Is "relaxing" carving possible?

[Corey]

7 hours ago, pow4ever said:

To the un-initiated I look semi-competent; but in reality I am on that hairy edge of losing control....

Sounds familiar... Spending time in that zone is my favorite. The nice thing about carving hard is that losing control often means the carve turns from a pencil line to a wide swath or a choppy mess, from which you can recover without a big crash. At worst you're suddenly sliding on your hip or stomach, not a full-on highside flip. So, it's not that crazy to be at your ability limits frequently if you want. 

6 hours ago, west carven said:

simple... make savage/brutal look effortless... 

Ken Lau had an awesome video from WCS or SES 2010 with the Pureboarding folks with classical music playing. He had footage from the side of the run, showing nice peaceful carves. Then he cut to a knee cam of the same footage, showing the violence and brutality of how it appeared to him. 0:34 to 0:52 in that clip. I saved an offline copy, but I can't find the original online now. Such a great demonstration of how different the observer vs. rider perspective is. 

[pow4ever]

8 hours ago, dredman said:

helps get the brain out of the equation.   Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fast.

aahh.. yes.  There are a few time the body goes into auto pilot mode.  I don't know what happen but I recovered.  Trying to capture that ever elusive "lighting in a bottle" moment have been difficult. 

8 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

resident sage Beckmann AG suggests - Take everything inessential away until all you are left with is the carve.

Agree 100%  Bruce Lee said this: “It is not daily increase but daily decrease, hack away the unessential. The closer to the source, the less wastage there is.”
Getting there however is a whole different ball of wax.  T.O.M.....

8 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

I’ve been practicing kendo for over 35 years now. 

Nice!  I figured there will be couple other niche sport aficionado.
I practice for about 4 years; stopped after I got my first dan and had my first taste of tournament.
It's one thing that I always wanted to go back to.  I find there are quite a bit of parallel in everything we do if we go deep enough.
Carving-do(the way of the carve):  look for the perfect carve.

[pow4ever]

2 hours ago, Corey said:

Sounds familiar... Spending time in that zone is my favorite. The nice thing about carving hard is that losing control often means the carve turns from a pencil line to a wide swath or a choppy mess, from which you can recover without a big crash. At worst you're suddenly sliding on your hip or stomach, not a full-on highside flip. So, it's not that crazy to be at your ability limits frequently if you want. 

Ken Lau had an awesome video from WCS or SES 2010 with the Pureboarding folks with classical music playing. He had footage from the side of the run, showing nice peaceful carves. Then he cut to a knee cam of the same footage, showing the violence and brutality of how it appeared to him. 0:34 to 0:52 in that clip. I saved an offline copy, but I can't find the original online now. Such a great demonstration of how different the observer vs. rider perspective is. 

Nicely put!  Love it.  When we are commit to the turn; even when wipe out take place, our body are in the right position and chance of injury are low.  I get spank when the mind can't decide what to do.
Would love to see that video!

----------------------------------------------
the duality and juxtaposition between savage and tranquil is interesting.
I can see the progression from:
It's either relax or ape on meth  <-- where I am now
to:
it's both relax and primal
to:
it's neither.

One day....

[st_lupo]

I love that this detoured off into kendo.  To me there are tons of parallels between hardboot carving and martial arts (relentless pursuit of perfection, etc).  One of the hardest things to develop in karate (for me at least) is to practically develop the ability to maximize power and speed by relaxing.  Learning to relax the body while exerting only the required muscles is bloody hard but it is one of the things that separates the people with fast/fluid techniques from the sweathogs (me).    

I always thought flying sailplanes would be graceful, lazy and relaxing until I had my first lesson.  It can look effortless and relaxing from the outside, but don't think that it is ever a passive activity.  Stability during the turn is a very dynamic thing and there are probably dozens of things per second that need to be adjusted and tuned; the posture needs to be correct, weight distribution needs to be guided and adjustments need to be made to match variable trail conditions.  To get that relaxed look you need to be able to both maintain that dynamic stability while minimizing/removing any unnecessary movements/tension, plus have the mindset/confidence that only comes after hours and hours and hours of riding, experimenting, crashing and learning.

