Alpine Snowboard Plate Systems

[Jack M]

Borrowing @Termin8tor‘s Apex X-Plate tomorrow, wish me luck!

 

[SunSurfer]

14 hours ago, Arjan de Jong said:

Personally, i am no racer anymore and love free riding with an Allflex plate attached to my board, others do not.

Arjan, thanks first for your informative posts about your experiences with the ALLFLEX family of plates.

Which flavour of ALLFLEX do you prefer to freeride with, and what performance features does it give you? What board(s) do you pair it with for free-riding and why? Have you been able to compare the performance with a sliding axle design like the SG plate?

[Arjan de Jong]

I prefer the H-type (Hex cut) soft since i am not a heavy rider (75kg). The performance it gives me, is increased edge grip on icy slopes, damping and taking away vibrations. I am riding SG Grabner Pro Team & Full Race Titan 163 with Allflex and Vist. 

Yes, i also own a SG Race Plate and if i compare it to the Allflex, the SG Plate allows the board to bend more (midsection)  since it's only attached to the board at two places (no anchors in the middle). Furthermore, the SG Plate feels more stiff than the Allflex H-type (hex cut) soft. Downside of the SG plate is the feeling with my board (less than with Allflex) since it 'floates' above the board and is not connected to the board like a Vist or Allflex plate. 

[SunSurfer]

^ Thanks Arjan,
I ride with sliding axle plates like the SG Race (Bomber Boiler Plate and my own design/build) but have taken to riding with the front axle fixed, and that axle approx under joint between the metatarsal bone and the first bone in my big toe. I feel this gives me a better feel for the board than other setups I have tried (different axle spacings and floating axle under the front foot). 

[nils]

On 18/01/2018 at 10:19 PM, noschoolrider said:

 

Allflex Snowboard Plates come in three models (Hexagonal Cut, Longitudinal Cut, and Diagonal Cut), plus the following model types, and options...

Allflex Hexagonal Cut Features:

    more stable and stronger in torsion

Hexagonal Cut Model Types:

    NORMAL – the hardest in torsion
    U – softer in torsion, also lighter
    H – the softest in torsion and the lightest

Hexagonal Cut available options:

GS Hexagonal Cut
Flex: Soft, Medium, Hard
GS–S = up to 70 kg / GS–M = up to 80 kg / GS–H = above 80 kg
Types: Normal, H, U
Width: 192 mm

SL Hexagonal Cut
Flex: Soft, Medium, Hard
SL–S = up to 70 kg / SL–M = up to 80 kg / SL–H = above 80 kg
Types: Normal, H, U
Width: 178 mm

ASL Hexagonal Cut
Flex: Soft, Medium, Hard
ASL-S = up to 50 kg / ASL–M = up to 60 kg / ASL–H = above 70 kg
Types: Normal, H, U;
Width: 171 mm

Allflex Longitudinal Cut Features:

    softer in torsion

Longitudinal Cut Model Types:

    NORMAL – the hardest in torsion
    U – softer in torsion, also lighter
    H – the softest in torsion and the lightest

Longitudinal Cut available options:

GS Longitudinal Cut
Flex: Soft, Medium, Hard
GS–S = up to 70 kg / GS–M = up to 80 kg / GS–H = above 80 kg
Types: Normal, H, U
Width: 192 mm

SL Longitudinal Cut
Flex: Soft, Medium, Hard
SL–S = up to 70 kg / SL–M = up to 80 kg / SL–H = above 80 kg
Types: Normal, H, U
Width: 178 mm

ASL Longitudinal Cut
Flex: Soft, Medium, Hard
ASL-S = up to 50 kg / ASL–M = up to 60 kg / ASL–H = above 70 kg
Types: Normal, H, U
Width: 171 mm

Allflex Diagonal Cut Features:

    softer and lighter compared to the circular cuts - especially good in soft snow
    perfect for recreational carvers
    only super soft stiffness
    freecarving recommended

Diagonal Cut Model Types:

    NORMAL
    H – the softest in torsion and the lightest

Diagonal Cut available options:

GS Diagonal Cut
Flex: Soft
Types: Normal, H
Width: 192 mm

SL Diagonal Cut
Flex: Soft
Types: Normal, H
Width: 178 mm

And that is suppose to bring more people into alpine snowboarding?? ;)

[Jack M]

9 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

^ Thanks Arjan,
I ride with sliding axle plates like the SG Race (Bomber Boiler Plate and my own design/build) but have taken to riding with the front axle fixed, and that axle approx under joint between the metatarsal bone and the first bone in my big toe. I feel this gives me a better feel for the board than other setups I have tried (different axle spacings and floating axle under the front foot). 

