1xsculler Posted March 21, 2018 Report Share Posted March 21, 2018 It seems like it takes a lot more strength and endurance as you progress in making tighter and better turns. You're thoughts. I guess it does make perfect sense as this is certainly true in skiing. The fact that I'm more wasted after two hours of trying to carve than I used to be must be a sign of progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eboot Posted March 21, 2018 Report Share Posted March 21, 2018 16 runs later this morning I could not agree with you more. First time ever that I have appreciated the slow ride to the top. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted March 21, 2018 Report Share Posted March 21, 2018 I guess you know the answer to that one, which is "no". It's all technique, but it usually takes a day or three to get into the groove each season. That's what Ibuoprofen and muscle relaxant (beer) are for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted March 21, 2018 Report Share Posted March 21, 2018 I had waves. Once I got a bit better, I could put more energy into carving productively, so I got tired faster. Then I learned to be more efficient and could ride longer. Then I poured more energy in. And etc. in a never-ending loop. Now it changes with snow conditions and my mood. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottishsurfer Posted March 21, 2018 Report Share Posted March 21, 2018 Depends on the turns i'm doing and style of riding if i'm turning tight hard and fast having to fight increased G force I'm going to be significantly more tired than if i'm doing big sweeping turns. On a mountain i tend to mix it up and vary what i'm doing, riding on the indoor slope its generally tight turns all the time just to get as many as possible before i reach the bottom of the short slope. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carvin' Marvin Posted March 21, 2018 Report Share Posted March 21, 2018 For me I say yes. I don't like my riding to stagnate so for me getting better means pushing it harder which means wrecking more and putting more physical strain on my body. If I went out and did easy candy ribbon turns all day it wouldn't hurt so bad, but I'm on the hill to push it baby. I usually leave the hill after 2 hours on a typical day so I still have energy to be productive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyt. Posted March 21, 2018 Report Share Posted March 21, 2018 It takes couple of runs to get that muscle memory going. Now that you are starting to feel some good carves and getting looser and lower. But if you keep the hammer down for too many runs, then you start to get tighter, and then the good carves go away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Blanz Posted March 21, 2018 Report Share Posted March 21, 2018 I've found going to a softer board makes the difference. 6 days at the session charging had all day with a stock Proteus (built for 180lb rider) and my 150lb weight left me barely able to walk down stairs on day 6. But last week I pushed every turn for 7 days in a row in Colorado with a Proteus built for 150lbs and had very little leg damage on day 7..in fact I had no issues on high speed carves at Vail on Saturday..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Kirk Posted March 21, 2018 Report Share Posted March 21, 2018 American cyclist and Tour de France winner Greg Lemond once said - "it never gets any easier you just go faster" and I find something similar on snow. The better I get the and the fitter I am the more I explore my new expanded limits. So I'm riding better and longer and going deeper and harder and it hurts just as much. dave 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chouinard Posted March 21, 2018 Report Share Posted March 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Mike Blanz said: I've found going to a softer board makes the difference. You need to load the board to bend it. If a board is too stiff then YOU need to push the deflection by using a greater entry speed and then maintain the energy level by storing it in the bent board thru the carve only to release it at the exit. The cyclic loading on your legs takes a toll. I have two boards one on the stiff side of my weight and one on the soft side of my weight. There is a significant difference to me when I ride with the same inputs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryj Posted March 21, 2018 Report Share Posted March 21, 2018 2 hours ago, Mike Blanz said: I pushed every turn for 7 days in a row in Colorado with a Proteus built for 150lbs and had very little leg damage on day 7..in fact I had no issues on high speed carves at Vail on Saturday..... Ditto there Mike! With a board made for my 225lb. I only last a couple of hours........ but on my new Coiler EC SS 177, 14-17scr Bruce took it down 2 weight ranges and set it at 180lbs. We call it the SS - Super Soft and I love it! I ride half day, no breaks, not even any breaks on the trail even......no problem! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carvedog Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 I started hard booting in '93 and it seems as though I have gotten better. I used to carve until my legs gave out and would stop there on the side of the run gasping like a fish out of water. Learning to breathe properly thru the carved turn has been a major element to not getting gassed and 'torn up'. I did three laps on Warm Springs yesterday (3,100 vertical feet of carving perfection) in 50 minutes. 10 minute ride up and I had to wait a couple of minutes here or there for the random skiers to clear the run. That was after a morning of carving all over the other side. And I could have done more. Not bragging about being in shape or anything, but perfect snow with decent technique and no one around can make you feel like a God. Less than perfect snow, a few recovery moves and having to ride a different arc than the board wants to not hit skiers makes a carver more tired. That was on a Sims Burner 197 so not exactly a mellow ride but it does love the speeds. For almost being April it is so good right now. North faces still winter snow and sun exposed faces turning to perfect corn..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1xsculler Posted March 28, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 Baldy, top to bottom on Warm Springs three times in fifty minutes on a 197 after burning the other side up during the morning, you should be bragging. My quads are feeling weak just thinking about that. How many regular carvers do you have over there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carvedog Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 Just a few. Maybe five or six out on hard boots on a good day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1xsculler Posted March 28, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 (edited) I've always thought the Warm Springs run would be awesome for a carver much further along than I am but on a 197? It's a nice bowl shaped run in the top 2/3rds but it's pertty narrow and I'd want a very turny, shorter board IF I would have any hope of linking a few turns in succession. At any rate I would love to watch you do it. It seems to me that there's awesome carving all over Baldy, since they groom so well, IF one is good at speed control. Five