Growth in our sport?

[scottishsurfer]

As an entry into the sport it doesn't have to be that expensive all you really need is a stiffish camber board of a reasonable length, older bindings and a pair of ski boots. Its most definitely not the optimal set up but it does provide a taste of what hardboot riding can be and will let the person know if they want to carry down that road or not. For example i'm riding in a pair of head advantage 95 ski boots($130 i bought them primarily for liners to stick in my softboots) with santa cruz hardboot bindings which are all old and i imagine could be found really cheap with a bit of looking. Ok i'm riding my SG soul which is an expensive board and not comman but my friend who switched from softs to hards did so on a lib tech t-rice 164w and a capita black death speed tribe 162 again not the best tool for the job but it let him get his foot in the door and know that was direction he wished to take his riding.

[AcousticBoarder]

14 hours ago, fish said:

I often talk to folks in softies who say they like the look of carving in hardboots. I think some might try it if the gear was more accessible. Then again, maybe that’s naive. Come to think of it, I don’t think I’ve ever successfully convinced anyone to try riding their current board with a + + stance. People get attached to their stances and styles even when they don’t make a lot of sense.

I also think it is different for someone to say they are interested and go to a shop and rent a whole setup from a "knowledgeable person" for a day than it is for them to either a) mess with their gear which is comfortable and setup just the way they like that doesn't look the same anyway, or b) borrow gear that looks weird, expensive, and complicated from this random and usually strange, neon clad person they just met

[Jack M]

I don't mean this to be negative but I think the bigger goal is how do we keep the sport from disappearing in North America.  I think the scene is healthy on other continents, but here the population seems to be aging.

I see hope in youth racing, which is why ASB has partnered with USASA and USSRT.  All ASB proceeds beyond the cost of hosting and merch gets donated to them.  USASA reports greater participation in gates than in slopestyle.  Boardercross is their most popular event, which is still a good thing as it rewards carving ability.  At this year's Sunday River USASA alpine event, there were over 50 participants.  There were no slope or bx events that weekend either.  There are usually a handful of hardbooters at these races, and they typically have the fastest times across the board.  This is probably the only exposure to alpine gear that many of these kids will get all year.  Young racers see the performance and the results and know if they want to get serious about gates, or just faster, hardboots are the ticket.  My 13 year old nephew has had a breakthrough year on hardboots, and is now beating his good friend in the gates.  When they were both in softies, the friend was always faster.  The friend finally agreed to try my nephew's setup and is now hooked.  He took right to it because he was already carving his softboots.

Other observations:

The two most common themes in comments I get over the years from people expressing interest have been 1) that's amazing, I could never do that, and 2) I've always wanted to try that but I don't know how/where to try the gear.  We're not going to fix #1.  I'm planning on writing an article to address #2.  Individual carvers who meet other #2s can offer to teach them, provided they have an additional friendly setup like a 165-172 freecarve with standard bindings that the person can try with their ski boots.

I agree with David Kirk that doing anything on groomers is not "cool" or not "as cool" as going off piste or hitting gnarly au natural trails, so we are limited right off the bat.

Demos/Sessions: Back when Teleboards were invented, they had lots of demo events.  The impression that made on people has lasted.  I haven't seen a Teleboard demo in at least 20 years, but people still ask me if I'm using a Teleboard (grrr).  The SES and ECES and other sessions with a full complement of demo gear including boots would draw some new people in.  The Montucky Clear Cut was incredibly cool, and the realization of a longtime fantasy (private hardbooters-only mountain!) but did it bring in anyone new?  Honestly asking.

Also, snowboarding in general has declined.  Skiing is cool again!  It's so much easier for little tykes to start on skis, and then they get good and don't want to go back to being a beginner again on a snowboard.  That was what happened with my kids (now 13 and 16, wtf?).  To them snowboarding is what dad does.

Promoting hardboots for all-mountain/off-piste use... that's all fine and good but now we're talking about a niche within a niche within a niche.  I didn't think it was a business line worth chasing.  And personally I just don't think it's the right tool for the job.  I went about 12 years with no softboot gear.  I convinced myself I was having fun in powder/trees and in the spring.  I finally got back on softboots and a freeride setup 4 years ago and it's just better for that stuff.  No doubt in my mind. YMMV.

