Is "relaxing" carving possible?

[SunSurfer]

Lots of ways to effectively set and ride the edge to carve a turn. You appreciated both the result and the aesthetic of another style. 

[AcousticBoarder]

Wow, this thread has a lot of good information in it, I wish there was a way to bookmark a thread. Some of these have put a lot into prospective for me. I can say I was an expert beginner for a bit and am now trying to work out of that and figure out how to relearn properly. I know what it looks like, but I have been having difficulty trying to figure out how to emulate that on my own. @Beckmann AG, it sounds like you are suggesting to take a comfortable, milder slope such as a green or easy blue and focus on eliminating inputs, and the key is to go slow. From my understanding, this should have the outcome of starting to develop the relaxed carving (which I too am after) as well as help to unlearn the bad habits I have developed to muscle memory over the years.

Additionally, start by focusing on the feet/ankles as initiating the input and let the COM follow. 

I hope to try this out next week! 

Edited February 2, 2019 by AcousticBoarder

[SunSurfer]

@AcousticBoarder I can vouch for the long term benefits of deliberate practice on gentle slopes.

[Corey]

Make it three.  Learn the basics where you're not scared/exhilarated.  

[Beckmann AG]

9 hours ago, AcousticBoarder said:

I know what it looks like, but I have been having difficulty trying to figure out how to emulate that on my own.

This can be part of the problem. Everyone will look somewhat differently at particular phases of rider development, and that appearance is affected by where the observer is standing with regard to the subject, and also how the subject regards the activity at hand.

I've said this before, but the obvious things you can see are generally not the things you want to emulate. The exception being a relaxed and comfortable stance if you're riding at a low output in a low energy context. 

Form usually follows function, not the other way around, and snowboarding is no exception. As in, if things are going well at the ground level, the rest of the picture will probably look fine.

If you're trying to refine things, you want to determine what the board will do for you if you're doing practically nothing other than standing there, and making very subtle movements with your feet and ankles. And whether or not your configuration will permit such movements in the first place.

So if you're on a gentle slope, the idea is to start off linking turns, starting with whatever turn size and shape is most accessible. Gradually work the ends of those turns such that you have more 'degrees of arc' on successive runs. Do this until you almost come to a stop at the end of each turn. If each transition feels  blocked or awkward in the absence of momentum, this indicates that your means of tilting the board, or your weight distribution from tip to tail are not quite 'there'.  Ideally, you should be able to glide out of one arc and on to the next without faltering. (Glide is important. Without glide, the engine isn't running, and you'll have to get out and push.)

Hopefully, the relaxed time frame will give you the opportunity to understand which movements create which sensations, and what those sensations mean in terms of board behaviour. Part of learning how to ride better is coming to terms with what you're actually doing, not just what you think you're doing.

When you can do this from an upright posture, gradually add articulation, either in terms of more/less knee flexion, or in terms of slight angulation. And then both, when you're feeling sporty.

Be aware that whatever you move in one direction for a given turn, you have to 'undo' in order to make the next. This will be a decent gauge of timing, and also whether or not additional movement is affecting your basic inputs of weight distribution from foot to foot, and also ability to roll from one edge to the next.

Sooner or later, you may notice that your turns are becoming tighter, and yet you're not falling over.

At this point, take what you've gained, and add a little more incline. 

Note that one of the points of working flat terrain is to make mistakes and explore what is and is not possible, not just to practice things with which you're comfortable.

Note as well that tipping over on flat terrain hurts more than on steep terrain. (You probably know this already, but it's worth repeating.)  

As a rider with ambition, you can take one of two spiral paths. One spiral winds outward, exposing you to increasing magnitude of challenge. The other spirals in, challenging you in smaller and smaller increments that seem at first indistinguishable. 

[slopestar]

JG told me to breathe. I had a nasty habit of sucking wind and holding it in through the apex of my turns. Letting it out has helped me tremendously over the years

Edited January 22, 2019 by slopestar

[daveo]

21 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

@AcousticBoarder I can vouch for the long term benefits of deliberate practice on gentle slopes.

This is something I'm going to focus on this season.

