TVR Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 With Beckmann AG making his own bindings in the enviable machine shop, I am surprised he hasn't built a range of plate magic as well to test against. I had an older Donek AF lying around, and it is interesting when ridden.... as a newbie to the sport, it definitely has a different feel, especially when it gets lumpy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 59 minutes ago, TVR said: With Beckmann AG making his own bindings in the enviable machine shop, I am surprised he hasn't built a range of plate magic as well to test against. Part one to a two part answer: A large amount of my time on the board is spent teaching/coaching, a situation in which a plate serves no purpose. Part two later, after driving and furnace repair. Hint: take note of the skier in yellow @2:27. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TVR Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 This was meant to be a complement, as you seem to be the guy with enough talent and knowledge of the sport to build with authority based from experience... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 ^ I took it as such, and I'd like to provide a quality answer. However, as Ani DiFranco once said, "I've got shitaake to do, and an appointment on Tuesday", so that answer will have to wait until this evening. Stick around, you might find it interesting. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 Most on this forum would want it for free or below cost . Not much of a business plan ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 (edited) TVR, On plates and custom parts: I had a conceptual plate made of carbon fiber somewhere around '95. It was shaped like the EPB ski plates, with the intent to anchor in the middle, with 'float' at either end. At the time I was on the Burton carbon race plate binding, riding a Factory Prime. Probably the slate grey top sheet; the one that came after the 'photon' graphic. The goal behind the carbon plate was to increase torsional rigidity of the board. (Ski manufacturers realized, at least a decade earlier, that torsional rigidity provided better grip on hard snow). I think it was the next year that I got a pair of TD1, and those were attached to an original Madd 158. Suddenly the plate didn't seem that important. What did matter, however, was tuning the medial/lateral boot cuff flex, so the boots would work with, and not against the more responsive binding/board system. So a lot of time went into making linkages and sliders that would allow the boots to flex freely in some directions, but only so much, and no more. The stiffer binding came about because the small base puck of the TD1 had a tendency to 'damage' boards, and the middle plate and tiny toe/heel blocks of the TD2 were too flexible, and the smaller fasteners precluded the use of ski binding cant wedges as a means of fine tuning on the short axis. A thicker intermediate plate drilled for the larger TD1 toe and heel blocks was a simple fix to the 'muddying' effect of a flexible binding on boot tuning. The goal of that tuning being a more effective suspension system, which is to say, the ability to move through a range of motion without imparting unintentional inputs to the board. ->With the understanding that perhaps the most significant element in motorsport and off-road cycling had been the development of more effective suspension systems. Engine management systems had improved drastically as well, but if you can't keep the wheels in contact with the ground, more Pferdestärke is just noise. An effective suspension requires either a lot of travel and a little damping, a lot of damping and little travel, or a balance of both. Most isocline plates allow the board to flex 'more fully', which implies the ability of the board to follow uneven terrain of larger amplitude. And they effectively block most torsional inputs, which encourages the board to follow a 'cleaner', less dissonant path over the snow. This is noticeable to the rider, as instability underfoot leads directly to muscle tension, and muscle tension has a way of magnifying shock, meanwhile compromising balance. Less twist to the board, better grip. Less incidental tension, less fatigue. Isoclines don't offer much in the way of damping, however. What offers a very large amount of damping, is slack muscle tissue in the column of support between the point of contact with the snow, and the upper body mass. In the video clip posted earlier, you might notice the unyielding right leg of the skier in yellow, but also notice the rather comical 'rolling' action of the related soft tissue. The ski bounces, the slack flesh dissipates the impact, and the skier's core is largely unaffected by surface contour. (Incidentally, this is the same principle used to attenuate wind loads on the original World Trade Center towers.) It should be obvious, by analogy, that the key to a smoother ride on a snowboard isn't necessarily an isolation device. Rather, it's finding a way to utilize the legs to their full capacity as the natural suspension system they are. The means to that end involves reduction of tension, to allow both travel and damping. That, in turn involves reduction in underfoot 'uncertainty'. That, in turn, involves finite tuning of the interface. That, incidentally, precludes the use of flexible bindings, or boots with squishy toe and heel pads. The system by which we achieve equilibrium in a given context is responsive to mere thousandths of an inch of contour change. (Recall that stabilizing muscle tension is proportional to 'instability'). So if you tune your interface even close to that tolerance, to 'calm the system' so to speak, you get some very interesting results. ->And getting back to the original point; all of that research and machining cuts into the time/incentive available for the development of a product that isn't all that necessary. Edited January 16, 2018 by Beckmann AG 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 Given that the knee and ankle are primarily hinge joints when the legs are used to absorb shocks, and the direction of motion of a carving snowboard what are your thoughts about the effect of binding angles on effective shock absorption? