Growth in our sport?

[dredman]

I had the opportunity to meet with Sean from @Donek today, got a great tour of his mad scientist lab and had some great discussions.  I could go on and on about how amazing of a production facility he has built/designed and the reduced environmental impacts he is quietly doing or the amazing build tolerances he is using, on and on and on... but the topic I really want to get rolling around in everyone’s head is how do we help this sport grow in the US/Canada?  

For those of you that have been to a carving session, it feels like a family reunion, with a family that has not reproduced, at all, ever...  Each year one of the family joins the gray/no hair club...  There are lots of Lone Wolf Carvers out there, and a few areas that have a hand full of carvers... If we keep this up, eventually this sport will be extinct in North America, and the straggler will be smuggling in gear from overseas to feed their habits.  

So, my question to all of you is how do we as individual and as a group help this sport grow and be sustainable.  Let’s hear your ideas!

Thanks, 

David

[b0ardski]

get aasi to acknowledge it?

[dredman]

22 minutes ago, b0ardski said:

get aasi to acknowledge it?

How do we do that?

[barryj]

A perplexing  question no doubt....... it does seem like - Just Us Grey Beards Out There!

Where are the Young Bloods??

Maybe another way of asking the same thing is why or how is the Asian market so much more prolific....in numbers of Asian board companies making mass produced Alpine boards/boots/bindings...and selling out same season!,  in number of Alpine riders,  in number of  female Alpine riders. in number of Alpine events/races/sponsors......

How is it there's standing room only when a Japanese Team rider gives EC/Body Sliding/Carving carpet demos?

Etc, etc.......

  

[Corey]

Every single person that's highly interested has balked at even the most basic gear costs. Donek did their Pilot series to help, but I don't know if they really took off. 

I keep a loaner board/bindings for people to try, have yet to convince anyone to actually get on it.  Shame. 

The Callens had a neat idea marketing hardboots for all-mountain riding. They're not just for the race course! 

[Beckmann AG]

1. Determine why it lacks appeal among 'normal' folk.

Hint: it often looks a bit odd, and there's a detectable amount of 'specialness' involved.

2. Make it more accessible in terms of both cost, availability, and function.  If the camel can't get it's nose under the hardboot tent, it will find another tent with looser fabric.

3. You (Dredman) had a commendable event this year: 

So how do you leverage that kind of mountain access to a) bring in 'qualified' outsiders, and b) provide enough exposure to the product to set the hook?

4. The proper steps to draw the unsuspecting into a cult are relatively well known. Just copy the more successful practices.

 

[David Kirk]

I think one of the core issues is that it doesn't matter what gear you are riding (boards or skis) spending time on groomers isn't the cool thing to do. Sure if you are a ski racer running gates you rail turns on groomers but most people on the hill aspire to move away from the groomers and onto the steeps and bumps or park. The "good/cool guys" on the hill only use a groomer to get back to the lift.

Couple this with the fact that most snowboarders get into snowboarding for the freestyle/freeride aspects of the sport.....and these activities do not take place on groomed snow. Groomers aren't cool.

So....IMO.....the way to get more people on alpine boards is to appeal to those people who are predisposed to wanting to spend time on groomers and to find a more fun way to do it. In my mind this means skiers. They are comfortable with the boots and the forward stance and they appreciate a perfectly carved turn on groomed snow.

I was level III AASI instructor years ago and rode hard boots full time. I taught a good number of fellow instructors how to carve on alpine gear but 9 times out of 10 it was ski instructors, and not snowboard, that wanted to learn how to do it.

Target people who like spending time carving turns and put them on one ski instead of two and they'll have a ball.....trying to take a 22 year old kid who uses soft boots set at 5° out of the park and steeps and putting them on a groomer will seldom work.

My 2 cents.

dave

[AgassizSkidder]

At my local hill there are a lot of softie carvers but I only see one other guy on hardboots and he used to race. Most of the times he is on his skis with his family. I tried to get my wife and daughter into hardboots and they hated it. I swapped out my liners this year and it took a month of riding before I stopped hating the boots again. 

