Growth in our sport?

[Rob Stevens]

6 minutes ago, lonbordin said:

Carving sessions will never have young people.  It takes a degree of financial solvency and job security to be able to take the time off, travel, and just ride for a few days.  These events will always have an older demographic that's just a fiscal reality in North America and I suspect most of the world.  I wanted to go and had the $$$ but couldn't get out of work obligations.  I'm hoping next year will be different!

Carving is growing. Carving is a panacea of which hardboot carving is only a small section.

Softboot carving is growing in North America.  Look at what the manufactures are selling in this realm and it's growing. Softboots are becoming more responsive (stiffer) and some are even marketed as Carving boots.  Boards are wider and marketed as carving boards.  Most volume shifted shapes market how they work in the pow AND still carve the groomers. Bindings have also become more responsive.  We had a custom SB Donek carver visit Paoli this season first time!  I see more kids attempt carves then ever and I go to a small bump in the middle of nowhere.

Look at the social media influencers are doing like @Ryan Knapton , the Yawgoons, the Angry Snowboarder and others.  They don't do a review without mentioning the carving aspect of equipment.  The Yawgoons throw carves and switch-carves into nearly every video as does nearly every snowboard video now-a-days.

Carving is also heavily talked about on other large social sites like TGF, Reddit, and all the other snowsliding forums.  I'd note that ski carving is also in resurgence.

Softboot and hardboot carving is growing in APAC.  It's nearly a craze in some areas. 

I do think we have some issues with resorts and instruction that add a hurdle to carving even for the softboot rider.  The next time you're on your hill take a look at the beginning snowboarders on rentals.  How many even have their boots tied correctly?  How many have tied boots and 2 to 3" of space in front of their shins? Resorts are so focused on getting people through the door and little else especially in these cost cutting times.  These people won't likely return much less ascend to carving.

The resort focus on parks also hurts.  In my travels and discussions with locals the amount of effort and resources resorts have to put into their parks causes deficits in snowmaking and grooming for the rest of the hill.  As I posted in another thread there's a lot of resorts out there that won't be open much longer due to climate change.  Anyone who visits one of these fringe resorts can plainly see the lack of investment in any new equipment.  in addition, my anecdotal experience is that some of the best undisturbed groom is in the parks, especially large parks. There's often only a handful of riders that even loop the big parks!  Snowsliding at large is in peril.  Without tubing some of the small resorts would have already closed.

I think we are closer to a tipping point for carving than we think.  Imagine if DC shoes comes out in the fall of 2020 with a stiff Step-On boot that has a softboot lower with a hidden hardboot cuff and hinge with some adjustable flex mechanism.  A more accessible boot would change everything.

I would say that I've had the good fortune to meet quite a few fellow forum members through the years.  This community cares and would give you the shirt off their back if it meant you would become another carver.

^ This. 

[b0ardski]

"Resorts are so focused on getting people through the door and little else especially in these cost cutting times.  These people won't likely return much less ascend to carving.

The resort focus on parks also hurts.  In my travels and discussions with locals the amount of effort and resources resorts have to put into their parks causes deficits in snowmaking and grooming for the rest of the hill.  As I posted in another thread there's a lot of resorts out there that won't be open much longer due to climate change.  Anyone who visits one of these fringe resorts can plainly see the lack of investment in any new equipment.  in addition, my anecdotal experience is that some of the best undisturbed groom is in the parks, especially large parks. There's often only a handful of riders that even loop the big parks!"

I typically see maybe 10-20 people using the parks regularly and never all day, disproportionate spending for sure, especially when the groomers are only 4 passes wide

 

[jng]

Make things easier and reach the most people possible.

First, make the info easier to access. Digging though the ATS forums is not an effective way to spread the word. Carver's Almanac is the most comprehensive site, but is clearly dated. Incorporate the info into ATS. Where's our own wikipedia page? How are we even a "thing" without a wikipedia page? Embarassing.

We assume that people actually want to carve, but just need the right equipment and training. Suppose we can test that assumption by running a few carving events with demos and lessons at a single resort with lots of local and tourists, and good carving terrain, e.g., a main Summit County resort. Make it a carving event, not a hardboot event, offering a wide range of gear. Get people hooked on the carve and let them take it back to their home resort and decide their gear of choice. Leverage the event to get the word out in the press.

