Buell Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Softbootsailor - As Snowman mentioned earlier, I think many of us will agree that YOU are not the driving force behind the negative light shed on softbooters on this forum. I (personally) would be disappointed to see you sign off permanently. One more who agrees with this post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 A sub forum is not segregation or exclusion, it's accommodation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapster Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Haven't read all the posts (both because I don't have enough time AND the issue really draws just a "meh" response from me.) Though I agree, its interesting to see what gets people's dander up. So, pardon if I'm repeating other's ideas: First, if this truly is a hardboot carving site, lets make it official and explicit somewhere on the homepage--since I think most would agree that "carving" isn't limited to hardboots, why lead people on and possibly confuse them regarding what Bomber is all about? I think Bomber has become a defacto home for hardbooters, and that's fine with me. Lets just be clear about it. Second, how about a beginner's area/forum where carving with softies can be discussed as part of a progression into hardbooting. (I know its not a linear thing, but treating it that way seems most amenable to the folks who visit this site.) I only make this second suggestion due to my desire for more people to enter the sport, and many of those will likely enter via softboots. Third, just a note on how squishy this whole discussion can become--are the boards we ride as important as the boots? Do folks who ride plates on freeride equipment fit here? What about on powder boards? Do BX'ers fit in on the race forum? They're snowboard racers, after all. All mountain boards are also often seperated out from "carve specific" boards. So why are they fit to discuss here? Just because they can carve? Murky stuff. I guess that last point is why I'm rather ambivalent. I want to see hardboot carving survive and grow--and Bomber is one of its premier sources of energy. At the same time, its fun to play in all the gray areas of life. And there are few places where you can do that in the world anymore. Should we be so tribal? Maybe that's the only way to survive... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 A sub forum is not segregation or exclusion, it's accommodation. +1 we are kidding ourselves if we think the hardbooters are going to stay on the hardboot side and the softbooters are going to stay on the softboot side. True, but errant posts could be moved. Cross-over trolling/flaming could be declared a bannable (banable? ban-able?) offense. I think a softboot forum would be a good idea because there are a significant number of us who still ride softies. I would if I could justify the expense for the few days a year I would need them. It would be helpful to be able to discuss softbooting with like-minded snowboarders who also hardboot, instead of having to go wade through some unfamiliar softbooter forum crowded with people who have never experienced the way we like to ride. Second, how about a beginner's area/forum where carving with softies can be discussed as part of a progression into hardbooting. Helping people get started with hardboots has always been one of the primary missions of the Carving Community forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 One more who agrees with this post. ditto that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slopestar Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Currently, the "yays" have it. I do both, I love both, show me a softbooter forum that has anything to do with carving. I left my baggies and ducked stance back in 91' Got my first PJ and Innercourse. Hello rail! Segregate the masses that already agree to a sub forum and make everyone happy. I get to enjoy the best of both worlds in one great place and the the purists can remain snobs. Bomber is a hardboot site There is no contesting that, but the road to hardboot heaven is paved with softboot soles! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carvedog Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 One more who agrees with this post. +3.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
two_ravens Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Softbootsailor - As Snowman mentioned earlier, I think many of us will agree that YOU are not the driving force behind the negative light shed on softbooters on this forum. I (personally) would be disappointed to see you sign off permanently. Softbootsailor, I too would be very sad to see you go. You are a huge asset to this forum and the carving community. I'm sure you don't remember me, but during my first few days at SES 08 when I was brand new to hardbooting, you went out of your way to stop by and offer encouragement to a very lonely, discouraged new carver. You suggested some other runs that might be better suited to my level of (in)ability and just generally cheered me up, then left some beautiful tracks for me to try to emulate. Your kindness and thoughtfulness where absolutely one of the highlights of my trip. I really hope you can shake off the spiteful attacks from thoughtless, immature people, and continue to offer your contributions here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 This discussion is becoming too much like our politics: People on either extreme are challenging those who appreciate both to choose a side. Very sad. Reading the posts you can see that there are offenders at both ends. When I first dipped my toe into hardbooting (coming from skiing/softbooting) an experienced & long-term hardbooter saw that I was on an alpine board and offered his help. Why should I exclude others once I've been welcomed in? This is primarily a hardboot forum but one is not superior to the other - just different. It's all about having fun. The growth in this sport comes mostly from skiers/softbooters. It is in Fin's interest to welcome these riders and not force them to "choose a side". Some threads in the general forum that have just opened since this one started have softboot content in them. Should they be warned or deleted? "Can't we all just get along?