Do you mean front axle fixed and rear axle floating?  Or both axles fixed?

[noschoolrider]

13 hours ago, nils said:

And that is suppose to bring more people into alpine snowboarding?? ;)

Really?  Doesn't that make as much sense as asking if the 7 different Kessler race boards listed in the image below are supposed to bring more people into alpine snowboarding?

They are supposed to benefit racers and upper level riders who make the effort to learn how to utilize them.  However, people who watch snowboard racers in events like the Olympics might become interested in alpine snowboarding, but you shouldn't expect them to start snowboarding on race (or high end) equipment.

If you don't like alpine bindings with lateral flex (a feature from racing) then don't use them.

If you don't like hard boots with spring systems (a feature from racing) then don't use them.

If you don't like snowboards with metal in them (a feature from racing) then don't use them.

If you don't like plate systems (a product from racing) then don't use them.

An opinion that is not based on your own actual experience with using that item is basically just a preconceived (prejudice) statement - regardless of how well researched it is. 

Some non-professionals will appreciate the benefits of technology that is trickled down from the research and development that goes into racing and some will not.  As in many other sports, the professionals have different needs than the average consumer.

Edited January 22, 2018 by noschoolrider

[SunSurfer]

1 hour ago, Jack Michaud said:

Do you mean front axle fixed and rear axle floating?  Or both axles fixed?

Axle & sliding axle design plates (e.g. BBP). I ride with the sliding axle at the back.

My aim is to have no plate bounce or relative plate/board movement under the ball of my front foot.

 

Edited January 22, 2018 by SunSurfer

[Beckmann AG]

 

It's a lot easier for an enthusiast to project an outcome based on the Kessler data table, than the Allflex layout.

The latter almost requires consulting a third party to assist with a purchasing decision, and it's still a crapshoot. 

"Is a ski race binding supposed to bring more people into alpine skiing?"

 A ski race binding sold to a recreational skier brings more money into alpine skiing. And that's the unstated goal of bringing more people into a given sport, is it not?

Likewise, offering 'too many' plates is a good way for Allflex to bring more money into Allflex. It's not like there are drastic tooling changes involved in each variation.

8 hours ago, noschoolrider said:

An opinion that is not based on your own actual experience with using that item is basically just a preconceived (prejudice) statement - regardless of how well researched it is.

 

So I should actually try opiates and related derivatives, before deciding not to use them recreationally?

If an enthusiast makes the effort to understand how various systems work and influence outcomes, that enthusiast is in a good position to decide whether or not a given product is applicable to their circumstance, without learning how to utilize them.

It's arguable that too many riders don't even make good use of the 'simple' equipment they have, let alone a system with greater complexity. 

8 hours ago, noschoolrider said:

f you don't like alpine bindings with lateral flex (a feature from racing) then don't use them.

If you don't like hard boots with spring systems (a feature from racing) then don't use them.

If you don't like snowboards with metal in them (a feature from racing) then don't use them.

If you don't like plate systems (a product from racing) then don't use them.

Reliance on bindings with lateral flex in racing has driven the dominant movement paradigm, which in turn has driven the adoption of both metal boards and plates if one hopes to compete.

The rest have their origins in, and have seen widespread adoption in skiing. Each is applicable to some end uses, and not so much others.

The listed 'innovations' may have obvious ties to snowboard racing, but snowboard racing isn't a de facto driver, nor is snowboard racing 'proof' of efficacy.

Edited January 23, 2018 by Beckmann AG

[lordmetroland]

3 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

So I should actually try opiates and related derivatives, before deciding not to use them recreationally?

Why yes, you should try them! In fact, you should try them every single day! You might also enjoy Movantik, for your opioid-induced constipation (OIC)! You're welcome!

Your faithful servant,

The Pharmaceutical Industry

Edited January 23, 2018 by lordmetroland

[noschoolrider]

On 1/22/2018 at 6:19 PM, Beckmann AG said:

It's a lot easier for an enthusiast to project an outcome based on the Kessler data table, than the Allflex layout.

