Alpine Snowboard Plate Systems

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

The older Viste was basically a slab of plastic that does slide but is in contact with the top sheet throughout the turn.  Less "Disconnect"  yet it does add some dampening (if by nothing else just the weight)     The Donek, Boiler Plate all slide and "Bridge" the space between binding mounts.  This tends to insulate the ride a bit more than say the Viste and plates that mount to the top of the board.   This is similar to Mike Tinklers original designs.    The actual PLATE that you use has a lot to do with the "Feel" and Feedback to the rider.    Example.  The original 5mm boiler plate was very stiff and definitely provided a platform with a great deal of insulating effect.   The "Light" or 4mm BP was more popular because it allow more flex.     My modded 5mm provided a much better ride IMHO for free carving.     Lots of options and development will continue.   Try everything you can!!!  Find what works for you!! 

[ursle]

I had the first version of the Vist plate, it was locked on one end and slid on the other, when you turned and bent the board, the board moved away from the plate, there was never any friction, the Vist plate was great, it dampened the ride and allowed the board to bend evenly, now I’m on an apex plate, same thing but tighter.

[Beckmann AG]

On 1/4/2018 at 6:28 AM, nils said:

Bringing topic back to life....

I have checked the slow motions of last Worldcup races and the massive use of Allflex plates...

Now the boards don't even bend in an arc because they are blocked by the plate...and the design of the races has evolved to a less curvy path where the riders just throw the boards from side to side parallel to the slope's direction... ( I admire the skills/fitness/ training / stamina it takes to do it, but I find it not very sexy/stylish...)

I think we are going again in the direction where plates are going to be less usable for the recreational riders that want to arc tight turns, or see a separation from racing plates and freecarver's plates ( for those who uses them ( still lots don't because they are heavy, too high...))..

what's your thought about it?

Nils

From the look of a recently posted team Allflex training session vid, the progression in snowboard racing will culminate in two athletes racing pogo sticks downhill.

The boards appear essentially lifeless, with the athletes pounding up and down on them in order to turn.

Weird.

 

Interesting how classic downhill ski racing (Kitzbühel, Wengen, etc,) still resembles it's origin, which is to say, one athlete reading the mountain to find the fastest path to the finish. Meanwhile, snowboard racing bears almost no resemblance to, well, snowboarding.

[SunSurfer]

Erik, I think alpine snowboarding is waiting its' Ted Ligety, in the sense that the current ALLFLEX plate/board combinations require tail sideslip then carve turns. Until a rider gets to the top who goes faster by cleanly carving a greater proportion of their run, this style, and plate design paradigm, will remain. 
I am completely baffled by the success of the ALLFLEX, and not having had the chance to ride even one of its' flavours, have no insight into how apparently limiting the flex of the board, while presumably having a significant effect on mid-section torsional resistance might be an ideal compromise for a GS racer.

http://i-carve.com/snowboard_plate_systems/allflex_plate_systems    hexagonal / longitudinal & diagonal 

 

[nils]

13 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

From the look of a recently posted team Allflex training session vid, the progression in snowboard racing will culminate in two athletes racing pogo sticks downhill.

The boards appear essentially lifeless, with the athletes pounding up and down on them in order to turn.

Weird.

 

Interesting how classic downhill ski racing (Kitzbühel, Wengen, etc,) still resembles it's origin, which is to say, one athlete reading the mountain to find the fastest path to the finish. Meanwhile, snowboard racing bears almost no resemblance to, well, snowboarding.

Am glad to see am not alone thinking that!!

the boards almost don't bend!

Check this pic, even in freecarving...the board is almost non bending in the middle...typical of the allflex style...but the design of the races has been going this way for many years so...( first with kessler rocker, then plates...)...the fun of carving is now lost to a down the line path with big legs to survive the G's

 

N

 

 

 

[noschoolrider]

2 hours ago, nils said:

the boards almost don't bend!

Check this pic, even in freecarving...the board is almost non bending in the middle...typical of the allflex style...but the design of the races has been going this way for many years so...( first with kessler rocker, then plates...)...the fun of carving is now lost to a down the line path with big legs to survive the G's

Good observations Nils, and as you stated it has been going on for several years.

The Tinkler Snow Stix system has been around since the 1990's (Bryan/oldsnowboards.com is an expert in this area), so even back then snowboarders were using that system to increase the stiffness of a board.

