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So who's at fault?


JRAZZ

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More times i watch it feels like the skier is coming a little from behind. Both are not looking to the sides.

Feels also that the lady on a snowboard overreacted a little and maybe if she has done another heelside it could have been avoided.

A lot ifs..

Doesn't matter. Hope that everybody is ok!

Edited by slapos
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51 minutes ago, slapos said:

More times i watch it feels like the skier is coming a little from behind. Both are not looking to the sides.

Feels also that the lady on a snowboard overreacted a little and maybe if she has done another heelside it could have been avoided.

A lot ifs..

Doesn't matter. Hope that everybody is ok!

Regardless who is in front, if you're travelling at warp speed and your carves are taking up the entire width of the run with 0 awareness like a psycho maniac, it's just irresponsible, risk seeking behaviour.

Hard to know much from that angle, but it might even look like the run is banked in the middle and the skier can't even see that snowboarder as he/she is turning toward her.

From that small clip, I reckon regardless whoever is technically at fault, the blame is on the snowboarder. It's not 'normal' (to non-alpine riders) what the snowboarder is doing, not everyone is looking out for people swinging from the far trees into their line from 15m away at 100km/h.

Edited by daveo
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2 minutes ago, daveo said:

0 awareness

Ouch!  That's some Bad PR for carvers!

Have to agree with daveo - 0 awareness of surroundings.   From this view the hardbooters at fault as he rides into the skiers path/overtakes the skier.

The Carver see's her a full second+ before impact and keeps coming which almost makes it look intentional!   Like your spraying somebody with snow at the end of a run.

As he finishes his toeside turn he comes up for the transition to start back and see's her and has a full second or more to react......but really doesn't.

Easy to armchair quarterback but I would have Dove for My Heelside!  Not sure it would have made a difference in this situation but at least it would have showed you made an effort to avoid her.

Hope she was ok and doesn't sue.........    

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The very late reaction from the boarder indicates they weren't aware of what's in their path or travelling along beside them. 

I experienced a very similar thing, except the other guy was also turning towards me. Scary closing speeds! We both went into full-panic heel side turns (me regular, him goofy) and did a high-speed pattycake game. Relative collision speed was less than 10 mph. We both came out standing and stopped shortly after. Consensus was:"Holy crap! Are you ok?" 

I have no idea where he came from as he wasn't there two turns earlier. 

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Swept the legs with perfect form! 2 pts for the take down. Technically downhill skiier has the right of way sooooo... but in all seriousness I never assume the random skiier has any idea of what I am doing. The boarder totally had enough time to dig in the heelside to avoid the collision but assumed the skiier would compensate and change their turn trajectory to not collide but the skiier was too in their zone to care. Both lacked slope awareness. 

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Skier sees the boarder, her head rotates towards the boarder and then she tries to avoid the collision. Her last turn away from the pending collision is more aggressive than the previous turns.

1 hour ago, barryj said:

The Carver see's her a full second+ before impact and keeps coming which almost makes it look intentional!   Like your spraying somebody with snow at the end of a run.

OR is unaware of his own closing velocity.

 

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I agree that it would be nice to see the ten seconds before what happened.

That said, from what is there it looks to me like this is pretty clearly the snowboarders fault; since he effectively carved into the skier from the side. It looks to me like the carver was trying to avoid the skier downhill from him (barely visible in the video) and was probably focusing on avoiding him, and failed to notice the other skier nearly parallel to his position on the slope, that he actually hit as a consequence. 

It’s the kind of mistake that anyone could make: fixating one potential collision and neglecting to notice another danger altogether. Ultimately seems like a matter of: skill vs speed and situational awareness at that speed. Having the skills to rip turns at high speeds is one thing, having the skills to rip turns at high speeds while also maintaining total awareness of your surroundings and the ability to perform evasive maneuvers at the speed you are running is another thing altogether. I’d put most of the blame on the snowboarder here, but @ace is right: a longer video would probably tell a more nuanced story.

Agree with what others say that the skier is not looking to the side but ... she is moving straight downhill, and looking where she needs to in order to prevent herself from hitting people that are directly in her path. To my mind: because the snowboarder is suddenly running across the slope, it is his responsibility to avoid obstacles that are across the slope, since this is his chosen path. Watching again, it looks to me like the snowboarder target-fixated when he suddenly saw the skier in his path — panicked instead of hurling himself into the next turn as hard as possible (or digging in uphill) to avoid the collision: riding faster than his brain could think. This could happen to anyone, but it generally means you were riding out of control: since you are not accounting for your own reaction timing.

If the skier was overtaking from uphill and the carver was making predictable turns, my assessment might change. A lot of people on the mountain (as on the highway) end up skiing in crowded packs, instead of looking for the gaps in between the human-dense areas ... whether you are a skier or a snowboarder: failing to avoid crowded sections of the mountain (and contributing more density and danger to them) seems like a pretty risky behaviour. If she indeed was overtaking: and then did not pay attention to watch for the downhill snowboarders whereabouts while overtaking: that would change things in my view.

