoil at the thought of a used board costing $200.  That ends the discussion rather quickly as they really won't like the process to figure out boots!  

If someone isn't strongly internally motivated, they'll give up at the first challenge.  

[TVR]

I will, respectfully, disagree, as Jack and I find and get more young kids into the hardboots....  The hardbooting community is growing where we are, in New England up north...

[SunSurfer]

@FTA2R Me, a badass rider???? No, but I can carve a turn or two. And that stands out given the skill level of most skiers and boarders.
Alpine boarding is the dark side of snowboarding. This is not where the in-crowd is. You don't come to it to be cool. You come because you are determined to carve, because you saw someone make a turn in a way you didn't know could be done. And with that goal in mind you work to overcome the various barriers to entry that Corey mentions. This community exists, and has existed for a reasonable period of time, precisely because there are a few people who were determined to learn how to carve and are now hooked on the "hit" of a carved turn.

[philw]

I like the idea of being on the dark side of the dark side... people who are "mainstream" feel safe and comfortable and try to get others to conform to their approach. I'm not like them, so I don't care if they choose to ride slow snowboards.

As far as riding style.. I suppose I'm about as far away from the super-narrow-stance chuck-yourself-at-the-snow people as I am from the cowboy-stance rail-riders. But most snowboarders are holiday skier types and happy to bumble about, mostly side-slipping, with little ambition to ride hard or fast.

I would like to think that I'm in a different group, which isn't defined by footwear or being cool. My mates ride well, almost all of them on soft gear, although no one ever talks about gear.

I do think those guys are right to focus on racing, although not particularly because you need good boots to do it, just because it's about being able to ride well. Racing isn't fashion dependent like half-pipes and rails, most of which seem underused where they still exist. Or "tricks" even, which may appear cool to 13 year old lads but not to the rest of the world.

[softbootsurfer]

so... I will ask again, what is this Conversation about...

Racing Only or Carving, SB also or HB only... Thanks

[Corey]

First post was:

On 2/19/2020 at 4:30 PM, lowrider said:

I personally would appreciate if anyone who attended Montucky CC and has a video of Sean Martins little discussion of the future of alpine would post it to the forum or have Sean repeat it for everyone here.

Sean laid out that he's seeing declining alpine (which most people define as hardboot, see https://www.donek.com/product-category/snowboards/alpine-hardboot/) sales, and that he believes that investing in young racers is the path forward.  Simplifying his speech to one sentence is an insult to what he said, sorry, but it may help to steer this discussion.  

[softbootsurfer]

16 minutes ago, Corey said:

First post was:

Sean laid out that he's seeing declining alpine (which most people define as hardboot, see https://www.donek.com/product-category/snowboards/alpine-hardboot/) sales, and that he believes that investing in young racers is the path forward.  Simplifying his speech to one sentence is an insult to what he said, sorry, but it may help to steer this discussion.  

Thank You Corey...

[trailertrash]

On 4/15/2020 at 9:48 AM, softbootsurfer said:

so... I will ask again, what is this Conversation about...

Racing Only or Carving, SB also or HB only... Thanks

Maybe keep this in mind from the Mission Statement:

Quote

 

Mission Statement:

AlpineSnowboarder.com exists to promote the art and joy of carving a snowboard - that is making clean turns with no skidding, leaving only thin tracks or even trenches behind, in hardboots or softboots.  We recognize that hardboots and alpine boards are the most effective tools for carving at high speed, on the steepest slopes, and on the firmest conditions, but that softboots are very capable of serious carving too.  This is evidenced by the fact that all high level SL/GS racing is done in hardboots.  We welcome all carvers and those soon to be, and we hope you'll give hardboots a try!

 

 

[RCrobar]

Back to the Future .... of Alpine

Raichle Snowboarder boots, re-branded in technicolor mountaineering boots, and Emery Surf bindings started a lot of riders down the Alpine path years ago.  Fast forward to today and you see high end ski touring hard boots and bindings sliding into the split back country world; Atomic Backland and Phantom Bindings. 

In the past season or so the only guys that ask me about my Alpine snowboard set up are guys with high end Atomic Backland type ski boots.  They gravitate more to an all mountain HB set up (read into that a surf board shaped board with plates), more so than a traditional alpine board (read into that a square nose and tail board).  

Their eyes get big when I tell them that there is a trend of split-snowboarders using the boots that they are wearing.

I see more alpine opportunity in really soft plate bindings on a board that someone already owns and backcountry boots as the possible 'gateway drug' leading eventually and possibly to an on piste' alpine specific board.  Back to the Future ... what is old is new again.

Cheers and stay safe out there.