In May of 2009 I made the following two posts:

Basically, the more the board bends in the middle area the more speed it loses when edging/turning, so a stiffer mid section is faster for racing.

Regarding racing: there are no points for looking good or for making nice carved turns (first to cross the finish wins regardless of how it looks).  When Jean-Claude Killy won three alpine events at the 1968 Winter Olympics some people said his skiing looked ugly, and when Jasey-Jay Anderson was a young snowboard racer some people said his riding looked too wild and that he was too much of a risk taker.  Anyway, I did enjoy (and do miss) watching bigger-turn single course snowboard races like they had in the 1998 Nagano Olympics.

On 1/4/2018 at 3:28 AM, nils said:

Bringing topic back to life....

I have checked the slow motions of last Worldcup races and the massive use of Allflex plates...

Now the boards don't even bend in an arc because they are blocked by the plate...and the design of the races has evolved to a less curvy path where the riders just throw the boards from side to side parallel to the slope's direction... ( I admire the skills/fitness/ training / stamina it takes to do it, but I find it not very sexy/stylish...)

I think we are going again in the direction where plates are going to be less usable for the recreational riders that want to arc tight turns, or see a separation from racing plates and freecarver's plates ( for those who uses them ( still lots don't because they are heavy, too high...))..

what's your thought about it?

Nils

I'm confident that as long as people can still order custom made boards the customer will be able to get flex patterns that are fun and more forgiving for freecarving.  I also think companies like Donek will continue to offer plates that are suitable for freecarving as long as the market exists.  As with most sports the majority of the research and development is focused on the needs of the pros (the top athletes), and for advancing the sport/competition.  Often the results are not what is best for the average consumer, however (as we have seen) many of the advances in equipment and technology can be adapted so they benefit the consumer.

My girlfriend says snowboard racing stopped being sexy when the guys quit using speed suits, but clearly it was because the women quit using speed suits.

Edited January 6, 2018 by noschoolrider

[noschoolrider]

15 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

I am completely baffled by the success of the ALLFLEX, and not having had the chance to ride even one of its' flavours, have no insight into how apparently limiting the flex of the board, while presumably having a significant effect on mid-section torsional resistance might be an ideal compromise for a GS racer.

Basically, the more the board bends in the middle area the more speed it loses when edging/turning, so a stiffer mid section is faster for racing.

This is why Kessler has been making the middle area of their race boards stiff for a long time.

Edited January 6, 2018 by noschoolrider

[SunSurfer]

That explanation seems counter-intuitive to me when the result we see in current racing videos is a significant amount of skidding in the turn, which should make the rider slower. I can see the real advantage in this setting of jumping the tail of the board around to the new edge in a way that minimises the friction loss of momentum, then a stiff board will hold a straighter and shorter line to the next gate.

When the SCR on FIS GS skis was made longer, the pundits told us that Ligety succeeded because he was able to cleanly carve these skis for more of the course. The overall wisdom in ski racing, as I understand it, is that a carved turn holds speed through the course better than a skidded turn.

Whatever the explanation, riders on ALLFLEX are winning races, lots of races. 

ps noschoolrider: start to worry when your girlfriend wants you in a speedsuit ;-) 

Edited January 6, 2018 by SunSurfer

[noschoolrider]

On 1/6/2018 at 12:59 PM, SunSurfer said:

That explanation seems counter-intuitive to me when the result we see in current racing videos is a significant amount of skidding in the turn, which should make the rider slower. I can see the real advantage in this setting of jumping the tail of the board around to the new edge in a way that minimises the friction loss of momentum, then a stiff board will hold a straighter and shorter line to the next gate.

When the SCR on FIS GS skis was made longer, the pundits told us that Ligety succeeded because he was able to cleanly carve these skis for more of the course. The overall wisdom in ski racing, as I understand it, is that a carved turn holds speed through the course better than a skidded turn.

Whatever the explanation, riders on ALLFLEX are winning races, lots of races. 

ps noschoolrider: start to worry when your girlfriend wants you in a speedsuit ;-) 

Here's the full text from two post I made in 2009 (in the 'Chronicles of the Happy Fun Plate at the Bomber Factory' thread):

1. Some of the new VSR boards have the stiffest area in the middle and because of this they do not bend as you would expect them to, and therefore they do not assume the exact shape of a radial arc like a conventional board does. However, they get the job done faster because they don't lose as much speed as a conventional board does.

