Should we offer a Sub-Forum for Softboot Carving?

[Buell]

Thanks John.

You have listed 3 post by Snowman (certainly there are quite a few more) which fits my request and 1 by Cuban Carving Gooding. The other one by Snowman is simply saying that he does not like softboots but says nothing about softbooters. You can find some anti-softboot rhetoric from Dano as well. Overall though, not many people. Snowman is the most obvious and vocal. We all know that and even he writes that no one needs to go anywhere a couple of times in his many posts.

Again, the reality is that very few people here have advocated ridding BOL of softbooters and softboot discussion. The focus on such a small number of posters (yes, one of them very vocal) to claim that BOL is anti-softboot is a very narrow reading of this thread.

Here is a recent one from Snowman:

Nobody is telling anyone to go somewhere else. What is beeing so eloquently said is: this is a website the was origionally started to give people who ride hardboots a venue to discuss all things hardboot. If you are coming to be part of this site, acknowledge this very basic and evident premise. Hardbooting is what we talk about, do, buy and sell, manufacturer, race, ride powder on, ect, ect. If you gonna cry in your soup about us (the Hardboot Taliban)don't. This thread has gone very awry. People are getting offended and upset, and the powers of keen grasp of the obvious are not being used.

Don't let Bomberonline loose its orgional heart and soul.

Think Snow!

[Puddy Tat]

Responses to a softboot question at TGR!

Holy cow and I thought you guys were kidding about TGR.

Five messages in and I was thinking "come on give the guy a hand"

Ten messages in and it was "are you kidding me?"

After fifteen I blacked out --- apparently my wife found me in the fetal position mumbling "Find a happy place... find a happy place"

Dave

[Neil Gendzwill]

Holy cow and I thought you guys were kidding about TGR.

To be fair to TGR, the guy did post in the wrong forum. If he had just left and reposted in tech talk as directed, he may have gotten some good responses. There's a lot of good stuff in their gimp forum too.

[Jack M]

Responses to a softboot question at TGR!

Yikes. carvedog, wtf?

[carvedog]

Holy cow and I thought you guys were kidding about TGR.

Five messages in and I was thinking "come on give the guy a hand"

Ten messages in and it was "are you kidding me?"

After fifteen I blacked out --- apparently my wife found me in the fetal position mumbling "Find a happy place... find a happy place"

Dave

Puddy - you have to know that there is a long tradition of people stumbling across TGR, posting in the first thread they find instead of looking at all those letters and words below that - as if they might mean something like categories or something - and then getting hazed a bit. It did start off rather benign. There is virtually no moderation for content. Spammers are not allowed. Violent threats ( if deemed real ) and posting up people's personal info are just a couple of ways to get banned, but you have to try real hard.

If you don't have a thick skin, no reason to go there. But with 25K plus forum members it's attractive for depth of resource and good folks all over the country. Attractive to spammers too so that's why they get hit a lot.

I have tried to get folks from Bomber to go rafting with me for years. Hooked up with a couple of maggots ( TGR members ) last year for a Middle Fork Salmon trip and had a ball.

[carvedog]

Yikes. carvedog, wtf?

The ski and snowboard forum is for ski and snowboard stoke and related posts only. The forum is self-regulating, if he can't take it he can leave.

It is quite clear in the intro and guidelines that technical questions like "what kind of ski should I buy to ski in Jackson" are for Tech Talk. That one came up recently and was equally well received on the Ski/Snowboard forum.

Even though he is a snowboarder I feel no kinship as I do with bomber members. No one gets an answer to tech questions on the main forum. No one. Especially snowboarders. It's hard enough to get respect over there without one of us violating one of the most enforced guidelines out there.

Could you imagine if this community did grow to 25 or 30k members how many board, boot and binding questions there would be?? Enough to fill an entire forum I would imagine.

So the dude should have dealt with it, moved it to tech talk and grown a sack. It's all just internet douchebaggery anyway.

Anyone who takes any of this too seriously is really kind of pissing into the wind anyway. Just comes back at you.

The bomber members I have met in real life have proven to be outstanding folks that I really enjoyed getting to know. So I try to play nice here.