[AcousticBoarder]

14 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

So if you're on a gentle slope, the idea is to start off linking turns, starting with whatever turn size and shape is most accessible. Gradually work the ends of those turns such that you have more 'degrees of arc' on successive runs. Do this until you almost come to a stop at the end of each turn. If each transition feels  blocked or awkward in the absence of momentum, this indicates that your means of tilting the board, or your weight distribution from tip to tail are not quite 'there'.  Ideally, you should be able to glide out of one arc and on to the next without faltering. (Glide is important. Without glide, the engine isn't running, and you'll have to get out and push.)

And just to check I am understanding (I think its all clicking), this should be almost the norm, probably more of a relaxed posture though, and just using my feet to initiate, keeping the rest of the body still, though relaxed, not tense and rigid. This posture should have my shoulders square with the board? Should I be focusing on keeping my hips there too or should they follow (or is it vise versa?)

Subsequent steps would then be to slowly introduce more and less knee flexion and articulation (ie the "pencil pinch") to vary the angulation of the board.

[Corey]

I can't speak for Mr. Beckmann, but I believe you have it correct.  I like to do this on the runout of regular runs.  It seems the fun stuff frequently has long 'green' sections before or after it - may as well put these areas to good use!  Hold your jacket hem to stop the arm motions (if necessary), focus on the feet and how their movements/pressures affect your path. 

It's really interesting to take away the gross movements and appreciate how subtle changes can have seemingly big effects.  A big part of that is removing tension from the whole system.  Hard to do when learning, but worth the effort!  

[pow4ever]

The following are in jest of course:

 

[pow4ever]

On 1/21/2019 at 1:13 PM, AcousticBoarder said:

Wow, this thread has a lot of good information in it, I wish there was a way to bookmark a thread. Some of these have put a lot into prospective

Me 2.  Using this thread + my carving journal (just scraps of notes) really up my keyboard carving game lol.   
Have a trip coming up in Feb and hopefully I can put some of the "gold nuggets" into good use. 
It depends on where we are in our journey; I wasn't ready to received lots advice at the time.  It wasn't until much later the light bulb finally went off for me.
--------------------------------------
Thank you The good Doctor.  If I may regurgitate
The element of anticipation(one of my current many flaws/road block) is build on top of true understanding of movement input and board execution/output.
Be able to quantify input/output in an empirical(black/white) but perform it in a organically(flow) fashion is one of the key to good riding.
At this point I can appreciated/kinda understand some of the intricacy but to be able to perform consistently regardless of condition/trail is a "love/hate" relationship currently.

[Beckmann AG]

9 hours ago, AcousticBoarder said:

this should be almost the norm, probably more of a relaxed posture though, and just using my feet to initiate, keeping the rest of the body still, though relaxed, not tense and rigid. This posture should have my shoulders square with the board? Should I be focusing on keeping my hips there too or should they follow (or is it vise versa?)

Subsequent steps would then be to slowly introduce more and less knee flexion and articulation (ie the "pencil pinch") to vary the angulation of the board.

More or less. Rather than thinking of 'keeping the body still', aim to be fairly loose, and pay attention when things tighten up. Tension is generally a reaction to instability, so if you feel tension, that's a cue that some movement was out of proportion, early, late, missing etc.

As to baseline posture: Find a flat spot above the chosen slope, and just fully relax for a moment with both feet latched in.

Hopefully you're configured so as to be bearing weight more or less evenly on both feet, no tension in the quads, hips facing the angle of your front foot (plus minus a few degrees), shoulders facing same angle as your hips, one hand for each edge.

As you begin to move, note what changes, and see if you can figure out what and why.  If you're simply making lazy turns on the flats, you shouldn't have to deviate too far away from your established baseline, other than to alter the pressure distribution underfoot as fits the requirements of the where you are in the turn, and where you want to go.

It can be helpful to rotate yourself a little further forward for the sake of particular experiential tasks, but be aware that rotating beyond your baseline will often alter contact under your feet, often in subtle but important ways. E.g., quite often such rotation will move weight from the rear foot heel to the front foot, unless the rider in question finds a way to compensate somehow.

Additional leg flexion will facilitate angulation to some extent. Try to maintain a mostly upright torso, as this should help maintain a 'centered' relationship to the board, and keeping your head up and level should improve your spatial awareness as well as your balance in general.

 

8 hours ago, Corey said:

Hold your jacket hem to stop the arm motions (if necessary), focus on the feet and how their movements/pressures affect your path.