2. Well, I recently finished several weeks of testing on 3 of Bruce's VSR prototypes and in my feedback to Bruce I said, "the middle of the board does not bend outward in the turn so it does not scrub/lose speed" and Bruce confirmed that this was a design trait that was taken off a modern race shape and he also said, "It is as you figured not designed to scrub speed off as a normal FC board."

The "Bruce" I mentioned in my posts is Bruce Varsava, owner of Coiler Snowboards and not only did he confirm that when the "the middle of the board does not bend outward in the turn so it does not scrub/lose speed" he also told me that it was some of the Kessler features he was experimenting with.  Also, over the past 8 years I have ordered several custom Kesslers directly from Hans Kessler and we have discussed this and several other things related to flex patterns and construction variations that he does for different plate systems.

p.s. no worries regarding the girlfriend and speed suits - been there done that.

Edited January 25, 2018 by noschoolrider

[Beckmann AG]

16 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

I think alpine snowboarding is waiting its' Ted Ligety, in the sense that the current ALLFLEX plate/board combinations require tail sideslip then carve turns.

Funny thing, Ligety tends to pound the end of the turn, much like contemporary snowboard  'race' technique. The critical difference is that the rebound sends him more 'forward', (which is to say into the glide path), than upward. Further, the prevalence of metal and extreme damping materials in snowboard racing will prevent accurate or timely movement of the base of support in a like manner. 

That said, the many contrivances of contemporary snowboard racing conspire against innovation, and it often appears there's a serious disconnect between coaching theory and classical mechanics.

58 minutes ago, SunSurfer said:

The overall wisdom in ski racing, as I understand it, is that a carved turn holds speed through the course better than a skidded turn.

Might be more beneficial to think of it as 'the athlete who can make it through the course with the least disruption to the surface should be fastest'. M Hirscher is notable for 'throwing them sideways', but he comes back on line with great dexterity, so the initial disruption to line is an asset, rather than a skidded, messy liability.

There are ways to affect line change dramatically without incurring significant losses. Brute force isn't the key, however.

 

Edited January 6, 2018 by Beckmann AG

[noschoolrider]

On 1/6/2018 at 12:59 PM, SunSurfer said:

When the SCR on FIS GS skis was made longer, the pundits told us that Ligety succeeded because he was able to cleanly carve these skis for more of the course. The overall wisdom in ski racing, as I understand it, is that a carved turn holds speed through the course better than a skidded turn.

The fastest overall speed is all that matters.  It all depends upon the course/slope/offset.  Sometimes a drift/redirect turn (which is more skidded than carved) will be a better choice because it can result in a more direct and faster line than if the racer was carving/edging more, and sometimes using rebound to create/maintain speed and/or change edges above the snow is a better choice (think of the overall distance traveled and how long it took to do it).  Also, some coaches consider race turns to be a series of recoveries - maybe it's the thrills from watching Bode Miller.

Edited January 31, 2018 by noschoolrider

[SunSurfer]

Thanks Don and Erik for the thoughtful answers. 

Just seen your website and qualifications Don. 

Edited January 6, 2018 by SunSurfer

[Lurch]

35 minutes ago, noschoolrider said:

Sometimes a drift turn (which is more skidded than carved) will be a better choice because it can result in a more direct and faster line 

But IF that same 'fast' line could be carved, rather than skidded, would it not be faster? (not withstanding the laws of physics permitting that of course)

[Beckmann AG]

Peripherally related. Sort of.

 

[noschoolrider]

On 1/6/2018 at 2:38 PM, Lurch said:

But IF that same 'fast' line could be carved, rather than skidded, would it not be faster? (not withstanding the laws of physics permitting that of course)

 It's dictated by what can and cannot be done and by what is the most effective. 

Basically, it depends upon the course and slope.  In general, extra carving will take the racer out of the tighter line, which means the racer will not be able to stay in the same 'fast' line.

If the time spent carving results in more speed lost from the carving, and/or more speed lost from moving farther across the hill (or through a turn), then that line will not be faster.  If the racers are traveling at slower speeds then it can also be beneficial to try to increase speed by pumping the board.

The only time a good racer intentionally skids to slow down is if the course requires it.  In the other situations you see, the racer is trying to turn as quickly as possible and do the skid/pivot with the least amount of speed loss.

Edited March 16 by noschoolrider

[Lurch]

Not disputing any of that Don; it is certainly the way of the alpine racing world at present. Sure it's not SuperG, but my point was simply that IF a superhero could run the fastest line carving, they would be faster than their skid/carve opponents.