 

The gear is heavy, expensive and a giant pain to dial in and the more you improve, the more you tinker with everything! All reasons I love it. So, I think we need to market to engineering students to bring in young blood and lighter boots! 

 

[AcousticBoarder]

It's definitely a catch 22. I think people are interested, or atleast around here they are, but in order to peak that interest you need exposure. The problem is there are few of us and we don't like to ride when/where it is busy. Ccase in point, our big carving convention this year was a private event at a lesser known mountain, off the beaten path, that we rented out. This is not to say it was not amazing because it was, but for the sake of this argument, it did very little to grow our sport. Likewise, the gear is nowhere to be seen so it can't just speak for itself either. 

If we manage to get someone interested though with the minimal publicity or marketing we have, how would they get into it? The gear is very expensive, even used gear when compared to soft gear, and is inheritly complicated and finicky. There's no rentals at the local board shop, and even if there were, I don't think there is a single one of us here who was able to get their gear setup perfectly in their first season, let alone first day, even if we did have help. Many of us are still tinkering years later. So there is no easy way into it, making the first step incredibly difficult. 

If we can get someone interested and trying the equipment, they wouldn't just abandon their other setups immediately either, so they likely still want to devote time and money on skiing or softboots, as well as not wanting to skip conditions for them. So if they can get the first step of gear, how would they be able to spend time and resources on perfecting unless they feel the hook right away? 

I too think the Callen's had a good thing started with the groomer days and all mountain advertising rather than race specific. But honestly, when/ in what conditions is the best time to break out the alpine gear? Early morning groom, mid week. Why? Low crowds, untouched groomers because most, especially the young blood, don't want to get up that early to get ready and be there before the lifts open and take time off in the week. It gets crowded around 10 or 11, especially on weekends, when the conditions deteriorate, and many of us throe in the towel. Again, we have the problem with exposure. 

The trend I do see aiding us is people like @Ryan Knapton who are doing some serious carving and generating publicity for carving, but in soft boots, and with some relation for the park rats. Here there is an easier entrance which for some might just be the gateway drug into hardboot setups. If we want to grow our sport, we may want to consider partnering with people like Ryan (as Donek and to some extent the Callens have done). Alternatively, if there is one among us with the right personality and resources available, they may want to work to becoming an internet sensation where time and distance no longer matter in generating exposure, especially with the younger crowds who utilize the internet more.

I myself am actually young blood, so I wasn't around at the time, but how did snowboarding itself start and become mainstream? How was it marketed? How was word spread? How did people get into it? There may be something here we could learn from. 

If we somehow had the exposure, whether by these means or other ideas, demand should increase, and in turn supply should to meed the demand, so more are doing it generating additional exposure and demand to the point that shops start carrying equipment, and it continues to snowball. 

[Corey]

Groups like LCI and others have to help as well. Buddies meeting up, noticeably having fun, welcoming to beginners. Contrast that with me riding by myself.

7 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Hint: it often looks a bit odd, and there's a detectable amount of 'specialness' involved.

Haha! 

[Wolf]

I've thought about the problem of getting new people started as well, without coming up with a good solution.  I've had lots of people say they'd really like to try "one of those boards" and adult snowboards who think the Intec bindings are so nice.  And I too have offered people equipment to try but never had any takers.  But boots are another hurdle there.  And Bomber doesn't seem to participate in demos and events like before, which only makes things worse.  I actually thought when Bomber was for sale that selling expensive equipment that doesn't wear out has to have market growth to be successful.

[billyt.]

It 

looks like the gear is starting to evolve with respect to carving.  Soft set ups that carve really good and riders like Knapton that can show it off in today’s media via U Tube and the like.  We have seen this through the years with many sports, instant gratification!  Yes that sport is cool, and I would like to try it, but I don’t want to invest the time to learn it?  Ski resorts still cater to the park rats and the bigger snowboard companies push that look and style of riding.  What are they doing in Asia that gets carving and hard boots the exposure that creates the excitement?  I personally watch those carving videos to get me pumped.