Anyway, I think if we can simply maintain the level we're at now, that would be mission accomplished.  Life as an alpine snowboarder right now is pretty awesome.  The gear is better than ever.  And hey, being unusual is fun.

Nephew:

his friend:

Nephew:

[ken]

15 minutes ago, Jack M said:

The SES and ECES and other sessions with a full complement of demo gear including boots would draw some new people in.  The Montucky Clear Cut was incredibly cool, and the realization of a longtime fantasy (private hardbooters-only mountain!) but did it bring in anyone new?

Monntucky Clear Cut looked incredible!! I wish I went. However, it wasn’t quite promoted as a “learn to carve event. From the eyes of a beginner skilled carver (like me), it appeared more of an event to which the big boys go. Not saying there wasn’t an open invitation to all, there was. I’m just trying to point out that many lone wolfs can feel apprehensive about going to an event where we think everyone else will be a rock star. 

I loved ECES when I went years ago, I wish there were more events like it. I truly believe that learn to carve events create a comfortable atmosphere for all learning. My view is “ok, I suck and I will feel more comfortable being around others that suck too”, plus it adds a lot to the fun factor. 

Look at Pure Boarding and Swoard, they each do learn to carve events for total beginners every year. They might not be reaching the masses, but they do draw some. I went to one of Joerg’s 3 day events in Austria, not only did I learn with others who “suck”, I got to ride with some amazing carvers. Most of all, it was really fun!

There’s only so much that reading/watching videos can do to help a learning carver, we need to get on the snow and do it. It’s hard to buy a new setup and feel like there’s nowhere to go for additional advice on a mountain. 

[BlueB]

Lots of good points Jack! 

Youth racing, yes definitely. Few years ago I tried talking to our ski club's director about starting a small program, within the club. He wasn't interested... and I'm not good at coordinating very complex logistics on my own. There are some kids racing at Whistler, I don't follow though. 

I can't even count how many "that's super cool, I wanted to try" I've heard over the years. I handed over at least 500 business cards. I never got more then 3 new hardboot students per season. Although, some take a bunch of lessons  and some come back year after year for refreshers. I even wonder why I keep so much spare gear in my garage... 

Yes skiing... same thing with my kid... 

I had a good but limited success with young instructors that I trained for last few years. Lots of them got interested in alpine and bought old setups from Craigslist, used goods stores, etc. Sometimes they show on our carving sessions on the alpine gear, but mostly don't have enough time and energy to pursue it on more regular basis. They struggle with correct binding setup, in despite of me talking about important aspects all the time. Unless I go and do it for them, or at least talk and show to ONE at the time, no adjustment gets made. I can't even convince, majority, to experiment a bit with their soft boot bindings. Another L3, also trainer, but my part time student, finally turned both bindings to mild forward angles and he's loving it! On the other hand, most of them improved their softy carving a lot. 

On the all-mountain thing, I disagree. It's probably where the missed opportunity was, for h/boots, all these decades. I think Joerg of PB has got it right... The biggest obstacle was the lack, or understanding, of proper gear really suitable for A/M. As the hard boots lost the battle, the boot and somewhat binding development has stopped and snowboarding lost the opportunity to have better gear across the board. 

[lowrider]

Perhaps the question to ask those who ski is  why don't you try something different ? Aren't you tired of skiing down the same old run year after year when you could experience it from a whole new perspective ? Then get ready for the  "I couldn't do that" or " My wife won't let me". How about waking up a bunch of muscles that have been asleep in you body for the last 30 years. I've tried to persuade different ways but the sight of a Skwal is just too much for any and all i have encountered so far. Moving forward what's the plan ???

[softbootsurfer]

Seriously, the average Kid is not going to like Just Carving Turns...nor should they...Racing sure, Like David Winters Boys, who are Carvers and outstanding Racers, however, that is not the Norm...also, many Really Good Carvers here in aspen, went back to Skis, after the industry made Skis, that can Carve better...Larry, Jeff, Alan, and many other Pure Carvers, still get on a Stick now and then, and Rip, but 90% of their time nowadays, is on Skis...any real Growth would have to come from the SB side first, while that seems to be happening even here, over the last 5 years and last year picking up speed...It is not just Carvingthey are into, but rather doing all the other stuff and now also doing some Carving turns on the way somewhere :- )

[xy9ine]

1 hour ago, BlueB said:

I had a good but limited success with young instructors that I trained for last few years.

i've seen a handful of the cypress blue jackets working on carving turns on their SB setups. may be a general trend, but carving (regardless of hardware) does seem to be catching on. 