or six is five or six times more than I see all season at Crystal. In addition, going back forever, Limelight, top to bottom with 10" of new over groom, is still my favorite pure fall line ski run on the planet. Baldy is magic. Edited March 28, 2018 by 1xsculler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted March 28, 2018 Report Share Posted March 28, 2018 Warm Springs is the best carving run I have seen. Thanks for showing it to us years ago Carvedog! Sounds like all the replacement parts are doing well! 1xsculler, as the responses in this thread show, the answer to your question varies. In general, on days I made a noticeable improvement in my riding, it was physically more demanding and I could ride for a shorter time that day. As that improvement sunk in over the next carving days, it required less effort to carve at the new level and the physical requirements became easier. Improvements aside, some days you want to hammer and some days you want to cruise, many days are in between. There is hours of difference in how long I can last between riding hard and cruising. Even beyond that, some days require more effort (fast snow or chopped snow) than others (slightly slower hero groom). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted March 30, 2018 Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 On 3/21/2018 at 12:39 PM, 1xsculler said: It seems like it takes a lot more strength and endurance as you progress in making tighter and better turns. You're thoughts. I guess it does make perfect sense as this is certainly true in skiing. The fact that I'm more wasted after two hours of trying to carve than I used to be must be a sign of progress. It seems that way because that is your reality, and you haven't yet experienced the alternative. It is most certainly not true of skiing, at least not if one skis with proficiency. As a general rule, if you are obtaining a greater output with the same or less effort, you are moving in the 'right' direction. If you are obtaining the same or similar output with greater effort, you are going in the 'wrong' direction. (Exclusive of the concentration and focus required to learn 'new' movements and to 'overwrite' old habits.) When learning to ski or ride, initially the rider is 'charged' with muscular output, and the board is essentially 'dead'. As the rider develops skill (over time), this relationship gradually inverts, such that the rider can expend significantly less effort, while the board gradually 'powers up', to the extent that the board eventually does most, if not all of the 'work'. Unless one insists on doing things the hard way. And then you employ this kind of device: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Buggs Posted March 30, 2018 Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 This totally does happen, once you start feeling the Gs and your carves get more connected you want more and push for more. One of my big mistakes is charging too hard early in the day and using up the gas tank by noon. 18th season of plus 50 degree angles and I still make the same mistake, but I love it Lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted March 30, 2018 Report Share Posted March 30, 2018 Well. Check the demographics thread. The thing is, the reason it's possible for old guys to still do this is because... it's all technique. I can ride harder and faster than ever, but I don't need to check to know that my performance in other sports has definitely deteriorated. That's kind of why I picked sports where you need skill more than "training". The trick then is to "keep ahead of the curve" - you have to make sure that the rate at which you improve exceeds the rate at which your body deteriorates over time, and then all is good. When the two lines eventually cross, and they will, then you probably give up the sport in disgust. Well that's my algorithm. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chouinard Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 2 hours ago, philw said: ... it's all technique. Can you provide a brief description of your technique? Is it the same for all boards and conditions or does it change depending on any number of factors such as: pitch, board type, surface condition, etc.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 It's much more technique (cunning, & wisdom, the characteristics of experience) than physical strength & speed of motion (the characteristics of youth). A board torsionally stiff enough to adequately resist twisting uncontrollably beyond the bindings is an essential. Carving a turn can be a very efficient way of making a turn when you know how. Efficient in the sense of minimal energy input and maximum result. The technique needs to be yours, attuned to your physique and kinaesthetic senses, and your preferred stance distance and binding angles. The actions at the edge of the board are very simple to understand, more difficult to put into practice. Freecarving, there isn't time to think about the technique, the carve must be felt and your muscles need to automatically track that "feel". The "green" practice slope is the place for thinking about multiple aspects of technique and learning what a carved turn feels like. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 5 hours ago, Chouinard said: Can you provide a brief description of your technique? Is it the same for all boards and conditions or does it change depending on any number of factors such as: pitch, board type, surface condition, etc.? No. You may be missing my point, which isn't to boast, it's to answer the question by pointing out that brute strength/ fitness/ whatever is no substitute for actually learning to ride. That's true for any sport I've ever done. If you look at people who are good at riding, then you can see what you need to do. The catch is that you have to work out what is cause and what is effect, which is sufficiently subtle that many instructors and even teaching systems struggle with it. You can teach yourself - that's what the old guys had to do, or ride with someone who can help. But mostly you just need to put the time in. I don't think basic technique, for me at least, does change, although you obviously have to adjust how you ride to the snow conditions. It's all the same thing, in my opinion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softbootsurfer Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 Relax...easy to say, but harder to do...doing thousands of Carves has kept me young and moving forward, both mentally and physically 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted March 31, 2018 Report Share Posted March 31, 2018 (edited) your technique will settle into greater efficiency with time/practice, enhancing strength application against g-forces; still excursion but more balanced with less strain on the body. I lost 20# this season in 50 or so days of riding with a well honed efficient technique Edited March 31, 2018 by b0ardski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted April 1, 2018 Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 Depends on the snow, for me... firm and smooth, 40k vertical and I'm good to go the next day. Uneven and either icy or squishy and 15K vertical can do me in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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