Rob

[softbootsurfer]

well then, the Mission of this site, is Carving according to the above, so the future is, actually in the present, I see it playing out in Korea and Japan, by way of all the West videos on another thread, as well as the gradual increase in Carving interest on our local hills here, none of it however is using HB...then we have, some small pockets throughout the country apparently, that are Racing and therefore using HB, along with a shrinking crew of HB that free ride...with most in that crowd, having gone back to skis, at least here, that has been very much the case...

[BlueB]

Who the hell has gone back to skis? 

It's really funny that you are on a hard booters' site (although accepting our SB carving brethren), constantly pushing soft boot agenda, while in realitiry yourself should be on a nice flexy HB setup... 

[John Gilmour]

Alpine, as in Hardboots that are heavy and Plate Bindings that weigh a ton a $$$ board that is limited to early morning groom or race courses by its flex.... well that is pretty much deader than dead. I don't see it as a growing market segment, no matter how much people tell me. 

Now I have been SUPER wrong before. Like when Jeff Grell of Sims and I talked on the phone in 1983 about the future of snowboarding and whether I should patent the highbak I made from soccer shin guards and I decided so few people would subject themselves to the frozen granular beating most take in the Northeast.At the time Sims was making about 70-150 boards.  We thought sales of snowboards for Sims might be limited to a few hundred boards a year, and maybe double that for Burton. hahaha I was way off.

 

But This time I lived through Alpines multiple attempts at resurgence. And PGS well I think that is so much less interesting that a real GS or Super G. I think that killed it a bit more. BX courses with those drop starts... that would kill Alpine  by its flex pattern even if you have a rounded tail with hardboots. The courses banked turns no longer- so less advantage for Alpine - the jumps got hairier.

I was the first person to convert his Sims pre-highbak bindings to Hardboots on the East coast. I had to become a Koflach dealer to order the Koflach Valluga 4000 lite randonee boots because there were none in the USA. So I initially started hard booting in what was a Sims 1500 FE swallowtail. There were ZERO racing boards at the time. It was All Softboots with no hardbooters. The only Hardbooter to make it look cool (and he did an amazing job) was Damian Saunders of Avalanche who rode a pair of the Koflach Valluga Lite early on with Avalanche Plate "uni Bindings"  and mostly later  in the Yellow and white Koflach Albona boot which I also switched to.  (See Snowboarders in Exile Movie) .

So much for "influencers". He was doing multiple backflips on hardboots when no one else was doing a double back flip, he was super funny, very cool, covered in hot chicks, married a Penthouse model, owned a nightclub full of rubber and pimp and hoe nights.... Where were the people lined up for hardboots? Sure that was later.... so let's go back in time to before hardboots again.

 I started the Worlds first snowboard camp in Tignes Val D'Isere and advertised in International Snowboard Magazine (so small in circulation it was on newsprint ) I started a company called JASBAR sport which stood for John (Gilmour) and Steve (Day, a friend from MIT)  Bogue All Retailers - just because we wanted to buy skis and snowboards for ourselves at wholesale prices and sell a bunch to cover our snow habit without having a brick and mortar store.

 Jeff Grell agreed to teach at the snowboard camp , but I had fewer than 10 people sign up- most were skiers who liked the good deal. A two week trip $714 for airfare from Boston, all lifts , airport transfers lodging and breakfasts - so sadly, I had to tell Jeff I couldn't cover his costs. I couldn't do a halfpipe in the USA because of liability- they wouldn't even allow kickers!

Over a phone conversation , Jeff and I discussed the design of the worlds first half pipe, Jeff sketched it and sent the drawing  to me which showed we were pretty much on the same page. It had low walls and a lot of flat bottom  space at the top and as you went down it got closer together and blew out into a huge  bowl with lots of vert at the bottom.  The reason I wanted a bowl at the end was to make it look like pool riding, and It was influenced by Campo Grande skateboard park in Brazil where I used to ride about 5 years earlier.

Again, I thought the halfpipe thing was an even smaller oddity. Too hard and expensive to maintain. And so few people would have the skills to do it, and enough days on the hill to master it that it was just a novelty. HA ha ha. SOOOOO Wrong I was.

But that was predicting a future with no past of the same sport.

Now we have a past to refer to. I tried to push hard boots on people when they were riding in construction boots in 1983. AND STILL I couldn't get people to give up the "comfort" (sarcastically) of riding in soft boots- I rode with LL Bean boots when I started and so the switch happened rafter only  4 days of LL bean boots because of the pain on top of my foot from the fastex buckles (The SIMS binding  bails weren't made until high-baks came out). The heel of the Valluga fit perfectly into the heel cup of the soft boots- no need for a high-bak. I only made the high-bak so my friends could try snowboarding in their winter boots. I thought they would buy hardboots after getting hooked, But they were not interested in going back to a cold , heavy, stiff flexing plastic boot that they identified with skiing and not surfing.