Those Kessler snowboards and the Allflex plates are about $1,500 each, so I don't think either company is targeting the average "enthusiast".

Beckmann AG: "The latter almost requires consulting a third party to assist with a purchasing decision, and it's still a crapshoot."

Non-professionals cannot purchase directly from Allflex.  Authorized Allflex retailers are provided with the information (including rider biometric questions) to ask the customer so the customer can get the correct plate that will meet their needs (similar to when you purchase a ski race binding, or custom order an alpine snowboard).

Beckmann AG: "A ski race binding sold to a recreational skier brings more money into alpine skiing. Offering 'too many' plates is a good way for Allflex to bring more money into Allflex."

When a recreational snowboarder/skier purchases an Allflex plate from an authorized retailer how does that not provide a similar benefit to the retailer/industry? Several different companies offer multiple choices of ski race bindings.  Is that 'too many' or just enough ski race bindings?  The Allflex plates cannot be adjusted for the users weight like a ski binding can so Allflex offers several different choices (for flex and types of use like SL, GS, and freecarving).

Beckmann AG: "So I should actually try opiates and related derivatives, before deciding not to use them recreationally?"

People without commonsense might benefit from obeying the laws regarding the use of prescription drugs.  Seriously though, my "your own actual experience with using that item" comment was (in my opinion) an overdue 'tongue in cheek' response regarding all the negative opinions/comments (over the last several years) about metal boards and/or plate systems that have been made by people who never even tried them.

Beckmann AG: "The rest have their origins in, and have seen widespread adoption in skiing."

I deliberately did not write 'snowboard' hard boots or 'snowboard' racing because (as you mentioned) there is widespread adoption in (and origins from) skiing / ski racing.  However, if we stay 100% focused on snowboarding and what is available right now for alpine snowboarders then one can easily link the BTS and DGSS spring systems to the system from the Northwave race boots (revived as Mountain Slope boots).  The UPZ boots and their spring system can be linked to the Burton race boots, and metal board builders should tip their hats to Hans Kessler who applied several race ski innovations to his race boards, which gained notoriety in the 2002 Olympics.

Beckmann AG: "The listed 'innovations' may have obvious ties to snowboard racing, but snowboard racing isn't a de facto driver, nor is snowboard racing 'proof' of efficacy."

I never said or implied that snowboard racing is a de facto driver or that it is 'proof' of efficacy.  My intention was to provide the education/background regarding the history/evolution of the listed 'innovations' and to give credit where credit is due.

The question to me was, "And that is suppose to bring more people into alpine snowboarding?" and it was answered.

My questions are: 
1. Are the innovation naysayers and plate system haters just seeking confirmation of their negative beliefs?
2. Do some people really think snowboard racing / metal boards / plate systems are ruining alpine snowboarding (or ruining their ability to get the recreational snowboard equipment they want, and/or driving away potential alpine snowboarders)?

On 1/7/2018 at 6:27 AM, pokkis said:

I'm getting deja vu related to discussions of metal bords for free carving some 10 years back when people now talk about plates.

That they are suitable only for racers

Deja vu

Edited January 24, 2018 by noschoolrider
deja vu

[lowrider]

Easier to choose an oil for one's car based on viscosity than all the other claims about the added benefit of the various additives. I would interprete  the Allflex  vs Kessler data similarly . Kessler being the viscosity data Allflex the additive. They are there just harder to quantify. For those who have tried one , have a knowledge of racing and ride in adverse conditions all understand it's purpose as a tool to assist ones performance. This is a fact !  Anyone who denies this is just generating false news.  A debate on the many comparable and non comparable traits of various plate or plate like devises would just give me a head ache ! Is a plate better served stiff or limp do you par boil a gecko before roasting it ? You can eventually differentiate  some traits from the data but until you commit to sample the wares you are only speculating on your best guess.

[noschoolrider]

13 hours ago, lowrider said:

For those who have tried one , have a knowledge of racing and ride in adverse conditions all understand it's purpose as a tool to assist ones performance. This is a fact !  Anyone who denies this is just generating false news.

Edited January 24, 2018 by noschoolrider

[nils]

13 hours ago, noschoolrider said:

 

The question to me was, "And that is suppose to bring more people into alpine snowboarding?" and it was answered.