So far as hand/arm action, save the restrictions for a little later.

At this stage, start off with one hand over each edge, and note whether or not this situation changes (or is changed). For instance, if your heelside hand suddenly wants to be over the toeside edge as you begin a heelside turn, this means you've moved too much body mass to the heelside, and the hand/arm movement is a reflexive means of counterbalancing your error.

If you find you can't make a heelside turn without moving that hand to the toeside, that suggests your means of tilting the board to that side is essentially 'flawed', and should be reconfigured.

 

 

 

 

[Beckmann AG]

7 hours ago, pow4ever said:

The element of anticipation(one of my current many flaws/road block) is build on top of true understanding of movement input and board execution/output.

When you work toward, and then from cause and effect, rather than from proscribed postures, you eventually get to the point where what was once anticipation is simply 'look and do'.

I think it's been said that one of the first steps toward resolving a problem, is properly 'naming' that problem. So once you resolve cause and effect into familiar sensations and outcomes,  you have a secure foundation from which you can gradually move outward/forward.

As opposed to when your board skids, and you wonder if your hand was in the correct relation to your boot cuff, and you have no way of knowing.

7 hours ago, pow4ever said:

At this point I can appreciated/kinda understand some of the intricacy but to be able to perform consistently regardless of condition/trail is a "love/hate" relationship currently.

No doubt. I still get that from time to time, especially on particular trail sections. I think you'll find there will always be some sort of tension involved, but it will shift from the visceral/emotional, love/hate kind of thing, to something more meditative/cerebral.

Or maybe not. Either way, you'll find out.

 

Edited January 23, 2019 by Beckmann AG

[pow4ever]

20 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

No doubt. I still get that from time to time, especially on particular trail sections. I think you'll find there will always be some sort of tension involved, but it will shift from the visceral/emotional, love/hate kind of thing, to something more meditative/cerebral.

Nice!  I need some time on the mountain....

reading about carving -- i got this
taking lesson -- i think i got this
on real trail by myself --  i don't got this

[SunSurfer]

Maybe @pow4ever you need the chance to ride with some friends.

[Chouinard]

1 hour ago, pow4ever said:

reading about carving -- i got this
taking lesson -- i think i got this
on real trail by myself --  i don't got this

Cannot achieve goal ...[rotate or not, bomber or not, cross over or under, push and pull, Pure Carve, Pure Board, Euro Carve, ride the edge or tench out the pitch]... unless you define it. Most likely gonna do all especially when it comes time to save your ass.

Wash On, Wash Off. 

One change at a time. 

Do the old, try the new, redo the old and compare.

Keep what works and discard the rest.

What works for one may not work for another.

No shortcuts.

As speed and g-force increase, attention to detail must follow or you will pay the price. Get a good helmet.

What do I know anyway...been an expert beginner for years BUT this year I finally got my boards, bindings, and boots dialed in after four years of slogging thru the details on a 200' pitch cycling thru the lift four hours at a time.

A lot of good content in this forum but you got to get on a hill and put in the time.  Got to go out and do it!

Wash On, Wash Off. 

Muscle memory is a MEMORY of a previous action.

[Corey]

The hardest part is turning down the analytical brain. Technical folk are so busy analyzing everything that they can't get into a 'flow' state. That was definitely me! Have you read "The Inner Game Of Tennis" by Gallwey? Awesome book that's applicable to much of life. 

While I think the pseudoscience is well-intentioned made-up B.S., I like the practical lessons learned. I've used some of his techniques with students before to good success. 

That 'flow' state is freaking magic when you can achieve it. You're a third party, watching stuff happen and planning for the future. 

[BlueB]

12 minutes ago, Corey said:

Have you read "The Inner Game Of Tennis" by Gallwey? Awesome book that's applicable to much of life. 

Are you into tennis, Correy? I love it! 

[Corey]

30 minutes ago, BlueB said:

Are you into tennis, Correy? I love it! 

Not at all. I can see the allure, but it doesn't excite me.

That book comes highly recommended in car racing circles. 

[BlueB]

54 minutes ago, Corey said:

That book comes highly recommended in car racing circles. 

That's very interesting. 

[Beckmann AG]

2 hours ago, Chouinard said:

Muscle memory is a MEMORY of a previous action.

As regards 'technique' and memory, recall the expression that 'if you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything'. 

