Growth in our sport?

[Neil Gendzwill]

23 hours ago, wrathfuldeity said:

Why not do a "carvers fest or ball?"

There are multiple events like this run every year.  The big one used to be in Aspen every February, but that is cancelled for the foreseeable future.    When it was running in Aspen it attracted about 200 people across the week that came from all over North America and a few from Europe.  There were demos available, and clinics held.   I'm not sure it did much to grow the sport as the general public were more curious than willing to participate, but it sure was a blast.

This year we had one at Turner Mountain in Montana.  Unfortunately as that is a closed event it won't do much to improve the popularity of the sport.

Riceball organizes one at Nakiska (near Calgary) most years.  We occasionally see a newbie join from there but mostly it's the same people each year, getting together for a weekend of fun.  Shred organizes one in Whitefish every January, and it's much the same as far as I've heard.

 

[lonbordin]

On 3/11/2019 at 3:33 PM, wrathfuldeity said:

Why not do a "carvers fest or ball?" 

There's also even larger get together's in Europe.  Check this forum for more details- https://www.extremecarving.com/forum/index.php

[Kurt Swanson]

As far as growth goes, I don't think alpine will ever get much more popular than it is already. There just aren't that many of us goofballs out there. But honestly, if it wasn't for the Bomber forum and this one, I never would have gotten a decent used board with bindings, tons of carving advice and hundreds videos to watch. I would suggest our little online community has done as much as anything else to promote this sport. I've been a member of a few other forums and none of them are as friendly and as helpful as this one. Where would your riding level be at today if it wasn't for the people on this site?

Edited March 13, 2019 by TSUNAMIBAY

[kipstar]

This topic comes up a bit - I believe it's a bit like windsurfing vs kiteboarding - kiteboarding maybe looks cooler, more visible, learning curve isn't steep...so it's growing. Windsurfing especially racing is quite static eg formula.

Looking at growth strategies, of course cheaper gear, more access is a good thing, and growth breeds visibility breeds interest breeds growth.... In my mind the massive growth in interest in softboot carving is our 'in' because at least in Japan, the number of guys seriously carving is way more than 5 years ago, just many are on softboot.  And from Thailand of the good riders I know, from me + 1 instructor that I know of who could carve 5 years ago, now there are many riding stiff softboots and carving deep turns...and some of those guys are now asking me about hardboots and raceboards/carving boards as an extension of what they do now.

If we were grouped together with that mob - Ryan klapton etc, they also have mostly buying online, riser plates, expensive bindings and boards - this is a group where the learning curve isn't so great for a few wholikely would switch for some days and use soft boots some days.  Ski more of a learning curve.  Freestyle boarders and assorted other gapers would have the biggest learning curve and most likely dropout rate.

Incentives to consider: racing is definitely one. Technical contest (popular in Japan judging ppl on technique) is another.  If u need to drive price down then could consider a highly restricted board boot combo (eg board must be 170 production in either 1 of 2 flexes with 1 binding model (hard) 1 binding model (soft) and no plate and choice of 2 boots (hard) 2 boots (soft) and then set up a series based on this.  Similar to how formula or rsx windsurfing solved some of the gear war that windsurfing had ended up with (now replaced with foiling which will likely kill windsurf and kiting for many poorer ppl).  Donek has kind of that ideawith the pilot, imagine if everyone showing up to a race had a single board (a pilot) in either a stiff or soft flex based on body size and no models replacing and updating except every 4 years - it would create a 2nd hand mkt and stop the huge depreciation...for richer guys they would keep this model for that race series.

But it requires someone to make the first major step to create a series...in Triathlon Thai boxing and windsurf those entities exist (sports I know and am involved with) but snowboarding? Not sure. Maybe fis would need to be the driver but whether that would be an interest for them I don't know; unlike Olympics fis seems to love gear free for alls.  Back in the day some guy had mountain dew fund the original pro tour back in the ISF days...i am thinking a rung below that.  Schools, colleges, adults, masters.  Make it a grass roots participation sport like triathlon.

It seems with crossfit Americans at least appreciate sports turning anything into a group activity with some ability to compare to others. So race or similar is needed, it's just logistically fought to .

Option 2 using the hot chick theory, if u could get a few more ladies in, that would help too. Then again if u just made hardboot paleo friendly, offered guys bonus points for growing beards and encouraging people to wander around claiming gluten allergies maybe all those crossfit ppl woudl get into hardboots.

[Chouinard]

1 hour ago, kipstar said:

This topic comes up a bit - I believe it's a bit like windsurfing vs kiteboarding - kiteboarding maybe looks cooler, more visible, learning curve isn't steep...so it's growing. Windsurfing especially racing is quite static eg formula.

My experience with all three sports [alpine carving, windsurfing & kiteboarding]  started with buying expensive gear and learning complicated controls in a dynamic environment which eventually creates the same dilemma. The better you get the better conditions you desire which means unless you live at a location conducive to success frustration sets in because your opportunities to advance diminish as you progress.  In my case I sold my windsurfing gear after more than 10 years of chasing wind and sent my kite and board out west so my son could use it.