[tex1230]

Read Dookey's post in that TGR thread. It explains everything. TGR and Bomber have their own cultures. Granted TGR is much harsher to n00bs, but both here and there, the idea is simple. You wouldn't walk into a locals bar at a ski area for the first time and start talking **** like you belong there. You hang out for a while and learn who the players are, or you invite abuse. (Hear That, AK and Steve?)

[Jack M]

fair enough. but wouldn't it have been more effective and less of your time/effort to simply say "this question belongs in the x forum."?

[Buell]

TGR is not that bad if you are paying attention. I have a number of posts on there and no one has said a negative thing to me. I had read it for a couple of years before ever posting though. As Carvedog said, provide stoke in the main forum, that is what it is about.

This TGR thread is worse than normal because the OP said some really stupid things early on and has continued to be an idiot as the thread grows.

[John Gilmour]

Breaking my vow of silence (regarding softboot carving) here, just for this time.

Although I voted "Yes', I can sympathesize with the both sides of the argument. I agree that Bomber should always be Bobmer, but I do also agree that softboot carvers should be made more welcome here.

Come to think of it, gosh, are we beginning to sound like skies now?

I honestly cannot predict whether creating the new forum would be good or bad in the long run in our quest to convert softbooters to hardbooters. It may allow more peaceful co-existence between the two groups, but it may also serve to segregate them further. Maybe someday softbooters will start their own SES (Softboot Expression Session)!

Finally, I always enjoyed reading Mr Gilmour's informative posts in the carving community, even though I mostly carve on plates now. To think that we would be hearing from Mr Gilmour less often in the main forum saddens me.

I wonder if you think I am a hardbooter first or softbooter?

I rode softboots for 2 days before I switched to hardboots in 1983. Favorite conditions though were riding powder. Boards really did not carve well pre-1985 before the Sims 1710 blade.

I lived on the East Coast before HKD snowguns existed and better grooming- and for 90% of the days IMHO you were far better off in Hardboots. In fact..hard to admit it...I thought softbooters were just idiots for using the wrong gear for those rock hard snow conditions in the 1980's.

I moved to Aspen. 2008. That year... I sat indoors for days at a time waiting for the snow to firm up. It snowed a ton. I decided to get a Powder board and really make it carve......and ride Pow too. There are many days...when riding Hardboots and carving decks IMHO are not as good as riding softboots.

I ride both now.... AND IT IS GREAT! for number of reasons.

1. I never have to lose a day of riding.

2.I can alternate when softbotos make my feet sore, or hardboots make my shins sore

3. I can carve on anything.

and...

If needed.....

I could travel somewhere without any gear...rent...and still ride well- and outcarve just about anyone on the hill on rental gear- even hardbooters unless it was yellowish frozen granular.

However.... most certainly..I am a carver.

..not a Jibber, not a park rat, not a half piper, not even a BX'er.

I spend just as much time carving in softboots as hardboots. And at the moment I can EC at higher speeds on super hard snow on a 168cm Rossi Judge in softboots than on my 185CM Kessler PGS in hardboots. Scary fast..

There are some days when I see hardbooters in the soft snow crud trying to carve and I wonder.... why won't they get some soft boots and carve in this stuff better? But not all softboots and bindings are equivalent.

...to be cont.....

[John E]

I used to frequent a car related forum that had lots of great info posted by members with DIYs, step-by-step procedures with photos, etc. Stuff that a mechanic would charge thousands to do.

The forum became dominated by some "my way or the highway" members who got into shouting matches with some of the real contributors and they took the highway. The forum degraded to one big on opinions and short on any real content. I rarely visit there anymore.

I hope that does not happen here.

[Puddy Tat]

Puddy - you have to know that there is a long tradition of people stumbling across TGR, posting in the first thread they find instead of looking at all those letters and words below that - as if they might mean something like categories or something - and then getting hazed a bit. It did start off rather benign. There is virtually no moderation for content. Spammers are not allowed. Violent threats ( if deemed real ) and posting up people's personal info are just a couple of ways to get banned, but you have to try real hard.

If you don't have a thick skin, no reason to go there. But with 25K plus forum members it's attractive for depth of resource and good folks all over the country. Attractive to spammers too so that's why they get hit a lot.

I have tried to get folks from Bomber to go rafting with me for years. Hooked up with a couple of maggots ( TGR members ) last year for a Middle Fork Salmon trip and had a ball.