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sic t 2 Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Its all about the carving. yeah right. meanwhile the mother of all off-topic posts is being played out with a master internet fisherman at the helm: http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=29987 How can everyone be so dumb? Doesn't carving matter? Is this place turning into a shoe store? do whatever. do it fast. Sic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobD Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 I think a softboot forum would be a good idea because there are a significant number of us who still ride softies. I would if I could justify the expense for the few days a year I would need them. It would be helpful to be able to discuss softbooting with like-minded snowboarders who also hardboot, instead of having to go wade through some unfamiliar softbooter forum crowded with people who have never experienced the way we like to ride. I totally agree. People on this forum understand carving, it's technicalities, the myriad variations of style, but most importantly, it's ethos. We can cross bench ideas from hard to soft boots. You won't find that on a general snowboard forum, or for that matter a ski forum. Talk about catching air on transitions while ski carving, on a ski forum, and you will get comments of "it's a good drill, but a bad way to ski". Whereas here, we understand the fun of landing on the new edges whatever you are on. Likewise anyone running a forward stance in softboots will get equally unhelpful comments on a general snowboard forum. I think there should definitely be a place for soft boot carving within the Bomber Forums. BobD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeho730 Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Bomber is a hardboot site There is no contesting that, but the road to hardboot heaven is paved with softboot soles! In a way, I agree. I believe majority of the new recruits will probably come from softbooters, especially those that visit this forum. They are at least aware of hardboot carving. Those new recruits are needed because we, as a human being, will die at some stage. Fin, Mr Martin, Mr Varsava, Mr Prior will not live forever either. The only means of survival for this community is not only to maintain the numbers but also increase it so that there will still be some people willing to do business with us in the next 50 years or so. What is essential is a clever strategy, like the Swoard's community's Dual for example, to convert softboot carvers in this forum to hardbooters at least . Even if it fails, at least those softboot carvers are aware of hardboot carving and can introduce other potential recruits into this community by word of mouth. In my opinion, telling them to go somewhere else because this is hardboot forum is not productive long term as it is more likely to drive those potential recruits away. None of us will live forever. Every community will need new blood to survive and I, for one, hate to see our beloved fade into history. So let's create the subforum for the softbooters, be friendly to them and then slowly infect them with our addiction to hardbooting. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowman Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 In my opinion, telling them to go somewhere else because this is hardboot forum is not productive long term as it is more likely to drive those potential recruits away. ;) Nobody is telling anyone to go somewhere else. What is beeing so eloquently said is: this is a website the was origionally started to give people who ride hardboots a venue to discuss all things hardboot. If you are coming to be part of this site, acknowledge this very basic and evident premise. Hardbooting is what we talk about, do, buy and sell, manufacturer, race, ride powder on, ect, ect. If you gonna cry in your soup about us (the Hardboot Taliban)don't. This thread has gone very awry. People are getting offended and upset, and the powers of keen grasp of the obvious are not being used. Don't let Bomberonline loose its orgional heart and soul. Think Snow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carvedog Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 It's not just a couple of softbooters. It's the "this site is all about carving yada yada yada now feck off all you softbooters" hypocrisy. "Pushing the softboot agenda"? Bollocks.Fin, please delete my account. Hey tufty, just cuz everyone else is taking turns pissing on each other doesn't mean you have to? I for one really enjoyed the tour of your mtn - Commute to Work - I think it was on vimeotube or some such and would hate to have you leave. Like water off a ducks back brother. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoom Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 As many people have noted, there is a lot of noise and negativity in this thread. However, there are some very good, thoughtful posts, and I thought it might be nice to focus on those points. I edited for space, but there are plenty more.... I voted yes, for many of the reasons mentioned below, but I can see why some others voted no, which is why I included comments from either side. Hoping that we can hit the re-set button, and that the carvers who are about ready to delete BOL from their favorites will remember that there are a lot of welcoming, respectful, if less vociferous, members who would hate to see them go. This season we have seen a large interest from carvers who use softboot gear to get'r done. Honestly, I think this is a great thing to see as I believe we all agree you can do an amazing amount of carving on a softboot set-up. I actually think it would be great to have a soft-boot forum...where softbooters can discuss various gear and techniques specific to softboot carving. "This is the mother of all carve/hardboot/alpine snowboarding discussions"-Fin This is the origional "mission statement" if you will. Its what Bomber is and was about from its inception. Take the hard line and stay true to the origional course. Softy riders have a plethora of sites that are and always will be for "softies". Just thinking that soft boot carving is definitely the entry to hardboot carving. If you get enough people in here talking about soft boot carving they are going to eventually try hardbooting... It's not about being exclusive, it's about being inclusive and inviting more people to try out the sport. I no longer think of myself as an alpine snowboarder, but more as a carver period. Whether it's on skis, in hard boots, or soft boots. I think there is an understanding of carving as end, rather than a means to an end in this community, that skiers, and regular snowboarders don't quite get. I really like the posse that Jorge put's together for his trips. It's all about carving, never mind what is used to do it. I voted yes, thought I agree with Tom, and he voted no :) Between... the increasing number of softboot carvers, and the fact that many of us hardbooters love to ride softies sometimes it makes a ton of sense to separate softboot and hardboot discussions. They are different. i think a separate softboot forum would be great. good carving is good carving and eventually everyone (softbooter, shaped skier, telemarker (they have had plastic telemark boots for years now) and alpine hardbooter converges upon the same carving techniques. i haven’t been a bomberonline member for that long but i think the member who best embodies the carving spirit ironically wears softboots—i look forward to reading more interesting, entertaining and thought provoking posts from well respected bomberonline member SOFTBOOTSAILER. a separate softboot forum would probably increase the number of his posts and that in my opinion would be a GOOD thing. I voted yes but think we need to include or Softboot friends. Many visit this site because they like carving. Sometimes they offer a unique perspective which can be a good thing. We should also remember that most of us started out on softies and transitioned over to hard boots. Letting the softbooters participate here will only help our sport. Plus... Softbootsailor has posted some interesting threads and is stoked on carving. There are others like him that provide good info and energy here. Let's keep them coming to this site and provide an area specific to softboots. I'm a soft booter (knuckledragginparkmonkey) who races, so I'm always interested in anything carve related. I've followed bomberonline discussions for years hopin that someday I can afford to go to hards. Keep bomber pure! It's a hard booter site! There are other sites for softies. There are so many highly educated members here that I learn alot from the threads. Last year at SES I was admiring a carver coming down under the lift. I assumed that he was a hardbooter. When he got closer, I realized that he was in soft boots. I later rode the lift with him and he had the passion for carving as much as I did. If "separate forum" means collecting soft boot carving threads into their own sub-forum, that may be a good way of sorting information. If it is a form of Apartheid, let's not. Again - let's be inclusive - not exclusive. What I appreciate about this forum is that there are a lot of members who think about snowboarding. Though I have not done an exhaustive search, I've not found another forum where riders think about riding. Most other snowboard sites are big on attitude & short on information. I consider myself an avid boarder - both soft & hard boots. This is the best forum I have found that has members like me. I am gravitating away from hard boots for a variety of reasons but that doesnt mean you will ever find me in a park airborne and upside down. I ride better than I ever have on catek fr2's and a coiler x3. It just fits me and my physique/style the best. It is also very versatile in any conditions. I would love to have a forum to talk about soft carving. besides being a crossover area for jibbers its a subniche of our sport that isnt going away. Yes, we can embrace them which is why I voted yes. But that doesn't mean we need to talk about softboot stuff on the hard boot forum. Make another forum for soft booters. The hard boot forum should be about hard boot stuff... narrow boards, plastic boots, BTS, plate bindings... all those things are what we should be discussing. Hard booting is such a niche sport and is hard to learn about. Things like stance and