If this can't work with industry support at a single resort, then we will know where we stand as a sport.

As our softboot brethren say, "Go big or go home".

[Shred Gruumer]

2 hours ago, Rob Stevens said:

The point there is that we tried to promote solid turning, right from the start. As it turned out, the vibe of the sport wasn’t going that way, with skating as the major influencer

Funny as in Europe mainly what I've seen in Switzerland that even when they teach a newbie or child,,, learning to carve the edge is the first thing they learn to do..

Maybe why so many good racers...

Yeah... that's it  we need more showcases.. personally I hate to watch parallel slalom it doesn't show well on TV.. at least for me..

I liked the old GS days... and Nickle Bagleeotti 

[Keenan]

AASI=American Association of Spinning Instructors.  When my supervisors reviewed me and told me that I was one of the most reliable instructors but I really should be on soft boots, I told them to read the AASI manual, specifically the "Y" model which says all snowboarders start in the same spot but at some point they go in different directions, freestyle or carve.  AASI and the resorts have focused all attention on freestyle and want to churn out an army of identical spinning robots, all with the same stance, all doing the same tricks.

We are the outcast.  We are the niche that snowboarding used to be.

[pmorita]

What ever happened to the Pure Boarding guys?  Wouldn't they have demo days and program they were pushing?

Also, like what Kneel is saying.  Think we all want the same thing here.

 

[lonbordin]

28 minutes ago, pmorita said:

What ever happened to the Pure Boarding guys?  Wouldn't they have demo days and program they were pushing?

https://pureboarding.com/events/season-schedule/  Out there surfing the mountain...

[Rob Stevens]

1 hour ago, Keenan said:

AASI=American Association of Spinning Instructors.  When my supervisors reviewed me and told me that I was one of the most reliable instructors but I really should be on soft boots, I told them to read the AASI manual, specifically the "Y" model which says all snowboarders start in the same spot but at some point they go in different directions, freestyle or carve.  AASI and the resorts have focused all attention on freestyle and want to churn out an army of identical spinning robots, all with the same stance, all doing the same tricks.

We are the outcast.  We are the niche that snowboarding used to be.

The “Y” model does say that, but that supports the idea that a beginner instructor should be in softboots, as that’s what the student will most likely be on. 

“They all start in the same spot”.

Given how effectively you can carve in softboots, a rider might only take the alpine branch of the “Y” a fair way into their snowboarding life. 

[Allee]

7 hours ago, billyt. said:

It looks like the gear is starting to evolve with respect to carving.  Soft set ups that carve really good and riders like Knapton that can show it off in today’s media via U Tube and the like.  

Billy and Lonbordin are right on the money. I think this is where it's going. In the last couple of seasons I've seen a LOT of kids on soft boots carving, or attempting to carve, and the shape of the boards has changed radically over the same time period. I've had people on soft boots chase me down specifically to talk to me about carving, but they don't want a skinny board and hardboots, they want to do better with the gear they have, or the gear they can buy from the shop. Most kids can't afford more than one board, so they need to make a smart decision as to which board they want to buy and the riding they want to do.

It shouldn't be about hardboots v softboots ... it should be about putting trenches in groom in whatever way works for you. That's how we're going to grow "carving" as a sport.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Allee

[Wolf]

5 hours ago, Shred Gruumer said:

 

You would think the Midwest would be loaded with carvers as the groom is all we got... 

One small market might be (older) adults in the lowlands who don't get to travel much and just get to where skiing a small hill gets old.  They want to get out on the snow, they're adults so the park doesn't appeal to them, and carving on a snowboard looks like a new challenge to keep things interesting.

[ken]

17 hours ago, dredman said:

There are lots of Lone Wolf Carvers out there

You called??

17 hours ago, dredman said:

the straggler will be smuggling in gear from overseas to feed their habits.  

I’m already doing that, I have a hard time finding gear in the U.S.

Here’s my two cents as an inexperienced carver. 

Have more “Learn to carve events” if possible and promote them as such.  Hardboots, softboots, it don’t matter. Hardboots are difficult to come by in large numbers. I first started carving in cheapo burtons boots on a Gnu Magna Traction (I got some funny looks at ECES, lol) but it got me to the point where I wanted to get hardboots. It was all about the carve, not equipment. 