 If a break from activity causes regression, it's  probably because the favored sequence of movements is a little too complex/contrived, and the brain thing doesn't care for the upkeep.

On the other hand, if summer comes and goes with no more effect on your performance than a long chairlift ride, then you're probably on to something.

(You may have already done this at some point, but) for additional insight into how 'we' acquire and then utilize novel movements, commit to memory a compelling piece of verse of at least 54 lines in length, or long enough that you have to work in sections.

You might enjoy the process, and depending on how you go about it, might find that same process useful for other applications.

Once you 'know' the piece, you'll likely find it has different meaning than when you simply read it. And you'll spool it off without thinking, almost like you're observing the recitation, rather than being the actual voice. The words will simply 'be' there, as though they were there all along.

 From there, you can change the pace, change the voice, the emphasis, tone, etc, from the inside looking out, rather than the outside looking in.

A thing I don't care for as regards muscle memory, is that it presumes a set experience can be replicated ad nauseum to the same positive outcome experienced in the past. The problem with that, is the 'correct' sequence of movements will almost always be unique to the moment and circumstance. Similar in some ways to previous experience, yet still different.

Like if you have a key to a lock, you can open that lock. Whereas if you understand how locks work, you can open many locks without a proper key.

I suspect the notion also leads people to dutifully practice only what they know, rather than what they don't.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2019 by Beckmann AG

[Beckmann AG]

4 hours ago, pow4ever said:

reading about carving -- i got this
taking lesson -- i think i got this
on real trail by myself --  i don't got this

Seriously, memoir.

[pow4ever]

8 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

If a break from activity causes regression, it's  probably because the favored sequence of movements is a little too complex/contrived, and the brain thing doesn't care for the upkeep.

On the other hand, if summer comes and goes with no more effect on your performance than a long chairlift ride, then you're probably on to something.

Wow; amazing.  I never thought about it like that.  That's me to a T.  It seems to take me longer than most to just get back to the year before!  Great stuff.

11 hours ago, Corey said:

The hardest part is turning down the analytical brain. Technical folk are so busy analyzing everything that they can't get into a 'flow' state. That was definitely me! Have you read "The Inner Game Of Tennis" by Gallwey? Awesome book that's applicable to much of life. 

While I think the pseudoscience is well-intentioned made-up B.S., I like the practical lessons learned. I've used some of his techniques with students before to good success. 

That 'flow' state is freaking magic when you can achieve it. You're a third party, watching stuff happen and planning for the future. 

Thank you Corey!  Will check out the book for sure.
If we don't over analyze; how can we justify for all the new gears/spending 

"That 'flow' state is freaking magic when you can achieve it. You're a third party, watching stuff happen and planning for the future. "

That's a great way to sum up the crux of the matter.  I have taste the flow state on rare occasion.  Now I want more of it but it rarely show up when called upon.

11 hours ago, Chouinard said:

been an expert beginner for years BUT this year I finally got my boards, bindings, and boots dialed in after four years of slogging thru the details on a 200' pitch cycling thru the lift four hours at a time.

A lot of good content in this forum but you got to get on a hill and put in the time.  Got to go out and do it!

LOL!  200' FTW.  
"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."
This forum got some serious talent; most are just too humble.  I am sure you do just fine and appreciated the tips!

12 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

Maybe @pow4ever you need the chance to ride with some friends.

Ha!  Where is that thread about carving being a loner's sport?
I love riding with other.  Always something to learn, someone to push me beyond my comfort zone. 

[b0ardski]

8 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

A thing I don't care for as regards muscle memory, is that it presumes a set experience can be replicated ad nauseum to the same positive outcome experienced in the past. The problem with that, is the 'correct' sequence of movements will almost always be unique to the moment and circumstance. Similar in some ways to previous experience, yet still different.

Like if you have a key to a lock, you can open that lock. Whereas if you understand how locks work, you can open many locks without a proper key.

that's gold

the gear is your lock picks, you still have to get comfortable with them, even when you study how the mechanism works.

then comes a flow state

Edited January 24, 2019 by b0ardski

[Chouinard]

2 hours ago, pow4ever said:

LOL!  200' FTW.  
"I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times."

4 Seasons

15 sessions a season

4 hrs per session

12 cycles/hr

200 ft vertical per cycle

576,000 ft total vertical drop