[billyt.]

It seems like we all have the same perspective with regard to hardboot carving and the sport that while frustrating at times, gives us a great feeling that keeps us coming back for more.  The gear is Very Cool and it looks like it is flying even in the lift line.  Maybe we are on the brink of the next big thing?  A blending of the styles and gear.  I personally would like to see the mountains create more carving terrain with banked trails and tunnels?  Even the stuff now in the parks is stale.  Remember what the first half pipe looked like?  Time to think outside the box.

[Kurt Swanson]

I think the (mainstream) snowboard industry is missing out on an opportunity here. My impression is that they could care less about anyone over thirty-five. What about the guy/girl who is thirty-five or older, has no interest riding in the park or hitting jumps (bad knees?) anymore, has been riding for fifteen years and now is maybe looking for a bit of a change? Why not focus on boards for grown-ups? Make them stiffer and better at holding an edge. Suggest more of a forward stance for carving, if they like that sell 'em stiffer soft boots. A small portion will get hooked and will make the jump to hard boots. I'm amazed at how many people ride with a duck-stance and never ride switch. You're body is facing forward 90% of the time, shouldn't your feet as well?

Okay, rant over

[lowrider]

45 minutes ago, TSUNAMIBAY said:

I think the (mainstream) snowboard industry is missing out on an opportunity here.  You're body is facing forward 90% of the time, shouldn't your feet as well.

I butchered your quote but i think most humans are now incapable of thinking you can actually do something different from what most others are doing. Perhaps their brains have evolved to the point where change is not possible and we alpine guys and gals are the mutants. 

[xy9ine]

58 minutes ago, TSUNAMIBAY said:

I think the (mainstream) snowboard industry is missing out on an opportunity here. My impression is that they could care less about anyone over thirty-five. What about the guy/girl who is thirty-five or older, has no interest riding in the park or hitting jumps (bad knees?) anymore, has been riding for fifteen years and now is maybe looking for a bit of a change? Why not focus on boards for grown-ups? Make them stiffer and better at holding an edge. Suggest more of a forward stance for carving, if they like that sell 'em stiffer soft boots. A small portion will get hooked and will make the jump to hard boots. I'm amazed at how many people ride with a duck-stance and never ride switch. You're body is facing forward 90% of the time, shouldn't your feet as well?

Okay, rant over

this old(er) guy concurs. there are a few stiff boot & binding setups available, but the freecarve board spectrum is still relatively sparse. 

[xy9ine]

On 2/27/2019 at 11:11 AM, Allee said:

It shouldn't be about hardboots v softboots ... it should be about putting trenches in groom in whatever way works for you. That's how we're going to grow "carving" as a sport.

this. 

[pmorita]

18 minutes ago, xy9ine said:

this old(er) guy concurs. there are a few stiff boot & binding setups available, but the freecarve board spectrum is still relatively sparse. 

A few years ago I struggled to find camber boards without going custom.  At least now there are some better options.  Granted they have weird cutouts, nose/tail shapes that look like can openers, strange graphics and funky model names (Hot Knife, Black Snowboard of Death????).  I consider it a step in the right direction as I can't do anything on a rocker board. 

[xy9ine]

black snowboard of death?! *frantically googles for more info*. alas, that deck has about 8" of superfluous tip & tail, AND it's too narrow, but i like the sentiment. 

i still have to hand it to MIG - there's not much on the current market that measures up to the diamond blade. the donek flux looks rad, but it comes at a stiff price premium.  

 

[Gabe T]

6 hours ago, Jack M said:

I see hope in youth racing

Our hill has traditionally hosted our Provincial Alpine snowboard championships and that is where I would see a large number of younger riders participate in the sport.   I wonder how many of them actually continue to ride once they are done with their racing programs.    In all my years of riding, I'm not sure I can recall meeting any carvers that had a racing background when they were younger.

[fish]

8 hours ago, AcousticBoarder said:

I also think it is different for someone to say they are interested and go to a shop and rent a whole setup from a "knowledgeable person" for a day than it is for them to either a) mess with their gear which is comfortable and setup just the way they like that doesn't look the same anyway, or b) borrow gear that looks weird, expensive, and complicated from this random and usually strange, neon clad person they just met

I think you identified the real problem. What if we came together as a group and resolved to stop wearing neon and acting strange? 