 

Start a beginner section on this forum run by a few select individuals offering advice. Not an open reply section where a newbie asks 1 question and receives 12 conflicting opinions and suggestions for a $2k setup. Offer cost effective, entry level equipment advice, equipment setup and instructional videos on technique (videos are key, imo). The key for newcomers is to keep it simple as possible, many of us forget how intimidating learning this sport can be. 

Edited February 27, 2019 by ken

[Corey]

25 minutes ago, ken said:

Start a beginner section on this forum run by a few select individuals offering advice. Not an open reply section where a newbie asks 1 question and receives 12 conflicting opinions and suggestions for a $2k setup. Offer cost effective, entry level equipment advice, equipment setup and instructional videos on technique (videos are key, imo). The key for newcomers is to keep it simple as possible, many of us forget how intimidating learning this sport can be. 

Wow, I love this!  We don't need to be debating plates, board dimensions, and which flex characteristics of which bindings are better in newbie threads, but we always do. 

[softbootsurfer]

by the Way...I taught our Son Rob to Carve 1st thing when he was 8 after teaching him to Ski prior and he enjoyed that for awhile...then I built him a Skateboard ramp and that was when the Interest in Leaving the Ground and Spin this and that took over...He would occasionally come around and Fakie Carve behind me as he was a Goofy, then switch to Goofy take off leave the ground and disappear...he said for years "Dad, All You Do is Carve Turns"  :- )

[MR. JOHN DEERE !]

It is growing, just not in the way we hoped it would. Albeit the people that are carving aren't on our gear JUST YET,  but when Jonsie made quick a video and stated that a groomer day is just as fun as a back country day, well a bunch of riders started turning their boards again.  

We all know, the choke hold is the alpine gear availability and the cost. Everyday that I ride, the lifties, ski coaches and other snowboarders, I ALL SAY THEY WANT TO TRY ALPINE. I have offered my quiver and bindings, they just need ski boots, but it never works out.

I shared a video on FB last night on what I thought was a great clip of a WC PSL race. My messenger account then blew up.  So after the our last LRT race in March, I have 3-4 LRT ski race coaches hopping on alpine set up's. If anyone wants to lend me F2 bindings that would save a ton of time !?!?!?!?!  When I coached alpine snowboarding, I always loved the F2's screw driver adjustments. Burton's, bombers, and basically anything else was a nightmare. 

A couple weeks back, I was getting my Swedish Nanny some snowboard boots as the job required her to be a female shredder. The guy in the shop an old school Loon rider, and former alpine guy, said Never Summer is releasing an "east coast" board for next year. A directional 163 or 158 with camber, titanal and meant for soft boot carving and ice. Getting these big manufacturers to see the light is great for us. Its going to be like introducing a very addictive drug. How can I do it faster, and better, hopefully that makes it way to us. Not sure if other big manufacturers are doing the same, but if they would it would be an epidemic. Either way I'm good, I'm happy to see people that can ride again. It was a " disgrace to our sport " for long time, with these idiots who learned how to skid at full speed, in their pajamas on, on the way to the pahhk.  

[pow4ever]

my verbal/thoughts diarrhea:

As quite a few before me allude to.  
I do believed the "community effort" are taking root. 
I see more people try to carve regardless of equipments:  imitation is the sincerest form of flattery or is it "anything you can do I can do better"? lol...
Donek snowboard are a common sight now.  It take some time to get used to.  Not all of it hard boot but brand recognition count. 

What is our sport?
A clear definition might help:  equipments is part of it but it's not the whole picture.
I ride equipments that's optimized for groomer but I aspired to have fun riding in all conditions and all day riding (clean carve when possible, but bump, tree, powder, small jump/features are welcome to some degree lol.)  It's a goal that I may never reached lol.

Following the $$:
Niche(winter sport) on top of niche(hard booting/carving). 

Express Session imply individuality.  Nothing wrong with a good introduction system.  Frankly it's very welcome.
Burton learn to ride is "good" for what it does.  No shade of grey; do things this way.
I remember loving the Pure Boarding clinic; it's all inclusive(equipment agnostic); Jorge focus on what "good" feel/body position should "taste" like.