If the alpine world was awash with cash and full of highly competitive manufactures like MotoGP or F1, there would undoubtedly be different solutions to the Allflex 'norm'. Casey Stoner was just one example of someone able to do something with technology that was seen as almost impossible by everyone inside the industry (except him and Ducati of course!). Sometimes who dares wins!

[noschoolrider]

1 hour ago, Lurch said:

my point was simply that IF a superhero could run the fastest line carving, they would be faster than their skid/carve opponents.

My bad, I thought you were asking me a serious question instead of posting a hypothetical point that was seeking confirmation of what you already believed in.  I guess it's like someone asking, if a superhero had wings and could flap them fast enough would they be able to fly?

Anyway, for your entertainment, here's a video of Ross Rebagliati's 1998 gold medal run and below that video is a link to a video of Vic Wild's 2014 gold medal run:

Vic Wild - 2014 Winter Olympics Men's Parallel Giant Slalom (you need to use the link below because YouTube will not allow that video to be embedded):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDilQWhZxfk

 

Edited January 7, 2018 by noschoolrider

[Lurch]

Nice videos - clearly some superheros do fly and you can be sure that when a new one pops up in racing with a fresh method (or equipment), everyone will soon be rocking that setup [cape optional :) ]. As with all racing, you are only the fastest until someone works out how to go faster. Hypothetically at least.

[SunSurfer]

From a style point of view Wild,  and Ester Ledecka, have a distinctively different technique. But that's a topic for the Racing section, not a thread on plates. Will be interesting to see if Vic can defend his GS title, and whether Ledecka can win her first, as well as compete in the skiing.

[nils]

Very interesting.!!!thnx..we see the plates topic has a major link to racing topic..what i wonder is: is the riding technique /style dictated by the gear, or is it the opposite , both in the pursuit of faster lInes. Have the race designers evolved so to adapt and make straighter and straighter runs ? Maybe it will evolve to straight down races if it continues that way...(I wish someone invents a contest format with waterski slalom like turns to counterbalance today’s racing..could be possible with rfid chips or other captors..)

Looking at the 2014 vid, at 1’34 we can see the rider clearly throwing the board away for the edge change..

My point in all this is that the plate trend is dictated by the racing gear, and unless riding uncomfy icy runs, i still don’t see why freecarving would require a plate...it seems to me since day 1 of plate trend that it’s the wrong direction for freecarving...also adding complexity, weight, clumsy feel, cost that will not be a good way to show non alpine riders to switch to alpine. It was the same thing in 1997-2002 when allostérique all available gear was 19cm wide at the most.

[lowrider]

The tone of this discussion leads me to believe that most don't see a place for plates in free carving and that may be true for those who have access to ideal conditions or choose only to board in ideal conditions. For many of the worlds 5-9 er's that is simply not the case and after laying out $100. for a lift ticket  getting your money's worth is sometimes a challenge. A plate on your board gives you the option of continuing to ride when the runs are rutted and choppy

[Surf Quebec]

2 hours ago, nils said:

My point in all this is that the plate trend is dictated by the racing gear, and unless riding uncomfy icy runs, i still don’t see why freecarving would require a plate...it seems to me since day 1 of plate trend that it’s the wrong direction for freecarving...also adding complexity, weight, clumsy feel, cost that will not be a good way to show non alpine riders to switch to alpine. 

I agree 100%

[pokkis]

I'm getting deja vu related to discussions of metal bords for free carving some 10 years back when people now talk about plates.

That they are suitable only for racers

[SunSurfer]

The term "plates" covers many designs and different functional approaches. The hinge and hinge/slide isolation plates, descendants of Benny Karl's original, minimise flat spots and improve torsional resistance without impairing the ability to bend the board into a smooth arc to carve the edge. This approach improves the ability to make clean free carves. It also allows older legs to keep carving for longer during any given day on the snow, both by reducing thigh muscle fatigue and by reducing the impact of lumpy snow conditions. At my age (58) that's a really good thing.

My personal belief is that this design has a place in freecarving. I rarely ride without one. But I don't EC, nor do I ride in the Joerg Egli style. I concentrate on clean, uninterrupted carves. 

[pokkis]

I've been playing again with long plate for change, and in process to compare between my own and VistFlex.
Main difference is mine is lighter and has longer axle spacing. Need plenty more test riding, but what i feel is good.

Looking this more for carving POV than racing.