My questions are: 
1. Are the innovation naysayers and plate system haters just seeking confirmation of their negative beliefs?
2. Do some people really think snowboard racing / metal boards / plate systems are ruining alpine snowboarding (or ruining their ability to get the recreational snowboard equipment they want, and/or driving away potential alpine snowboarders)?

Deja vu

My question was provocative of course > the answer to it is no > alpine snowboarding is already complex to explain and expensive...Unless there is rich gear fan that want to go directly that path of course. I did not say it ruins the sport, but it is not I think something that will give a clear image of the sport...( we launched wide carving boards in 2002 for about the same reasons because we thought skinny 19cm decks 65+ angles were too specific and scary for the non alpine rider to switch to..)

Do plates and race boards work > obviously!

Do they work for non racers > yes of course, Pokkis is a good example of a guy that rips on that kind of equipment..

N

 

[noschoolrider]

On 1/23/2018 at 10:50 AM, nils said:

My question was provocative of course > the answer to it is no

On 1/5/2018 at 7:35 PM, Beckmann AG said:

the progression in snowboard racing will culminate in two athletes racing pogo sticks downhill

On 1/6/2018 at 9:39 AM, nils said:

Am glad to see am not alone thinking that!!

The answer you wanted is 'no' because you are seeking confirmation of your negative beliefs.  I did not give you what you wanted.

On 1/23/2018 at 10:50 AM, nils said:

I did not say it ruins the sport

On 1/6/2018 at 9:39 AM, nils said:

the fun of carving is now lost to a down the line path with big legs to survive the G's

I understand why some people don't like the look of modern snowboard racing and I understand why some people don't like the look of snowboarders sliding their extended bodies on the snow.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  Personally, I like to try everything and learn to do all of it.

However, in my opinion, your concerns seem a bit melodramatic because I find it difficult to believe that snowboard racing, riding on plates or metal boards are going to have a negative effect on recreational alpine snowboarding.  In my opinion, equipment keeps getting better and better (like the Swoard EC Pro Metal).

On 1/23/2018 at 10:50 AM, nils said:

it is not I think something that will give a clear image of the sport

The snowboarding done by Sigi (on his plate) in the video below seems to give a clear (and positive) image of the sport, and the carving looks fun to me.  The video is a few years old, however snowboard race technique and parallel race courses shifted to "a down the line path" long before this video was made (they vary based on course setter choice, location and conditions).  Freeriding on plates still looks the same (and fun) to me.

 

Philipp Schoch - 2002 Olympics Men's Parallel Giant Slalom (you need to use the link below because YouTube will not allow that video to be embedded):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07Ds4-9DdTE
 

FIS Rogla - January 2018 Men's Parallel Giant Slalom snowboard race highlights

Edited January 29, 2018 by noschoolrider
added 2002 and 2018 men's parallel giant slalom snowboard race highlights

[yamifumi]

On 1/22/2018 at 10:34 PM, noschoolrider said:

Non-professionals cannot purchase directly from Allflex.  Authorized Allflex retailers are provided with the information (including rider biometric questions) to ask the customer so the customer can get the correct plate that will meet their needs (similar to when you purchase a ski race binding, or custom order an alpine snowboard).

Actually, you can get the allflex plate directly from the Allflex in Slovenia. I was in contact with the Alpine Snowboard Olympian, Gloria Kotnik, who works for Allflex and she helped me pick out the right Allflex plate with Email. 

Maybe they changed since 2016??

Edited January 24, 2018 by yamifumi

[noschoolrider]

2 hours ago, yamifumi said:

Actually, you can get the allflex plate directly from the Allflex in Slovenia. I was in contact with the Alpine Snowboard Olympian, Gloria Kotnik, who works for Allflex and she helped me pick out the right Allflex plate with Email. 

Maybe they changed since 2016??

Thank you for sharing that yamifumi.  You're right, it looks like their retail prices have been on their contact page for awhile now.  It's good to hear you were assisted by such a highly skilled and experienced representative.  Your information might help some doubtful people gain confidence in Allflex's business model, their retailers, and in their large range of plates.

Just curious: Did you use your plate on a board that was built for the specific plate you ordered?

Edited January 24, 2018 by noschoolrider

[Jack M]

On 1/19/2018 at 10:11 PM, Jack Michaud said:

Borrowing @Termin8tor‘s Apex X-Plate tomorrow, wish me luck!