Actually I'm not all that sensitive. There was just nothing going on in the thread at all. It's interesting, when you see sites like that you start to realize how good we have it here.

We have a variety of personalities here, like anywhere, that sometime clash, but it is generally kept within reasonable bounds, and when someone comes in fires off a post they generally get a coherent answer. Sure we have heated arguements and administrators who troll (cough) <COUGH>. But overall the admins and the members do a great job keeping the board focused, organized and under control.

Honestly had the first thing I saw on BOL been like that TGR thread I wouldn't have bothered hanging around and getting to know who people were on here. It would have been too much work to dig though the chaff to find the info.

Again props to Fin, Michelle, and Jack (and any other admins I don't know about) for keeping a loose rein on this place.

Also in spite of having bumped heads with SoftbootSailor in the past, I think having varied opinions on this site is healthy for the overall community. His leaving would be a loss to this group.

Dave

[MUD]

How did we get on a TGR tangent??? ;)

Personally I don't have time for sites like TGR. The older I get, the less patients I have for other peoples "personalities", TGR is just that, a bunch of personalities.

My personal favorite sites on the web are HEAVILY moderated. People are treated as though you are standing in front of them having a conversation, like adults if you will. The amount of useful information that is easy to get is AMAZING, no noise to sift through. If you post information you need to state it is your opinion or back it with DATA!

I have said this before, I know it is not the kind of site you guys are after, but hey, I don't hang around much anymore anyway.

[John Gilmour]

what is important is that when you google for "snowboard carving"..the first forum you hit is bomberonline..then freecarve.com

People IMHO just don't google "softboot carving" until perhaps they realize they are on a hardboot site which is biased to hardbooting. (rightly so- because carving fiercely is more accessible to hardbooters with less practice).

Like anything we refine our search terms to hit terms others have used in the past to try and find what we need.

Ironically ....softboot carving is becoming easier to hit by mistake with dual radius sidecuts.. while at the same time... I think dual radius may make some types of carving harder.

To shun the softbooters...well...it might be silly. At the same time...I would not be surprised to find that a lot of Bomber posters had a stronger ski or ski racing background than softboot carvers....and have a similar frustration with softbooters that skiers have against snowboarders.

To mix content between the two types of carving... doesn't help.

Also.... there may come a time when softboots with their faster generation times in boot and binding development become very competitive with hard boots for recreational carving.

[MUD]

To shun the softbooters...well...it might be silly. At the same time...I would not be surprised to find that a lot of Bomber posters had a stronger ski or ski racing background than softboot carvers....and have a similar frustration with softbooters that skiers have against snowboarders.

To mix content between the two types of carving... doesn't help.

Also.... there may come a time when softboots with their faster generation times in boot and binding development become very competitive with hard boots for recreational carving.

I think with the new generation of skis now, we are going to see this less and less. The cross-overs are going to be the people that used to board and now have families that are getting back into it.... IF we want to grow, this is who we are going to be seeing. AND some of these may still have the opinion that hardbooting is for snowboarders that used to ski.:o

[Snowman]

.

Also.... there may come a time when softboots with their faster generation times in boot and binding development become very competitive with hard boots for recreational carving.

:lol: Thats rich.

Think Snow!

[Jack M]

I could travel somewhere without any gear...rent...and still ride well- and outcarve just about anyone on the hill on rental gear- even hardbooters unless it was yellowish frozen granular.

Dude you are so awesome! Next time I see you can I rub you?

I spend just as much time carving in softboots as hardboots. And at the moment I can EC at higher speeds on super hard snow on a 168cm Rossi Judge in softboots than on my 185CM Kessler PGS in hardboots. Scary fast..

Outstanding! Why didn't we see anyone in the Olympics on your setup??

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p ;)

[dingbat]

Outstanding! Why didn't we see anyone in the Olympics on your setup??

ECing is not an Olympic sport yet..... Duhhh!:p

[Helmut Karvlow]

some of you are confused on the term " carving"

going at a high rate of speed and over powering the board so you get a(flex and release, flex and release and flex and release as you make a turn is NOT carving running the board clean through the turn as it flexs one time is a carv. as least in my world it is.:D

[lonbordin]

Wow... still at this? Really?

Let me know when when we can all kiss and make up.

[bobdea]

okay, so, is this the thread that will dethrone the WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY OT thread?