Plus there is the cost of the gear. A good Alpine board isn't cheap- a Donek Madd Killer runs about a grand without $600 boots and expensive bindings and you could buy a pretty good complete Softboot set up for under a grand.

Getting a skier who is accomplished at racing and trying to get them into Alpine snowboard carving is a lot like taking a guy out of top Ferrari that also has the ability to run in bumps and putting them  in a slammed to ground Honda Civic with nitrous that is limited to a few trails and really is at its best in the morning. 

Getting kids into it is hard as they look at their other friends riding together on softboots and feel excluded on their hardboots- or worse ...weird. Kids don't like to feel weird- too much peer pressure.  I can't even get my Godson's dad to let me put his son in hardboots because he doesn't want him to get distracted from freestyle . It might as well be ballet skiing.

Now those ARE perceptions. I personally don't care what people think.

 Or that I look odd being the only one on the mountain  in hardboots. I know I can ride well in hardboots. So why am I not on hardboots more?  I used to ride in soft boots for less than 5 days a year, now it has flip flopped even worse with only 10,000 vertical feet last year.

I feel that the current flex patterns of good softboots in good bindings on an above average board are good enough to allow for performance riding, carving  and fun. This was not often the case 12 years ago. But the comfort factor in softboots and additional support, improved internal heel retention , heat moldable liners, ankle donuts,  made in the last 4 years is , well... insanely good. You can release BOAS like Hardboot buckles to give your feet some blood on the way up the chairlift. Plus you can rail on softboots comfortably in anything remotely resembling packed powder... on frozen granular... things favor Hardboots. and in soft snow like after a dump, the softboots and softer flexing non submarining non alpine boards are a better choice.

Softboots are warmer. Easier to walk in, and easier to get a "custom fit" in.  Now, I don my hard boots or soft boots on the gondola ride up, and doff them on the gondola ride down. I rarely walk around town in either. But even so... I prefer the softboots for walking around in the lodge even if its just a few steps. 

And because of these things.....  I rode my hardboots in (3) GS races this year and ZERO runs on the slope free riding.  If I had more days on snow- or days on firmer snow, I would have ridden alpine. It takes me a few days on snow in softboots to ease into hardboots every season. I rode Alpine because some of the ski race courses in Aspen would have not been possible in softboots, which is why Zero softbooters entered. I did do one of my two race runs on a GS  in softboots on a powder board at thunder bowl at Aspen Highlands this year, and it was a struggle to survive the course, and that the only reason I swapped to Alpine on the next run.

Alpine snowboarding is BY FAR the SUPERIOR workout.  You want leg strength? Alpine builds it faster than anything else but you will feel a lot of fatigue ripping 40+ mph turns all day on groomers. Plus hard snow or injected courses pretty much demand it. 

The reality is, soft boot snowboarding now can deliver enough carving pleasure and thrill that you don't have to buy an Alpine set up anymore to have fun carving. 

And that is why Alpine will probably never recover.

I ran snowmobiles for ESPN Winter X games this year, I brought the top riders to top of the halfpipe , to the big air, and the knuckle huck this year. I brought SEB up (SMS graduate) who win the knuckle huck , also the top Japanese riders (Who consistently ripped gorgeous carves after their landings) and saw more soft boot carving than ever by athletes... but again I doubt this will translate into hardboot and Alpine board sales.

However, if a person learns to carve at a high level  on softboots in good snow, and lives in an area with very hard snow for most of the days of the year ( Vermont , Maine, Montreal area)...I could see that feed into sales. but again marginal sales as it simply is more fun to ride on good snow than frozen granular I tend to wait for packed powder and avoid days which have had no snow for the previous 2 weeks.

But hell. I love Alpine. I am even thinking about how I would design the next Alpine board and the slopes have been closed for a month.

 

[*Ace*]

Wow, so many firsts. It's almost...hard to believe.

 

Question for riders who freecarve and race. How many people come up to you after you run a set of gates and say "That looks like fun! What is that and how do I try it?" How many times are you approached when freecarving?

While racing might be fun, it certainly doesn't look fun to me.

[softbootsurfer]

10 hours ago, BlueB said:

Who the hell has gone back to skis? 

It's really funny that you are on a hard booters' site (although accepting our SB carving brethren), constantly pushing soft boot agenda, while in realitiry yourself should be on a nice flexy HB setup... 

I am simply putting down my Observations, not pushing anything, there used to be 40 to 50 people at Milkland, HB Carving was rampant, most of those people, from the Butcher, to Curly, to Skip, to Wayne, to Most all, as I said, have gone back to Skiing, really fed up with this "He has a SB agenda", I love Carving a Snowboard, I Love watching people regardless equipment Carving...Read my Post for what it says, it is simply my Observations over the last 35 years Here in Aspen OK?