Many of us seems to get "stuck" on certain level and progress have either stalled.  To get to the next level require tons of dedication, $$$ and T.O.M.
How to get folks going beyond carving green/blue/easier trail I think is a challenge that need a good answer.  Otherwise the ROI on time/money spend diminishing really fast.
Going to world class resort to ride blue groom run is fun no doubt; but it's so much more enjoyable/fun to be able to sample what the whole mountain have to offer.
 

Great thread and thanks everyone for their thoughtful input!

[darko714]

I’m not sure this is as much of a problem as we’re making it out to be.  Keep in mind that the demographics aren’t so bleak as they seem.  Yes, hardbooting is a middle-aged man’s sport due to the expense and time involved.   But in the US, with our aging population, more people turn 40 every day than are born.  That means a steady supply of life-long snowboarders who will be aging out of the terrain park, as well as a few skiers who have blown out their knees and realize that they can stay on the slopes by abusing their upper bodies instead.     

As of the 2016 census, there were 81.5 million Americans in the all important 45-64 year old demographic (our “youngbloods”), and that number is expected to grow to 95 million by 2050.  The greatest growth will be among those age 65 to 85 (our “old hands”).  While there are now about 43 million in this age group, that number is expected to be upwards of 63 million by 2050 - making them (soon to be “us”) the second fastest growing age demographic in the US.  

Also, consider that hardboot snowboarding is more popular in Europe and Asia than it is here, and those are some big markets, and should continue to be. When I ride in Europe, hardly anyone asks why I’m wearing ski boots on a snowboard. 

Finally, why not just embrace our sport’s uniqueness, rarity, and oddball splendor?  Do we really want a kazillion twenty-something jibbers to poach first tracks and carve trenches all over our formerly empty groomers before the lifts even open?  What if a bluebird groomer day at your hill became like a powder day at Whistler or Squaw?   Let’s enjoy the solitude . . . and the delusion that because we are few, we’re an elite.       
 

Edited February 27, 2019 by darko714
syntax error

[Chouinard]

 

[Shred Gruumer]

3 hours ago, MR. JOHN DEERE ! said:

Swedish Nanny

Mmmmm... 

[Awesomo12000]

Deeluxe's decision to put out hard/soft boot hybrids is a great step in the right direction. Many people around my age (23) that tried hardbooting stopped because of the learning curve, the gear is very unforgiving for a new learner. These new boots I think will give a bit more leeway and comfort with the benefit of plate bindings.

edit: Also my gf wont try it because it "seems hard" and my friends wont even look at it because they can get a complete snowboard for $400.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Awesomo12000

[bumpyride]

I figure the best way to generate some interest would be to contact the Snowboard Magazines and try to convince them to do a feature on Hardboots.  I would not recommend to show just carving, but showing what they can do off piste and in the bumps and trees.

I never subscribed to just sticking to groomers.  I must have some ADD because I could never stay on a groomer for long.

Some of the new all mountain boards are very adaptable to Plates and Hardboots.  My Squash turns heads every time I go out.  I'm continually answering questions about the board and plates.  The Squash rails better on firm (not ice) than any all mountain board I've tried, and in the trees and bumps it excels.  It's not a 1 Trick Pony.   It's ugly, but it's a beauty every where.

So I figure if you can turn some of the younger man bun dudes onto hard boots with an all mountain board, we'd gain some traction.

[fish]

I often talk to folks in softies who say they like the look of carving in hardboots. I think some might try it if the gear was more accessible. Then again, maybe that’s naive. Come to think of it, I don’t think I’ve ever successfully convinced anyone to try riding their current board with a + + stance. People get attached to their stances and styles even when they don’t make a lot of sense.

What does the person who is going to start riding plates and buying skinny boards look like? What car do they drive? How many times a year do they participate  in snow sports? How old are they? What is their motive getting involved? Etc. Answer these demographic questions and then you might have an idea where to find next season’s fresh meat.

I wonder how many new, non-racer hardbooters join the ranks in a given season. Any guesses? 

[Corey]

From MCC: the ideal person is somewhere between a lifty and a CEO, drives a beat-up pickup or a Tesla, and is somewhere between a nice person and a really nice person.