 

Follow up on this - I liked it.  This is the lowest, lightest plate I've tried (15mm, 1500g).  Seems about as tall as Geckos.  My biggest issues with the other plates I've tried (Bomber, Donek AF) are the height and weight.  Turned me right off for freecarving.  The bumpers give back some board feel and snow feel, which is welcome, but the plate still does the isolation thing well.  This is a slightly older version, the new one has the bumpers next to and just behind the binding inserts, not in front and behind.  Their website shows only two bumpers mounted under each foot. The binding inserts are bottomless, so you can access the mounting screws for the 4x4 hardware through them.  This made removing the plate very easy.  I bet you could also learn to mount the plate this way too.  This also meant that it was very easy to reproduce my stance, as the plate inserts were aligned directly over my board inserts.  I guess the plate is made to match Kessler's insert pattern, ymmv.

I'm still not sure I *need* it for freecarving, I would still need to adapt to the extra height and weight, but it did start to disappear after a handful of runs.  The ride is definitely more comfortable.  I can see how it would be very beneficial for racing on a rutty course.  I think I need more time on one of these.  If I were to buy a plate now it would surely be this one.  I'm curious to try an Allflex, but I don't have a board with those inserts.  However I have to admit the mechanics of the thing don't make sense to me.  Only 6.4mm of travel before it locks up and becomes a flex modifier?  All that stress going into your board at the outward anchor points?  I don't see why this is better.

Someone should build a board with the plate mounting/hinging/sliding mechanism built right in...

[yamifumi]

16 hours ago, noschoolrider said:

Thank you for sharing that yamifumi.  You're right, it looks like their retail prices have been on their contact page for awhile now.  It's good to hear you were assisted by such a highly skilled and experienced representative.  Your information might help some doubtful people gain confidence in Allflex's business model, their retailers, and in their large range of plates.

Just curious: Did you use your plate on a board that was built for the specific plate you ordered?

I had SG Full Race 163 with Allflex inserts and I forwarded the board information and my weight + purpose for using the Allflex + Ability. Then she proposed the flex, cut, and shape of the Allflex plate. I ended up getting U-shape (longitudinal cut). Back when I ordered, there was no H-shape nor other cuts (hexagonal, diagonal cuts). So I am sure that they can guide more precisely in what the customer wants now even better than before.

Edited January 25, 2018 by yamifumi

[BlueB]

3 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

The binding inserts are bottomless, so you can access the mounting screws for the 4x4 hardware through them.  This made removing the plate very easy.  I bet you could also learn to mount the plate this way too. 

Does that mean that the entire aluminum insert bar pops out to the bottom, leaving the slot open, to get to the plate-to-board mounting screws? 

[Corey]

@Jack Michaud, about how stiff/soft are those red bushings?  

Sean (Donek) said that the one-way-hinge aspect of his AF plate design was critical to keeping board feel, which I assume is the same function you were noticing.  That got me thinking about putting bumpers between my Bomber plate and the board, but laziness has kept me from doing it.  With the axles at the widest setting, there are holes easily accessible to secure something like the above picture.  Your review might give me a kick in the butt to try that.  

[lonbordin]

6 minutes ago, Corey said:

@Jack Michaud, about how stiff/soft are those red bushings?  

Not Jack... but my keen eye tells me those are the same as the ones they use with the Gecko plates which are, urethane bumper pads (red, 90a durometer).  

Apex sells Medium (orange 70a durometer) bumpers as well.

[Jack M]

1 hour ago, BlueB said:

Does that mean that the entire aluminum insert bar pops out to the bottom, leaving the slot open, to get to the plate-to-board mounting screws? 

No, it's fixed.  You can insert an allen wrench through the inserts in the plate to get to the hardware-to-board mounting screws.

@Corey, I agree with lonbordin.  I would want to try both the red and the orange.

[BlueB]

4 minutes ago, Jack Michaud said:

No, it's fixed.  You can insert an allen wrench through the inserts in the plate to get to the hardware-to-board mounting screws. 

That's tight, but it could work... 

[Lurch]

6 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

Someone should build a board with the plate mounting/hinging/sliding mechanism built right in...

Now you have my full attention Jack. A low, lightweight, fully integrated mount system that allows one board and a couple of easily changed plates for different conditions would be really interesting.