[pmorita]

I worked in a few windsurfing shops in the 80s and saw the same issues that made it hard for people to enter the sport.

- Very few places to learn and get past the beginner stage.  It's no secret that there is a steep learning curve for alpine, less so for windsurfing.  You need people that can teach, a place to learn and enough people looking to commit to a painful process to enjoy the sport.

- The cost of getting started is high.  Just getting to the mountain is expensive.  Investing in gear on top of that is a lot to ask.  Rentals are nor available as they need to be.  I know Okemo had a few rental setups, including boots, but there were no takers - partially because of no instruction?  It's all for sale for half price.

- No focus on kids and getting people involved early.  There are three or four threads this year on people looking for kids gear.  I'm struggling to find small boots and a short board for my kid who is starting to ask.  Again, the prior bullet points feed into this issue and I have to give credit to Burton for trying to solve this with their kid specific gear, Riglet program and directly sponsoring school programs to get kids snowboarding in grade school.

I'm sure there are many other reasons and no easy answers.  I'd love to see this go a different way, but near term it would be great to see more beginners and younger people on the green trails.  Near term, guess we need to introduce a skier or soft booter to carving.   I'm mounting some small bindings on a soft boot board for my kid and keeping an extra setup for friends and family.  If anyone knows of a mountain that is offering instruction, spread the word.  Maybe a learn to ride morning during the next carving convention?   

Let's keep sharing ideas so we can fill more chairs with carvers.

[lowrider]

Always thought i was a glass half full type but my recent observations of the sport suggest to me that it's on the decline and has been for a few years. My suspicions are that most new board builds are BX and soft boot boards. As far as nice shops and greater interest in sustainable mfg all good but ? I'll bet there were a pile of pretty nice buggy whip factories in existence just before Ford cars hit the market. My bet would be that demographics is the major player in the formula. The Anglo European influence that brought North America it's ski resorts and alpine sports post WW 2 are not the influence they once were. World cup racing never caught on in North America the way it is celebrated in Europe but a few resorts still keep hosting them. To progress from a sport of interest to one of participation one has to invest time money and other resources. Anyone can rent a pair of skis and at least stand up on them and take a selfie. (look i'm skiing). Perhaps if we took the collective knowledge of members here and used the only resource we have available " The Internet " and  bombarded media in an organized manner we could generate interest with the uninformed masses. I'm sounding like i'm heading up a pep rally but i'm not your guy as my technical abilities are sub par at best. Telemark skiing is attempting to get into the Olympics so i would consider them the competition as far as sourcing new participants. Two plank wankers are more likely to adopt skis over an alpine board in my opinion. We all keep trying and hoping to bring new participants to the sport but we really need a plan .  

[big mario]

1 hour ago, Corey said:

Groups like LCI and others have to help as well. Buddies meeting up, noticeably having fun, welcoming to beginners. Contrast that with me riding by myself

We try Corey.  We have, and do  offer equipment and guidance to anyone who wants to try.  We've handed out plenty of bomber cards in the past, hosted mini sessions,  demo days, and do our share of ego riding under lifts to show others that snowboards can be used for something other than skidding, slarving , jibbing and jumping.  I think the only convert riding lovey is myself after seeing Pcogan/pcdenver/pcabq ripping turns under lift 2 on firecut over 15 years ago.  Or maybe that has something to do with my marginal personality. Our crew has morphed many times through the years,  growing, shrinking and growing again.  Many of our riders were already on hardboots, and joined us after reading about our shenanigans on the YO LCI! thread. I've preached the gospel of the turn to many, with out any takers. my guess is image is everything, and ours is not hip enough, or at least mine i'sn''t

Mario

Chief instigator

founding member(one of a few)

LCI

[softbootsurfer]