And they're all a bit 'special'. 

[snowwjob1]

I think you need a big name already in the industry supporting hard boots. Jermy Jones has spoken of his early days racing in hard boots. Damien Sanders rocked hard boots. Until you have that big name pushing the limits in alpine gear it will be a hard sell. Who can get TGR to sponsor a heli trip with just hard booters slashing big powder turns. I will volunteer to go! Maybe we need to get Travis Rice on a big Undertaker and some hardboots.

[Jcar]

Love this thread!!

Here is some options and observations from someone who is coming off of a 20 year hiatus for snowboarding.  My last season on the snow was 98-99.  At that time I was in SoCal and riding one to two days a week on average.  I would run into two to three HB carvers a season.  Also during that time the large board manufacturers (Burton, Sims) were still building race, carving boards.  Us HBs at that time were still a group of lone wolfs looking to join a pack.  When we did see someone we would meet up and ride together.  Then the conversations in the lift lines would really start....!  “What kind of boards are those, and yada yada.  The same questions we all still get today!

My point is, we were a small group of very specialized snowboarders then and that doesn’t seem to have changed over the last 20 years.  

 Where I have seen a major change is, in the organization of groups via the internet.  Of course the web was in its infancy and nothing like today, but this now allows us to meet up and get bodies on the mountain and be seen by more people.  It allows us to also organize events, demos, clinics etc.  It’s a powerful tool.  How else could we have rented Turner Mountain for the Montucky Clear Cut!   As much as I hate social media it is very effective at reaching out to new people and bringing them in.  I should know; without it I  would have missed MCC.  I was toying with the idea about getting back into carving again and started to search for pages and groups for carvers.  This lit the pilot, and then once I saw an add from Dave Redman on Alpine Snowboard Trader about MCC (it also led me here to this forum) the fire to get back into carving was now out of control!!  I’m back in, and thankful for places like Alpine Snowboarder and the many pages on FB that helped relight that fire that I was missing.

 

The other major change is boards and manufacturers.  The major brands that everyone knows are no longer making HB race-carving boards.  They are all small custom board manufacturers that will hand build a board to you and your riding style.  I find this absolutely amazing!!  I’ve always wanted a custom board!  Now I can meet and converse with the person who will be the actual person building my board.  That’s insane to me!!  In a sense my own personal Pro Model for not much more than a top of line board from any modern mass production board Co. Not only will I be buying new carving boards I’ll also be buying a new all mountain SB board from one of these custom companies to help support them.  Supporting these custom board companies is crucial to our sport.  By seeing some of your quivers I’m assuming they are doing well.

 

Us carvers have always been a small group and will probably (and hopefully) alway be one.  We are only cool in our own minds and I’m ok with that!!  

 

One last thought....when snowboarding was in its infancy, we were all friends.  I remember going to a new mountain and finding the locals and riding with them.  There were no egos and we all fed off each other and had a great time and left having made new friends.  When snowboarding became  to cool for itself, and this mentality was no longer the norm among snowboarders, this vibe and sense of family stayed in the carving community.  I’m so happy to see that same mentality still exists today!

 

P.S.  I have 3 young kids that will hopefully be on HB in the coming years!!

 

 

[st_lupo]

6 hours ago, snowwjob1 said:

I think you need a big name already in the industry supporting hard boots. Jermy Jones has spoken of his early days racing in hard boots. Damien Sanders rocked hard boots. Until you have that big name pushing the limits in alpine gear it will be a hard sell. Who can get TGR to sponsor a heli trip with just hard booters slashing big powder turns. I will volunteer to go! Maybe we need to get Travis Rice on a big Undertaker and some hardboots.

Get Bruce to make a Travis Rice signature carving board!

 

My own modest contribution at the local hill is just being friendly to the people on the lifts and try to remember the faces of the folks who have expressed any interest at all, and talk to them when I see them again.  I'm also out riding my NFC in pretty much all conditions so that folks can see it isn't just for perfect groomers; pow, slush, runs that have been tracked out from SL/GS courses, ... With the sport growing in the Asian side of the world, maybe North America might see a K-Pop/J-Pop type follow on effect? That would be kawaii!  *shudder*