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

okay, so, is this the thread that will dethrone the WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY OT thread?

Not likely. It is only open for another week according to Fin's original post.

This poll will only be up for two weeks so please vote now if you have an opinion on this

Fortunately only one week to go.

[Mig]

I wonder if you think I am a hardbooter first or softbooter?

I think you're a snowboarder first. ;)

Or maybe a slalom skateboarder first?!? Wassup John! It's big Mig, from slalom racing (Fullbag)...

I did not want this to be my first post on Bomber, but I'm just too curious: :D

I rode softboots for 2 days before I switched to hardboots in 1983. Favorite conditions though were riding powder. Boards really did not carve well pre-1985 before the Sims 1710 blade.

What hardboots did you switch too in 1983? And what binding and board were you using?

I don't remember seeing anyone on them until a couple years later, and even then it was mainly lace up plastic mountainering boots in "regular" bindings.

I discovered carving on soft groomers and groomed spring slush (no man made snow in my area back then) in 1983 with my Burton Powdergun (I started riding in 1979). I stitched a leather loop at the top of my Sorel-type boots to hold the heelstrap high enough on the back of my leg so that it acted like a hiback on heelside turns. After seeing it worked really well in less than ideal pow conditions, I gave it a try on the groomers and was amazed.

Next board was the first Elite 150 (square tail). It was nice having edges and p-tex but it felt like a piece of **** compared to the Powdergun. You could only skid turns, even in pow.

By the way, carving to me has always been about making round turns and leaving just a thin track, no skid.

And to keep this topic related, I voted yes. There's no snowboard forum on the net that caters to softboot carving, or where softbooters with a carving style can feel welcome (at least I never stumbled across a good one).

I raced (and rode exclusively) on hardboots back in the late 80s and early 90s on the provincial circuit, with guys like Jasey-Jay and his brother, and even got a couple podium finishes (he probably doesn't remember me though, I am a lot older... LOL). Even if I did pretty good, I got fed up with the elitist attitude of some of the racers and went back to softies and freeriding. My local area had better pow than groomers anyway. I started considering getting back into alpine carving since I got back into racing slalom skateboards 5 or 6 years ago. So I started lurking more and more on Bomber. This poll prompted me to become a member.

I'm sure fin is a good enough businessman to see that a specific softboot carving forum is a good thing for futur business and the futur of alpine/hardboot carving.:)

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Mig , welcome to Bomber!!

So this thread did serve a constructive-positive purpose. I.E Bringing another lucker into the light!!

Glad you have your experience and positive outlook on the forum.

Yes, the Powdergun RULED!!!!

[John Gilmour]

Dude you are so awesome! Next time I see you can I rub you?

Only if you are covered with playboy playmates..

Outstanding! Why didn't we see anyone in the Olympics on your setup??

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :p ;)

Well, you did not see anyone BX'ing in Hardboots in the final did you? I thought the course would have lent it self to be ok for hardboots. But- I do think the softboot technology (in terms of flex profiles and internal heel retention and preventing foot rolling) is currently progressing faster than hardboot technology. IMHO.

I find myself surprised when I clip into my softboot set up and can have the feeling of being completely locked in like with hardboots..yet with less foot roll, and more heel retention...just not the stiffness and weight.

My set up is ridiculous....I would not want to see anyone try to duplicate it. I picked it specifically to handicap myself while I healing from my surgeries to prevent me from going fast. I mean....c'mon....a split tail Powderboard with high angles, soft bindings, and softboots for carving?????

But the fact is... I overcame this set ups' short comings and learned a lot about riding in the process...and still found a way to go stupid fast so I should still wear a helmet.

What I would prefer to ride is a 166cm Kessler BX with more updated bindings...and perhaps a stiffer softboot. ...but the BX boards are not really carvers....more like precise high speed skidders....in comparision to a freecarve set up.

And Jack coming from the Loaf....with its hard snow... I know you would find it hard to believe it....and I would react exactly the same way if our places were reversed. I would still tell any east coaster to buy hardboots and a carving set up first before ANY BX set up for the East Coast Snow bulletproof hardpack...though I hear the East Coast had a banner snow year.... far better than Aspen.

Selling my Kessler 185cm PGS for $999 + shipping...never base ground.... I'll buy a new one for next year..but likely shorter.