The Entire Snowboard Community of Areas, that provide Opportunity to do Carving, are Geared toward and Promote Only Terrain Parks...when the Skateboard Industry took over the Sport combined with the 1st "INSTRUCTORS",  All Set Ups and Style, dictated by them...Want to be Cool? Do It This Way!! The Only Real Current Trend, as I have witnessed here, is the slight increase in Carving with SB set ups...as for HB making a comeback...that is not going to happen here I assure you...I don't believe Carving, as We experience it will ever be a promoted by any Ski Area in the U S....also the Ruts issue and how the Slopes would change if there were a lot more Carvers on the Mountain is important to remember, as Skiers HATE those RUTS and the People in Charge of the Mountains are 90% Skiers...

[Shred Gruumer]

Why don't you who are reproducing start your kids on carving gear...  wait all their friends are in the park....

I do see more and more softbooters trying or working to carve.  But the lack of even carving softboot boards are limited.  Eventually maybe it will pick up but not likely as if the shops are not touting it or even carrying them ...slim chance to none and slim just left.

You would think the Midwest would be loaded with carvers as the groom is all we got...  I gotta laugh when I take the chair lift over the parks and observe...

Other than close friends...  I never been able to bring ANY one into it...  They all love to watch us carve but seldom have the sack to do it...

Softboot carving seems to be the only glimmer of hope...

[b0ardski]

hardboot videos are full of laid over turns to the right and laid over turns to the left and nothing else... gets boring fast for nonparticipants.

softer flexing boots that use STANDARD plate binding is big part of the issue. every day I'm out I try to show that alpine stance is NOT limited to fresh groom in the morning. I do bumps trees and switch all over the mt. especially hollywood runs trying to prove the setup is not that limited.

all mt boot options for standardized plate binders is near nonexistent, deluxe 225 and apz rc8/atb are all there is. deeluxe ground control is a good step, the system we use needs a softer duck freindly all mt component. AASI will never give up the standardized teaching model designed around centered duck, no instructors wasting the 1st very expensive hour just figuring out the individuals natural stance setup.

Newbies being able to use a familiar stepin binding system when shifting to a carve stance would help, but "carving" is inherently a higher level of glisse than rank beginners can handle. most hard carvers already have an understanding of snow sliding, board or skis, when they shift to carving one edge. not a beginner friendly side of the sport of glisse.

 

Edited February 27, 2019 by b0ardski

[Missionman]

Pretty sure we have had threads related to this topic in the past, but its still fascinating to me. For me I'm just hoping that the market stays large enough to support our gear builders as viable businesses for them, and ideally, just enough growth to get a little bit of R&D and progressive development.  I don't particularly care that much that hardbooting is an oddball alpine sport - makes me feel a little bit special.  I like the liftline and lift discussions.   Moreover, the selfish side of me doesn't really want to queue up for another board from Bruce in the next year or two (even though I tell others of what a deal a custom board is relative to any other high end factory built softboot board).  But there are so many obstacles that keep hardbooting an oddball discipline that might be too difficult to make it mainstream.  Tech, youtube and gopros have taken softboot carving most of the way to hardboot setups.   And the commitment in  time (let alone money) to get to a good level where it really starts to be fun is way longer (in my humble experience) than some might want to spend if they just want to go down a hill.  The paradoxes of learning (i have to fall more into the turn to keep from falling into the turn...?  I have to angulate further away from the ground to get closer...?  I have to get my board higher on edge, which I'm not comfy with anyways, to get through the chop...?  I have to relax my legs more...?) are fun but take time to overcome the mind and body's intuition.  Top this with the decline in snowboarding for all its reasons.

I don't know how to get around the boots impediment.  I think most of us are willing to loan out a setup, but we don't have a full closet of boot sizes.  (In reality, I would say that 98% of people who are willing to borrow a set up won't stick with it anyways because riding hardboots the first day is no more fun than carving on your skis or softboots).  Even if there were a hardboot that were perfectly suitable for skiing (I like the idea of the UPZ's), why would any skier buy it over the all the other available choices?