[JohnE]

I have regressed from hardboots to soft. The high angles that a wide board allow seem much more stable to me. 

If I just stand on the floor with my feet at low angels -vs- high angles and have someone try to push me over, I find that I'm much more stable with the high angle stance. I feel that translates to stability and a more relaxed experience on the slope. 

Also, I find that driving my knees forward and back is much more natural than driving them laterally. 

[Neil Gendzwill]

1 minute ago, JohnE said:

I have regressed from hardboots to soft. The high angles that a wide board allow seem much more stable to me. 

If I just stand on the floor with my feet at low angels -vs- high angles and have someone try to push me over, I find that I'm much more stable with the high angle stance. I feel that translates to stability and a more relaxed experience on the slope. 

Also, I find that driving my knees forward and back is much more natural than driving them laterally. 

Angles are measured such that 0 degrees is straight across the board.  Soft boot angles are typically under 30 degrees and hard boot angles typically over 45 degrees.  So when you say you are more comfortable at a high angled stance but have regressed to soft boots I am a little confused, I think you are measuring angles 90 degrees out of sync with the rest of the snowboarding world.

[arneburner]

8 minutes ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Angles are measured such that 0 degrees is straight across the board.  Soft boot angles are typically under 30 degrees and hard boot angles typically over 45 degrees.  So when you say you are more comfortable at a high angled stance but have regressed to soft boots I am a little confused, I think you are measuring angles 90 degrees out of sync with the rest of the snowboarding world.

 You are correct. I rode with John last week. He does ride much better with the lower angles of soft boots, even tho the soft boots and bindings are stiff ones.

[billyt.]

typically we all meet at 11am at the top of the mountain, take our boots off and warm up with a Bloody Mary.  That is very relaxing.  Feet always feel much better in the boot now compared to early am.  Much more relaxed while carving after that!

[pokkis]

Relaxed depends also steepness, what is steep is for one it is not steep for another. As long as it is on your comfort zone you can ride it as relaxed or Flegmatic. If it gets too steep for rider, then it is another story. Naturally it is also combination of steepness and wide of slope, more narrow one on steep kills also relax.

I¨m usually riding on green or not steep reds due where i live, but lerned to ride steeper ones too but if slope is steep and narrow i get scary due been riding out of slope range few times.

5 minutes ago, billyt. said:

typically we all meet at 11am at the top of the mountain, take our boots off and warm up with a Bloody Mary.  That is very relaxing.  Feet always feel much better in the boot now compared to early am.  Much more relaxed while carving after that!

Even i know you joking, i never drink anything as long as i¨m riding. Just like driving.

[JohnE]

48 minutes ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Angles are measured such that 0 degrees is straight across the board.  Soft boot angles are typically under 30 degrees and hard boot angles typically over 45 degrees.  So when you say you are more comfortable at a high angled stance but have regressed to soft boots I am a little confused, I think you are measuring angles 90 degrees out of sync with the rest of the snowboarding world.

I always get that angle definition wrong. It seems more logical that zero degrees would be where the board axis and the boot axis align. 

So to correct my above statement: I find low angles to be much more stable (and relaxing) than high angles. 

9 minutes ago, billyt. said:

typically we all meet at 11am at the top of the mountain, take our boots off and warm up with a Bloody Mary.  That is very relaxing.  Feet always feel much better in the boot now compared to early am.  Much more relaxed while carving after that!

You should come to Colorado where you can legally partake MJ for a really relaxing ride. 

[billyt.]

11 minutes ago, JohnE said:

You should come to Colorado where you can legally partake MJ for a really relaxing ride.

Lived there back in the day 89-94.  Never could handle it while riding, or surfing, zoned me out.  My high has always been enjoying the moment with friends riding, or sailing hooting each other on.  No judging here though.  plenty of friends partake.  Too many mushrooms in college perhaps?

[Pat Donnelly]

My local go to board for the last 3 seasons is a 165 BXFR with HB's and plate bindings.  

Great response and feel on easy blues and even at slower speeds.

Running lower angle 21 to 25 front / 8 to 15 rear.