Last weekend at a local resort north of Sault Ste. Marie 50% of the soft boot boarders were carving. Of those 50% carved exclusively.  If there were boards with a rigid soft boot binding matched to a board available for tryout then the boot issue goes away.  If someone likes their experience they may be more likely to jump to a hard boot.

There's always going to be a subset of the population who want to carve, its just a matter of availability of equipment and guidance. 

Your idea of a low cost forgiving board/boot setup sounds like a good entry point to make an impression on wannabes. 

[Corey]

I finally got someone out on some gear! A coworker is a previous ski industry guy: ex ski racer, ex ski shop manager, etc.  While chatting about a day trip with a few other coworkers, I mentioned that I had equipment he could try. His face lit up when I mentioned a Skwal - he'd never heard of that before. 

We started the morning with him on skis and me on my Donek MK. This guy carves a mean turn! Super aggressive, touching hips often - was beautiful to watch! He chased me to match my lines and said he was surprised how early and hard I engaged the uphill edge, and was laughing at how the tracks showed the overlapping trenches in transitions. 

I put him on a Thias Easy Jungle Skwal in his ski boots. The expected little falls, laughing, and death spirals to a stop occurred, but he liked the new challenge. Is he a convert? Not yet, but he seems open to it and likes the new approach to a ski area he was a little bored with. I'll keep providing the opportunity as often as possible. 

It was REALLY nice to not have to deal with boots. No sore feet! Just sore muscles. 

[lowrider]

Corey the guy is a pro leading you on like that.

[Corey]

1 hour ago, lowrider said:

Corey the guy is a pro leading you on like that.

Who's leading on who?   

[Technick]

I see a somewhat bright future for Hard Boots. More skiers and softbooters are carving every year, some of them might be eventually interested in trying Alpine Snowboarding because of what we do on the slopes. The best thing each of us can do is be friendly with curious skiers or snowboarder and, if you can offer help, tips or even lend equipment for a day of initiation, do it! Just yesterday I got a couple of people coming up to me asking questions about the equipment and technique, asking if I know the other two guys who also ride Alpine Boards (... and yes I did  ). Two skiers came up to me asking about that "Coiler" board they never heard about, they where ex-hardbooters... I told them that modern board shapes and materials where a lot better than 15 years old Alpine Board, more versatile and easier to ride, performance and comfort is much better now too. Maybe I planted a seed in their mind to eventually come back to it.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Technick

[neanderthal]

I was at a mountaineering/backcountry store this weekend to purchase some Atomic AT boots. After the usual size questions then come what type of skiier are you and what are you planning on using these for because another boot may be better for you.  The dumbfounded look when I responded that I did not ski was priceless!  Ears were perked that I wanted this particular model as it is preferred for hardboot splitboarding and I soon noticed that there were two people helping me instead of one.  30 min into the fitting I find out that my extra assistant is a snowboarder who also splitboards and  has always wanted to try hardboots.  A third employee not working that day is a hardboot splitboarder and it was suggested he could help with any mods to make the boots better for riding.  As there was interest I offered to bring in some plate bindings and hardboots. This was enthusiastically accepted and I cant wait to hear how in goes for him this week.

A couple weeks ago on a powder day hike I met another guy riding phantom bidings and Arcteryx boots.  He was happy to talk and told me he likes the setup so much that he is using the same on his solid board now full time.

3-5 ys ago anyone I saw riding softboots was sliding and at best occasionally slarving.  Today depending on the day 30-50% are carving at least some of the turns.  Boards have improved with many directional boards that are fun to  ride off the shelf.  (I have a quiver of coilers, a few tankers and a prior but still ride my jones ultracraft quite a bit - all with hardboots)  Softboots are not the same as when I started in Sorrels with no support. 

When we talk about growth in our sport what does that mean?

Carving - certainly more people are carving even if its on softboots

Hardboots - not all on hardboots carve and certain softboots are set up about as rigid as some plastic shell boots I have

Racing - I expect that the percentage of people on this forum that race is low double digits. 

Alpine lost out to park long ago because one is more exciting to watch.  People are interested, excited and motivated by what they see to a certain extent but we are approaching or just now recognizing a divergence again in snowboarding.  The park stuff while exciting is so extreme that few people actual aspire to emulate X-game/Redbull style riding. The average Joe/Jane doesnt ride switch or fly through the air.  Riders already see a carving board with isolation plates more like a formula car than a sports car and as they give up on having the board that won the latest X-game/Redbull contest in favor of a resort board we will see changes.

If the goal is hardboot riding then I would say that in the US the growing appeal of backcountry in conjunction with AT boots is where growth can be expected.  Hardboots are basically stagnant for what 20y?  Meanwhile AT boots give a good sole, lighter weight, mold-able liners & SHELLS  and ubiquitous availability (new or used). Throw a spring system on and WOW while still being able to ski. Additionally there is real exposure with film promoting backcountry and big mountain riding.

This forum even has split the topics where the old bomber used to have all under Carving. The reality is that Snowboarding is at a point of divergence and that is not the death of what we love but shows vitality in a sport that looked to be dying.