Could a binding that could somehow simulate/cheat ankle flexion (on a pivot between the ball and heel with a spring system?) make ski boots more usable for a carving setup?  Then we could remove one impediment to getting skiers, at least, to take up the sport.   

Its too bad for everyone else though.  Particularly where I live in Ontario where we don;'t get true powder days, and the best hill within 2 hours is 700' of vertical.  Carving really makes a crappy hill exhilarating.  And its way more fun on a board than on skis.

[Rob Stevens]

10 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

1. Determine why it lacks appeal among 'normal' folk.

Hint: it often looks a bit odd, and there's a detectable amount of 'specialness' involved  

 

Oh, that’s ****ing gold. And at the heart of the matter. 

When CASI fist came along, it was as an extension of a group called the QSC. These were riders from Quebec with an interest in standardizing a teaching model. All of them were in hardboots. The first western guys to fall in with them were also hardboot riders, or riders who spent a fair amount of time on them. Our first “team” picture from 1992, where the eastern hui’s came out to Lake Louise, shows fully 3 of 4 of us in alpine gear. 

The point there is that we tried to promote solid turning, right from the start. As it turned out, the vibe of the sport wasn’t going that way, with skating as the major influencer. Say what you want about how beginners are set up... I’ll offer that I’ve never taught a beginner who didn’t take to it more quickly on softboots over hard. 

Others have alluded to the ability of a growing number of riders carving well on softboots. I’d go so far as to say that you’d have to spend a fair amount of time on an alpine setup to rail as well as some of the people I look up to who’ve never ridden alpine equipment. If someone looks at us from the outside in, not showing them an advantage, while further offering them reduced versatility and greater expense isn’t going to win hearts and minds. 

That said, if I’m a skier or neverever riding the chair, and I see Ryan and the Japanese fella from the carving on the steeps video riding below me, I’d have a tough time deciding which one I wanted to do. If Travis Rice then did a Cab5 into Corbett’s while I watched, that would help me make up my mind. 

The last paragraph is based on the attitude of someone who naturally analyzes things. I sweat the pros and cons. This in in contrast to most who are of the mind that the kid uncontrollably straight lining the pitch is going waaaaay faster, and is therefore having waaaaay more fun than those grown ups doing stupid turns.

Novice, full-gas straight lining FTW. 

Edited February 27, 2019 by Rob Stevens

[b0ardski]

I do think any growth in alpine has/will come from skiers more than the softbooters, from the start alpine is more like skiing than skateboarding

[Rob Stevens]

11 minutes ago, b0ardski said:

I do think any growth in alpine has/will come from skiers more than the softbooters, from the start alpine is more like skiing than skateboarding

Too bad that good alpine skiers blow our doors off generally and would see no advantage to picking up alpine snowboard equipment. 

There was a time when we had a better carve, pre shape skis, but those days are long gone. 

I was on the pitch yesterday with some J2 level ski coaches. They were ****ing flying. My experience tells me that only the very best alpine snowboarders in the world could hang with them. These snowboarders would need to be very brave, have the best gear and probably still need to stivot a bit to hold the line. It could be done, but then the coaches would turn onto a bumped out, steep face, leaving the alpine riders to completely rot. 

Edited February 27, 2019 by Rob Stevens

[scottishsurfer]

9 minutes ago, b0ardski said:

I do think any growth in alpine has/will come from skiers more than the softbooters, from the start alpine is more like skiing than skateboarding

Not entirely sure that's true one of my friends switched to softs to hards pretty much permanently after only 2 years of snowboarding total and i know of another that's considering making a similar jump. I've started to ride hards as a kind of cross training to improve my softboot riding. For context the 3 of us are between 22 and 33 in terms of age the difficult thing is we are essentially working things out for ourselves in terms of technique as we go using what we can find on the internet and observing each other riding.