cants and all the things that are particular to hard booting are what we should be limiting our discussion to. That's why some threads get moved to Off Topic, because they are not relevant to a discussion of hard booting. I had a few minutes to waist and keep myself entertained so I looked at the quivers of everyone who posted on this thread (including Fin) I am sure that different people will draw different conclusion but regardless of how you feel or what you think here is the reality Out of 46 different members who posted on this thread so far at post # 120 3 have nothing posted in their quiver 3 have softboots only in their quiver 20 have harbdoots only in their quiver 20 have hardboots and softboots in their quiver Nobody hates you because you ride softboots (ok, maybe 5 people do). For the record, I voted "yes" not to segregate the jibbers into a ghetto, but because carving in softboots is fun, but is different from hardbooting. As far as I can tell there are no softboot snowboarding forums with any useful information... or that are even comprehensible to people capable of rational thought. It would be nice to have a softboot forum here which had the same kind of level of expertise and community, etc.. reading again the first few pages and then the last few that I missed out on last nite, I notice that the two sides arguing arent even divided evenly by yes or no votes. some of you are pissed that softboots are getting relegated to the corner, some of you are elated that softboot carving is finally being given its own place. The other side is split in a similiar fashion. I used to think softboot carving belonged in the main forum, but it would just be easier on everyone to have ALL softboot content in one sub-forum. Fin? Let's do it. Most every carver I know has full respect for other carvers on any type of snow sliding equipment. There is actually very little anti-softboot rhetoric and nothing about what hardboot gear one rides. I never considered that BOL was anything but a hardboot site where discussion about softboots sometimes occurs. I consider a softboot forum a significant step up from the Off Topic forum. I just met a ripping softy carver today, duck stance and it did not matter which way he was facing, he carved. We are all after the same feeling. I bet this is how even our two exceptions would act on the hill (probably ;)). Seeing how much drama this poll alone has created, I think adding a whole separate area for softbooters is going to promote more softbooters on the forum in general and therefore more drama - not give them a place to bicker on their own. Inclusion is a great thing, but we have to remember it isn't like these people have no where else to go to discuss. This is a hardboot forum, and while I'm all for those of you who can carve in softies - this is still a hardboot forum. We don't ask to get special areas to discuss our niche area of the sport on TGR and other forums, so I don't think asking to keep this as a place for those of us who love to carve in hardboots is too much to ask. Part of the reason I love carving so much is because of the small community and closeness that comes from a smaller (in comparison) group of people who take part in the sport. A softbooter who has interest in hardbooting or in the freeride boards offered by primarily alpine board makers is one thing, but I would hate to see our sense of community and pride be watered down by creating an outlet for additional controversy and discussions that take away from the main point of why we are all here. I think a softboot forum would be a good idea because there are a significant number of us who still ride softies. I would if I could justify the expense for the few days a year I would need them. It would be helpful to be able to discuss softbooting with like-minded snowboarders who also hardboot, instead of having to go wade through some unfamiliar softbooter forum crowded with people who have never experienced the way we like to ride. Softbootsailor, I too would be very sad to see you go. You are a huge asset to this forum and the carving community. I'm sure you don't remember me, but during my first few days at SES 08 when I was brand new to hardbooting, you went out of your way to stop by and offer encouragement to a very lonely, discouraged new carver. You suggested some other runs that might be better suited to my level of (in)ability and just generally cheered me up, then left some beautiful tracks for me to try to emulate. Your kindness and thoughtfulness where absolutely one of the highlights of my trip. I really hope you can shake off the spiteful attacks from thoughtless, immature people, and continue to offer your contributions here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeho730 Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Snowman, Er...if you have read my previous posts, you'll notice my statement that I ride primarily on hardboots. You know, got TDs (got SW recently), cateks, 4 alpine boards etc etc. But it seems like I'm suddenly on softbooter's side, not one of "you" What I am trying to say is that allowing a softboot carvers their own forum can be a good idea to introduce more people into hardbooting long term. With such forum here, we should be able to guide them, discuss carving techniques and gently introduce them the idea of hardbooting. All the products they need to buy are here at Bomber, we just need more persuasion to get them on the feet. And that means more sale for Bomber and our community can grow stronger and ensure long term survival. I want Bomber to remain Bomber as well, but