And I believe there is one for sale 

 

This clip of Gabe ripping on a BX got me interested in wider boards 

 

[Beckmann AG]

On 1/14/2019 at 7:40 PM, pow4ever said:

Another way to frame this question:

Can just "doing the norm"/"enter style/technique here" suffice for steep/icy/narrow?

or it's always rabid ape on meth?

Don't get me wrong; I loved the aspect of "active mediation" of carving.
The single pureness of focus on not dying where all life's little/big worry melts away.

At the end of a long carving day:  I would like to tackle the difficult trails like the skier and not resort to limited myself to less challenge trails.

No/maybe

Not unless you like it that way.

->No, because 'doing the norm' is an exercise specifically designed to reduce postural complexity, and the negative impact that can have on the advanced beginner/intermediate rider and their desire to link clean arcs on relatively gentle terrain.

This means full body lean, and full body lean takes up a lot of area, meanwhile requiring very little effort other than focus.

->Maybe, because technique often looks like something other than what it really is, and the execution can be readily mangled. In other words, you can look the part, but not play the part.

->If you like to exert yourself, then go for it. But don't believe for a minute that riding well in demanding context has to be an all-day grunt-fest.

(though this might explain the sock funk you mentioned in another thread).

 

E.G., On a good day, my physical exertion is a low hum in the back ground, and it's mostly a matter of focus to ensure the timing of select movement is sufficient for line choice.

On a really good day, it's not easy to tell which is uphill, and which is downhill, as the pressure load underfoot is nearly constant through the arc, and the only external cues are the familiar trees trailside.

But this is me, and me isn't you, nor should we be.

Part of the difficulty in learning to ride well, is that when we learn at the low end, we're mostly learning large movements of large body parts with plenty of time and area in which to make mistakes.

And then, on steeper terrain, that doesn't work on account of 'the maths'.

Too much energy, not enough time.

Solution? 

Find a way to undo/invert what you've already learned.

Or become Dr Manhattan.

->With pants.<-

Work within the system; become the system; rather trying to fight the system.

Of course, that takes a different mindset, also different tactics.

Letting go of what you know, what you do, who you are as an athlete is not easy. It is, however, one of the better ways to improve your game.

If you take the time to watch highly effective athletes, you'll notice they move with an ease that suggests they have more time to get their work done than do their opponents.

This is because they can get that job done with fewer discrete movements.  Or their movements are less muscular, and therefore more accurate. Point being, if your means of riding is more 'complicated' than it needs to be, that complexity, regardless of how practiced, will limit your overall capacity. Particularly when the energy level is high, and time is short.

So start by questioning why you ride the way you ride. Why do you make movement X, from posture Y. Is it because it's a direct line from A to B, or is it simply because someone you respect told you to do it that way?

Are you trying to anchor the light parts in order to move/shove the heavy part, or has the heavy part become the tether for the light parts?

Either way, part of the answer to your question can be found here:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Beckmann AG

[lonbordin]

The first skier... flows like water, beautiful. Thanks.

I will say, without prodding knowing I'll get a beatin' or worse a tongue lashing, for the general audience that @Beckmann AG is the smoothest rider I've ever ridden with...

Even his one footed technique is fantastic.  He's probably the best one footed rider there's ever been AND he rides a very firm setup.

[RobertAlexander]

Riding the first couple weeks is less relaxing,  but once the body is in shape for top to bottom non stop runs, N.E.,  it becomes more relaxing and less work.    Thinking in a physical fitness manner.  February comes and yes,  nice and relaxed while hammering it.   And while being so relaxed while hammering it,  try to hammer it a little more. 

Edited January 16, 2019 by RobertAlexander

[SunSurfer]

6 hours ago, lonbordin said:

The first skier... flows like water, beautiful. Thanks.

I will say, without prodding knowing I'll get a beatin' or worse a tongue lashing, for the general audience that @Beckmann AG is the smoothest rider I've ever ridden with...

Even his one footed technique is fantastic.  He's probably the best one footed rider there's ever been AND he rides a very firm setup.

Do you have a link to any recently recorded video of Erik's riding? I have a goal of a smooth fluid style and would love to see really good examples. I've seen the videos linked to his website. 