Edited February 27, 2019 by scottishsurfer

[Kneel]

I've left my spawn to their own devices.  Someone much smarter than me said a long time ago as a parent to never overestimate the influence you THINK you have on your kids.  They're on their own journey and will experience life in a way that feels right to them.  All I could do was to set a REAL example and hope they are paying attention just enough where your message can be heard through the noise.  They're smart as well, knowing when you don't truly walk-the-walk and perceptive enough to know when you don't give a shit about what makes them tick. Both extremely important keys to the puzzle, but I digress. 

When it comes to snowboarding, I knew my ONLY job was to show them how much fun I was having, listen to their questions, answer honestly and be interested in everything they were interested in when it came to their excitement in snowboarding even when they wanted me to ride in the park on a factory prime. Aside from "making" them ski when they were little. At 10 they were "allowed" to choose if they wanted to try snowboarding.  The oldest one did and hasn't looked back. The middle one stuck with skiing till about 13 then made the switch.  The evolution as it stands, my 18yo hardboots exclusively while the 16yo loves the park, he's also a tremendous softboot carver. I'm enthusiastic for both of them as much as I was when they were on skis.  This is no different than interacting with garden variety kooks in the lift line.  There is hope.

 

[lonbordin]

Carving sessions will never have young people.  It takes a degree of financial solvency and job security to be able to take the time off, travel, and just ride for a few days.  These events will always have an older demographic that's just a fiscal reality in North America and I suspect most of the world.  I wanted to go and had the $$$ but couldn't get out of work obligations.  I'm hoping next year will be different!

Carving is growing. Carving is a panacea of which hardboot carving is only a small section.

Softboot carving is growing in North America.  Look at what the manufactures are selling in this realm and it's growing. Softboots are becoming more responsive (stiffer) and some are even marketed as Carving boots.  Boards are wider and marketed as carving boards.  Most volume shifted shapes market how they work in the pow AND still carve the groomers. Bindings have also become more responsive.  We had a custom SB Donek carver visit Paoli this season first time!  I see more kids attempt carves then ever and I go to a small bump in the middle of nowhere.

Look at the social media influencers are doing like @Ryan Knapton , the Yawgoons, the Angry Snowboarder and others.  They don't do a review without mentioning the carving aspect of equipment.  The Yawgoons throw carves and switch-carves into nearly every video as does nearly every snowboard video now-a-days.

Carving is also heavily talked about on other large social sites like TGF, Reddit, and all the other snowsliding forums.  I'd note that ski carving is also in resurgence.

Softboot and hardboot carving is growing in APAC.  It's nearly a craze in some areas. 

I do think we have some issues with resorts and instruction that add a hurdle to carving even for the softboot rider.  The next time you're on your hill take a look at the beginning snowboarders on rentals.  How many even have their boots tied correctly?  How many have tied boots and 2 to 3" of space in front of their shins? Resorts are so focused on getting people through the door and little else especially in these cost cutting times.  These people won't likely return much less ascend to carving.

The resort focus on parks also hurts.  In my travels and discussions with locals the amount of effort and resources resorts have to put into their parks causes deficits in snowmaking and grooming for the rest of the hill.  As I posted in another thread there's a lot of resorts out there that won't be open much longer due to climate change.  Anyone who visits one of these fringe resorts can plainly see the lack of investment in any new equipment.  in addition, my anecdotal experience is that some of the best undisturbed groom is in the parks, especially large parks. There's often only a handful of riders that even loop the big parks!  Snowsliding at large is in peril.  Without tubing some of the small resorts would have already closed.

I think we are closer to a tipping point for carving than we think.  Imagine if DC shoes comes out in the fall of 2020 with a stiff Step-On boot that has a softboot lower with a hidden hardboot cuff and hinge with some adjustable flex mechanism.  A more accessible boot would change everything.

I would say that I've had the good fortune to meet quite a few fellow forum members through the years.  This community cares and would give you the shirt off their back if it meant you would become another carver.

Edited February 27, 2019 by lonbordin
Please keep your shirt on next time! ​​​​​​​;-)