[Corey]

18 minutes ago, fish said:

stop wearing neon and acting strange?

So, outright lie to people? 

[Pokolikrat]

Let’s face the facts. It is sport of old farts with no future here in States. We are going the way of mono ski to obscurity. Last weekend I got the best explanation. I was riding with Joe at North Star. In the line a front of us some young local bums with naked asses. After they sat on chair one turned and shout at us “Go back to Russia we ride soft boots in America.” Well we are not even Russians. I guess we were lucky he did not accuse us of collusion.

[daveo]

3 hours ago, Ladia said:

 “Go back to Russia we ride soft boots in America.” Well we are not even Russians.

What a piece of sh*t. Come to Japan, my friend. 

[fish]

14 hours ago, softbootsurfer said:

Seriously, the average Kid is not going to like Just Carving Turns...nor should they...Racing sure, Like David Winters Boys, who are Carvers and outstanding Racers, however, that is not the Norm...also, many Really Good Carvers here in aspen, went back to Skis, after the industry made Skis, that can Carve better...Larry, Jeff, Alan, and many other Pure Carvers, still get on a Stick now and then, and Rip, but 90% of their time nowadays, is on Skis...any real Growth would have to come from the SB side first, while that seems to be happening even here, over the last 5 years and last year picking up speed...It is not just Carvingthey are into, but rather doing all the other stuff and now also doing some Carving turns on the way somewhere :- )

I love it when they crash and leave a 50 ft trail of skier flotsam. I did a quick search for videos of skiers carving (on skis). I didn’t see anything that looked WOW! But I’m open to the possibility. If anyone can show me awesome carving on skis I’d love to see it. I bought skis this season and 2-planking doesn’t feel right. I appreciate their practical value. But I’m not feeling it.

[slapos]

have a look at Ted Ligety vids.

he is the only I approve.

[lowrider]

10 hours ago, Ladia said:

Let’s face the facts. It is sport of old farts with no future here in States. We are going the way of mono ski to obscurity. Last weekend I got the best explanation. I was riding with Joe at North Star. In the line a front of us some young local bums with naked asses. After they sat on chair one turned and shout at us “Go back to Russia we ride soft boots in America.” Well we are not even Russians. I guess we were lucky he did not accuse us of collusion.

Were the naked assed punks wearing red hats ?  

[TVR]

You will find jerks on all isles. Anyone can say anything about your age or what you ride, but ultimately, it means nothing if the result they can produce does not match the vitriol their mouths can produce. Just be true to the sport, and as they leave their garbage planks sprawled across the snow because they are too lazy to put on the rack, or they just go up and down the hill without any style, lay down the carves or train to be your fastest and those who have the open mind will see it.

 

People making comments like the above are not the ones whos minds you will open or change and believe me, the people behind you think they are jerks as well.

[philw]

Since 1989 I don't recall seeing more than a tiny number of hard booters in North America. The death of hard-booting was much more obvious in Europe, where back in the day half of us used hard boots. Even now, there are many more hard booters in Europe than North America, perhaps because of the way resorts  are run over here. Most people ride more hard pack than in North America, and  off-piste stuff can be more "ski mountaineering" than "playing in the trees".

I guess it depends what you think your core business is: what precisely is it you don't want to die, here?

On this site you'll read that a shocking number of peoples' "game changing" shift was to bindings whose flex was apparently more appropriate to their needs than the beautiful stiff bindings they'd bought in the USA. The problem there would seem to be failure to adapt to the customers' needs.

I've no recent experience of US board builders, so I can't comment on them specifically. Oxcess seems to be a good example of a company who can be cool and sell gear to both soft and hard boot people. Ignoring powder seems to me to be a mistake, especially in North America. People will point out that hard-boot board builders don't do that, but they don't in my opinion build modern competitive powder designs. Their stuff looks like hard booters failing to understand powder, to me it's all wrong.

If you needed a gateway drug,  well sell something which rocks in the soft boot world, then tease people over the line. I don't think it will work the other way around. Catek I suppose tried that. Or the split board thing is much-hyped and groovy... the marketing's brilliant, and the technology is hard boots. Maybe Atomic will sell more snowboard hard boots than Deluxe  



 

Edited March 1, 2019 by philw
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