I also tend to feel like: you take on a certain amount or responsibility when you are the delta. If you are moving much faster than everyone else around you, you are bringing the danger, so you should be responsible for making sure it does not affect other people around you who are moving slower and present a less significant danger to others in the event of a collision. Snowboarder was moving way faster than anyone else on that slope.

I suspect a longer video would reveal that both had ways they could have prevented this from happening. The better question in these kind of events is: how could we have avoided this?

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As an aside, I really wish the mountains would try and take a more creative approach to collision prevention. In a faraway fantasy world, we could dream of would-be skiers and snowboarders being forced to pass some kind of basic competency test or whatnot.

I think a better solution would be timed-entry lift tickets, now that everything is digital. It is totally within the realm of possibility for mountains to force skiers/snowboarders to wait before riding the lift if they have gotten down the mountain in record time. They could even increase or reduce the required time to wait, given the number of people on the mountain that day. This would probably go unnoticed by most people, except for those that are more likely to have to wait, and result in less crowded slopes. Ideally: people who like to ride really fast would learn to wait on the mountain for a nice gap, so that they can do their thing safely without having to wait in the lift maze—and for those that don’t—having to wait at the bottom of the run would identify excessively fast skiers to ski patrol and everyone else: which would be very useful. To make things less onerous for skilled skiers and riders: you could potentially offer a class that reduces your wait time if you pass an exam for skill and competence at higher speeds, potentially with multiple levels. 

Probably a dumb idea, but I feel like the skiers code is somewhat of a joke, and mountains could really be doing a lot more to make the experience of being on the mountain more enjoyable, and safer (particularly now that lift tickets are stupid expensive, and shit is more crowded than ever). 

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I half regret the original subject on this thread. Ultimately who's at fault is less important than how can this be prevented.

 

There are many things the mountain and the skier could have done but thinking as the carving snowboarder I was wondering what could be done to prevent this. The easy answer - situational awareness - is not necessarily the right answer. Once you're carving and a slower skier is coming up fast your options are more limited. Better would be to really wait until the slope is clear.

Are there any thing that we could get used to doing to prevent accidents like this?

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7 minutes ago, JRAZZ said:

I half regret the original subject on this thread.

So, really, you're at fault for posting the damn thing?

Once we've committed to a specific motor movement, it takes about 200ms or 2/10s of a second to cancel or inhibit the action (which is that sense of helplessness in watching yourself throw trash into a bin even after you have just recognized there's no liner in it). At high speeds, 200ms can translate into lot of distance. 

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40 minutes ago, JRAZZ said:

Are there any thing that we could get used to doing to prevent accidents like this?

My favorite piece of carving advice applies - look where you actually want the carve to end, not downhill.  Not even diagonally downhill.  This does wonders for carving technique, and it's also safer.

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1 hour ago, JRAZZ said:

 

Are there any thing that we could get used to doing to prevent accidents like this?

You've  been riding with us for a while now, with a few exceptions, the majority of us throw in a lot of six checks, keeping our heads on a swivel, modify our lines( straight liners gunna straight line, they rarely deviate from their heading,, so change  your heading to move yourself out of harms way), wait for openings, tighten up, or loosen up your turns when you come upon a kluster of kooks, ,most importantly, put it sideways if in doubt. I've been known to use others in our posse as a governor to slow me down.  Riding in a group definitely helps, especially in the middle of the pack

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Self preservation is the ultimate goal and the responsibility is on you. Downhill skier may have the right of way technically but I have come to the conclusion that the majority of people have no clue of their own spatial awareness and for this reason i make it my responsibility. Sometimes it means i have to abort my game plan but I reserve the right to discuss the situation with anyone who ignores the # one rule for everyone who slides down a hill. I don't try and stand my ground on the sidewalk when a tractor trailer makes a tight right turn. Self preservation !

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3 hours ago, Jack M said:

My favorite piece of carving advice applies - look where you actually want the carve to end, not downhill.  Not even diagonally downhill.  This does wonders for carving technique, and it's also safer.

This is actually something I have been practicing lately and helps with carving technique! I just get dizzy when I make 10 turns 😝. Ultimately, I don’t want to go to hospital.... so it is my responsibility to look and check.

However I have seen many people just straight-line, especially on steep, wide, groomed runs that I didn’t even see even though I turned back to look 2 turns ago. Very unfortunate...

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I've been hit twice in the last 5 days.  Unlike the video, I was the lower velocity rider in both cases.  Total yard sales for the skiers, but I didn't even get knocked down.  Unfortunately, today's run in left me with some torn titanal to deal with on my favorite board.  Ugh.  Sunny days are dangerous.  Situational awareness only goes so far as you can't be looking backwards the whole time and situations change quickly on sunny days.

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43 minutes ago, johnasmo said:

  Situational awareness only goes so far as you can't be looking backwards the whole time and situations change quickly on sunny days.

Another good reason to visit MCC reduce neck strain and ride with confidence that a fellow MCC'er won't clip you from behind and if they do 100 of them are likely to beat the shit out of you for breaking their # 1 rule

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