[Jack M]

1 hour ago, softbootsurfer said:

I am simply putting down my Observations, not pushing anything, there used to be 40 to 50 people at Milkland, HB Carving was rampant, most of those people, from the Butcher, to Curly, to Skip, to Wayne, to Most all, as I said, have gone back to Skiing, really fed up with this "He has a SB agenda", I love Carving a Snowboard, I Love watching people regardless equipment Carving...Read my Post for what it says, it is simply my Observations over the last 35 years Here in Aspen OK?

That was back when freeride gear wasn't very good for carving, so hardboots were more of a necessity.  Now, freeride gear is more than up to the task on the hero conditions and gentle slopes of Buttermilk, so hardboots have disappeared there.  It's no mystery, and has little to do with the state of alpine worldwide.

I have known some snowboarders who were once good hardbooters who went back to skis or softboots.  Most of these people I'd estimate were never totally passionate about it, or were perhaps burnt out on serious racing.  Or never had properly fitted boots.  I've also known softbooters who went back to skis.  One of my friends like this told me, "I don't want to be that 40 year old on a snowboard."  Ouch!

[Jack M]

4 hours ago, *Ace* said:

Question for riders who freecarve and race. How many people come up to you after you run a set of gates and say "That looks like fun! What is that and how do I try it?" How many times are you approached when freecarving?

While racing might be fun, it certainly doesn't look fun to me.

I've had softbooter kids who were racing in the same event as me compliment my riding and express interest.  I've been at races and had the usual conversations on the chairlift with interested softbooters and skiers, with my bib on.  I don't think people who are actually standing next to a race spectating would dare interrupt and distract a competitor after a run to ask such questions.

Fun is a secondary in racing.  The primary goals are the same as any other competition - doing your personal best and defeating others.  Overcoming fear, pushing yourself, laying down a good clean run and getting a competitive time is really fun.  I wasn't a very competitive person by nature growing up, so I wasn't really attracted to racing until later in life.  I liked watching it though.

[lordmetroland]

1 hour ago, Jack M said:

One of my friends like this told me, "I don't want to be that 40 year old on a snowboard."  Ouch!

F*** me, what I wouldn't give to be a "40 year old on a snowboard..."

[softbootsurfer]

1 hour ago, Jack M said:

That was back when freeride gear wasn't very good for carving, so hardboots were more of a necessity.  Now, freeride gear is more than up to the task on the hero conditions and gentle slopes of Buttermilk, so hardboots have disappeared there.  It's no mystery, and has little to do with the state of alpine worldwide.

I have known some snowboarders who were once good hardbooters who went back to skis or softboots.  Most of these people I'd estimate were never totally passionate about it, or were perhaps burnt out on serious racing.  Or never had properly fitted boots.  I've also known softbooters who went back to skis.  One of my friends like this told me, "I don't want to be that 40 year old on a snowboard."  Ouch!

True Jack, yet they were all very good at Carving, even on that old equipment...most went back because they just like the versatility of two planks, they don't say anything bad about it, they just prefer that now, I can't speak for other places around the world, I know Dave and his daughter from the midwest have a program, Dave, with his Boys from Steamboat has an exceptional program, while You apparently have one where you are, I wish you all well, my observation is just that, Milkand is a fun place to Carve turns, if Alpine now includes SB Carvers, then I feel it is growing here as well, as I see a lot more Snowboarders Carving turns, that is a Fun thing to see after so many years of rejection here...

[Chouinard]

[Mr.E]

Nabbed from Facebook:

 

 

[John Gilmour]

On 4/17/2020 at 4:26 AM, *Ace* said:

Wow, so many firsts. It's almost...hard to believe.

I wouldn't believe it either except it happened to me. Brian Hipona, a  coach at the winter X games can verify this stuff he was a customer of mine in 1988. he saw all the media, and stuff that I had done before the first color magazine format for snowboarding even came out. Some people don't believe that I ever rode hard boots.

Believe what ever you think is right in your gut instead of actual facts and stuff that people actually did. Feel free to make up your own history...like some old mustached German guy in the 1940's. 

I'm dealing with a downhiller, talking smack about me, who would like to re-write history in a podcast- despite the fact that every competitor who was there conflicts with his story. But people might believe him in their gut.

How about some other "firsts"?  I spec'd biased FORWARD camber on the Madd Boards. That was the first time people messed with camber profiles.

I also applied Hi-fi principles to control vibration from turntables to snowboards.

I also put rubber sheeting to absorb vibration in the boards , I spec'd alternating the types of wood in the core to reduce vibration across the board. We raised the resonant frequency of the board so it wouldn't hop and chop out in a turn, I fixed all the delamination issues of having aluminum, steel fiberglass, rubber sheeting, and carbon all coming together in less than inch.

I even applied "anti-skate" turntable methods to my riding.

But don't believe me. Make something up instead. Sorry just a bit annoyed right now without snow.