In his website videos he has a tendency on entering the heelside turn to drop back the outside arm and then as the turn progresses bring that arm forward and square up his shoulders across the board. It's almost as if there's pre-turn counter rotation of the upper body and then a rotation into the turn.

On toe side his rear knee drops/is pushed down quite considerably as part of producing both edge pressure and body angulation at the waist. Looks like that knee touches/drags reasonably often, and the angulation looks a  little awkward to my eye.

But the videos are at least 5 years old, maybe older given the resolution. Everyones' style evolves/develops with time.

Edited January 16, 2019 by SunSurfer

[softbootsurfer]

11 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

 

Yep 

 

On a good day, my physical exertion is a low hum in the back ground, and it's mostly a matter of focus to ensure the timing of select movement is sufficient for line choice.

On a really good day, it's not easy to tell which is uphill, and which is downhill, as the pressure load underfoot is nearly constant through the arc, and the only external cues are the familiar trees trailside.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Neil Gendzwill]

10 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

I have a goal of a smooth fluid style and would love to see really good examples.

You’ve ridden with Riceball, don’t think anybody is smoother than him. 

[scottishsurfer]

I ride roughly 20hrs a week 48+ weeks a year because i live near by an indoor snow slope where i can ride when the mountains are bare. In the short period I've ridden compared to many here (4 seasons) it has become less physically demanding as i have become more efficient and precise with my movements and yet this is in contrast to my equipment which is far more demanding in terms of physicality and skill level required. Its not a fitness thing either i'm fit but when i started to snowboard i was still racing downhill mountain biking and at probably my peak in terms of fitness yet and id feel beat up after an hour of riding a soft floppy twin whereas now i can go 10am to 10pm with an hour break on super stiff incline.......... Id agree with many here smoothness and efficiency comes with time invested and as a result i believe that pays back significantly in the long term.

[pow4ever]

Off topic:

Thank you the Good Doctor @Beckmann AG!  Watchman is one of my favorite; right up there with V for Vendetta.
for the word smiths:  various version of the v speech using other alphabet https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/yf3hs/i_translated_the_v_speech_from_v_for_vendetta/

Back to the subject:

Further refinement:  how to effortless clear carved on icy/steep/narrow trail?

1.  T.O.M -- build up the muscle, experience.  You want to carve steep?  gotta ride more steep.  No amount of green/blue riding is going to help with ridding black.  Checked.
2.  Technique -- less movement, only the essential/be graceful.  I am clumsy so that's another obstacle.  working on it.
3.  Timing:  Less time to do what need to be done.  This seems to be my achilles heel....  My natural tempo seem slower compare to most.  My zodic sign should be sloth.  
4.  Setup  ---  I need to spent some time on this...
My binding setup are still based on your recommendation(how long ago was that?...  i think after all these time some of the lesson are finally start to click.  Better late than never lol).  with some semi-blind hero worshipping settings throw in there.
My issue is I am not very receptive to micro adjustment;  if it work for someone; since I don't know any better it might work for me too.

5.   I believe you are refer to the the trap of being expert beginner: 
context:  https://daedtech.com/how-developers-stop-learning-rise-of-the-expert-beginner/

The only progress I can honest say I made is:
I can now tell what I did wrong in a post mortem context:  not enough/too much angulation, rotation, compression, timing is off, not center enough and so on and on.
How do I progress to the next level so I can be more dynamic and adjust on the fly is what I am working on.
Meaning:  I am making conscious effort on finesse aspect of carving instead just trying to hammer/grunt my way through everything.  

 

[daveo]

I'm all about grunt and no finesse. It's depressing.

[pow4ever]

18 minutes ago, daveo said:

I'm all about grunt and no finesse. It's depressing.

One thing I learn on this forum is that people are way too humble.  I am sure you do fine 
As long as you are having fun; grunt/hammer FTW.
I know that I won't be able to sustain the amount of physical abuse with my current way of riding for long.
Our body are wondrous machine; it will adopt but need to plan for the long term.

[JohnE]

On 1/15/2019 at 8:47 AM, JohnE said:

I always get that angle definition wrong. It seems more logical that zero degrees would be where the board axis and the boot axis align. 

So to correct my above statement: I find low angles to be much more stable (and relaxing) than high angles. 