such thing cannot last forever. At least we need some new members, preferably young, so that even if we retire from snwoboarding the community will continue. I mean, Snowman, realistically It's impossible for Bomber to remain Bomber forever. Fin is not going to make bindings forever, many of estimeed riders such as Mr Jack Michaud or youself will not be able to practice alpine snowboarding forever either. At some stage, we need to realise the eventuality that someday Bomber bindings will be made by someone other than Fin, Coiler as a brand may cease to exist unless Mr Varsava trains an apprentice to replace him one day etc. It's long term survival of this community, and hardbooting in general, that I believe we should aim, and although I can sympathetize with your idea (I also want Bomber to be Bomber, a small closely knit hardboot carving community), but you need to accept the idea that Bomber 20 years later may become a different community compared to today's one. Do you belive that we will still have same members 20 years later? We need new blood, and I see majority of those potential recruits from softboot carvers. Let's welcome them, let's not say things like "if you want to talk about soft boot and strap bindings, go else where." But then again, it's just that we have different opinions. Nothing more. It seems like softboot carving forum will be made so hopefully this will benefit our community long term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heroshmero Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 It's nice to see this discussion coming around to something reasonable and positive. Quite a change from the spit and fire from a few days ago. I've chimed in on this discussion because being fairly new to hard booting I have found this site and community to be a very valuable resource for me. It has allowed me to learn about technique, equipment and style that I would have had a hard time finding out about otherwise. Long live Bomber! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskan Rover Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Wonderful post, ZOOM!!! I see that you've spent some time and effort to "mine" the good parts of BOTH sides of a thread that was becoming fairly abrasive (I tossed some fuel on that fire, also, I admit). That type of diplomacy is what is needed...and highlights the fact that grace and gentility of manner are important ingredients of any discourse. Thus, I commend you, sir! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 hmmm, their are also a few on the other side of the arguement that could stand to relax just a bit and see that they share some fault.if a separte forum were here, those threads would be separated from All the hardboot forums. OR, perhaps everyone should grow a set and continue to see them pop up all over the site while moderators play wack-a-mole... agreed, this is traditionally one of the few sandboxes catering to hardboots hence some ribbing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 5 days in and 10 pages of input wow! any chance of speeding this along an moving on to the new "Plate Forum" for hard booters only. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Petrol Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Softbootsailor - As ..... mentioned earlier, I think many of us will agree that YOU are not the driving force behind the negative light shed on softbooters on this forum. I (personally) would be disappointed to see you sign off permanently. ah, you could stick around and be Bomer's "Token" softbooter I hope I'm not just adding to the noise but Sorry folks, how can y'all demand all who dare enjoy carving in comfy boots, or those who have not yet dropped ten loads of cabbage on a 'proper' hardboot setup be banished or STFU, and expect to not offend the few softbooters you previously tolorated This whole anti-softboot thing is really being taken FAR to seriously Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Responses to a softboot question at TGR! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 This whole anti-softboot thing is really being taken FAR to seriously This idea has been taken too far itself. Very little of this thread is anti-softboot. Most of it is saying that BOL is a hardboot carving forum. Almost no one here wants anyone to go away because they ride softboots, but they are expected to recognize that they are posting in a hardboot forum. We certainly both share the carving experience. Can someone please start quoting the people who want to get rid of softbooters or tell them to "STFU" on BOL so we can have some evidence? I am sure a couple can be found, but this is a long thread with lots of posters. Again, many of us are also softbooters and have an interest in softboot discussions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael.a Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 a resounding NO, NIE, NIECHT, NIEN, NON, NI I ride softboots and this is the last place I want to read about em. The LAST place, dont take that away from me!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John E Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 Can someone please start quoting the people who want to get rid of softbooters or tell them to "STFU" on BOL so we can have some evidence? I am sure a couple can be found, but this is a long thread with lots of posters. Read posts #82, #93, #125, #146, #187 and then tell me why someone like SoftbootSailer decides to sign off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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