You should come to Colorado where you can legally partake MJ for a really relaxing ride. 

I've never ridden a Skwal. However, it seems to me that extreme soft-boot carving would be a duck stance (never done this) and the extreme hard-boot stance would be on a Skwal. A duck stance should be very stable and a Skwal stance would be very unstable. Stability and being relaxed are not the same thing but I think they are related. 

[Beckmann AG]

2 hours ago, pow4ever said:

1.  T.O.M -- build up the muscle, experience.  You want to carve steep?  gotta ride more steep.  No amount of green/blue riding is going to help with ridding black.  Checked.

Not so fast, hot rod.  As you recall, the young Dr. M spent extensive time understanding and manipulating the analogs/workings of time itself. This sets the stage for his ability to manipulate the greater matter/energy system(s).

While your assumption makes sense at face value, if you move to the high energy context before you have the means to manipulate that context, you simply develop coping mechanisms based on what you know and what you have.

As the head of the Spartak tennis club once said " the worst thing you can do to a child is ask them to hit a ball with no technique, without first learning how to move." (or something to that effect).

The greater point of 'time on hill' is to have the opportunity to sift and evaluate, not just to practice what you know.

I've taken a lot of heat over the years from the 'smart people' for spending so much time riding slowly, on flat terrain. If you do it with focus, as Ingemar Stenmark used to on the runout of his training hill, you figure out which movements really matter at the micro level, and therefore how to most effectively manipulate the platform. If you cannot ride clean moving very slowly, without extra movements (see also, pedaling) odds are good you're going to have a problem further up the ladder.

As Lonbordin noted earlier, I'm reasonably capable on one foot (see also, no pedaling). Part of that is practice, but most of that is equipment configuration. If you can ride a variety of turns and inputs on one foot with a relaxed posture, you've at least established that the back foot won't be needed to compensate for board behaviour  once the context changes.  

There are any number of ways a rider can provide errant inputs to their board. Until you figure out what really matters, and what is merely ketchup/mustard, the board will have the capacity to ride you.

Your board does exactly what you tell it to. To that end, make sure you really understand which inputs matter, and which ones don't.  If it's not clear, ask. It's a very short list.

2 hours ago, pow4ever said:

How do I progress to the next level so I can be more dynamic and adjust on the fly is what I am working on.
Meaning:  I am making conscious effort on finesse aspect of carving instead just trying to hammer/grunt my way through everything. 

It may not work at all for you, but one of my pole stars is the goal of accomplishing almost everything by doing practically nothing. In terms of energy expressed, to meet this goal the board must be powered up, and the body powered down.

So if you're expending effort, and it's not improving things, you're going in the wrong direction.

Thanks for the links.

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Beckmann AG

[pow4ever]

yes sir.  I heard you loud and clear.  Thank you for taking the time!  I and many other appreciated it. 
Points taken and noted.  I find something in between works for me.
Most of the time; I am doing this by myself so it's difficult for me to tell which direction I am going
All I can go by is how "clean" the carve feel to me.  Energy expenditure is a good measurement; I will incorporate that into the repertoire.
It's funny; it was beat into me that if you are not working hard you are doing something wrong lol. 

Agree that we eeed that feedback loop -- it's an iterative process
Alternate between the "steep for me" and "comfort zone" trails.
Find deficiency on steep; work on it on easier trail.
I think i got it; go back to the steep -
   it work -- good, keep going until it's embed in muscle memory.  Write down finding.  commit "technique" and move on the steeper to see if still apply.
   it semi-work -- need more data points.  Is this a coping mechanism; might come in handy in emergency.  Any room for improvement? 
   it didn't work:  WTF... back to easy street.
 
What I do find certain things like timing is difficult for me to practice on easier trail.  Which is my major road block as my brain is just seem slower.

26 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

goal of accomplishing almost everything by doing practically nothing

What you described is post doc level math; I am still in kindergarten eating crayon lol.  There are gap in between and I don't know how to bridge them.
It's in a direction I believed I am working toward but I am lost most of the time (hopefully i will get there eventually with lots of detour, Hey Earth is round   but sometime that's the only way i learned)....