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 ^ Think of it in terms of how the joint articulation can affect/destabilize the interaction of the board with the snow, and how the boots can either translate of filter those inputs. Those associated either with leverage or pressure. I.e., flexing the joints parallel to the glide path of the platform is going to be less disruptive than that same articulation at 90 degrees to the glide path. The former may affect the bend in the platform tip to tail, while the latter will affect the tilt of the board relative to the snow. (It's easier to flex fore/aft at the ankle without the ankle tilting medial/lateral, than it is to flex at the knee without also dorsi/plantar flexing the ankle). It stands to reason, then, that steeper angles should allow for greater range of articulation in the legs without affecting the point of board/snow contact, while shallower angles will be more disruptive. It seems as well, that leg flexion is more problematic to the toeside than the heelside, as flexing toeside tends to increase edge angle, thereby decreasing turning radius, while the opposite is true to the heelside. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 AllFlex in action 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ursle Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Thank you for that, as we can see, unlike the Vist and apex plates that allow the board to flex while remaining stiff, err' in their original shape, the allflex plate bends with the board, yet still isolates the feet from twisting the board as the rider switches edges (pedaling), I've gots to get one of them. Both the Vist and Apex plates are locked to the board at the rear and slide at the front, allowing the board to bend fully with no crimping that happens without a plate, the bindings without a plate make a flat spot in the middle of the board, why would anyone carve without a plate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Vist bends to some extent too and stiffens the board somewhat in the middle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Agree, Vist bends like board, and VistFlex bends quite like AllFlex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ursle Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 I'm from Missouri.... Ok, my point was to take the Vist out of the category of plates secured to the board at both ends. Nothing wrong with a plate simply raising the rider off the board and dampening the ride and transmitting the riders energy to the edge, not squirreling it away twisting the board underfoot (pedaling), but it doesn't help the board bend naturally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Yep, both Vist version use 3 contact points, both ends and middle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ursle Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Let me rephrase, of the three contact points only one locks the board, the other two let it slide, to be more specific, I lock it to the rear and float it on the front, so it allows the board to bend naturally, just like apex plates work. Vs boards that lock both front and rear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 Nice photo Pokkis! That changes what I thought the Allflex did... That's a lot of bending for an aluminum plate - I wonder how long they last before fatigue cracks form. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted January 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 9 hours ago, pokkis said: AllFlex in action Not to mention it is a killer heel side photo!! Who is the rider? Pokkis? Weight, board etc please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 9 hours ago, pokkis said: Yep, both Vist version use 3 contact points, both ends and middle. I'm pretty sure the 3-point system is used only when you want to lock the centre and float both ends. Otherwise, if one of the ends is locked (usually back), the other end floats and middle is not used at all. I like the Vist quite a lot, btw. Except for the weight... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted January 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 4 hours ago, BlueB said: I'm pretty sure the 3-point system is used only when you want to lock the centre and float both ends. Otherwise, if one of the ends is locked (usually back), the other end floats and middle is not used at all. I like the Vist quite a lot, btw. Except for the weight... Agreed, that and most are not anxious to drill the extra holes in the middle of their board. My experience is that the center is not needed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 No idea of rider etc, just seen it on frozen-backside site. Vist should have center holes drilled, specially Vistflex really need them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrishaMac Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 On 2010-02-06 at 5:14 PM, www.oldsnowboards.com said: Available at Hardbooter.com http://www.viddler.com/explore/HardBooter/videos/21/ I looking for a Vist Plate. Do you have one available? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted January 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 2 hours ago, TrishaMac said: I looking for a Vist Plate. Do you have one available? Just sold one. Sorry I don't have any left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 On 1/17/2018 at 1:57 PM, Corey said: Nice photo Pokkis! That changes what I thought the Allflex did... That's a lot of bending for an aluminum plate - I wonder how long they last before fatigue cracks form. Yeah. This photo seems to contradict the descriptions and illustrations on Allflex's own website: http://www.allflexplate.com/ENG/Features And given the material and structure of the Allflex plate I can't fathom it flexing that much. I have to wonder if the plate in this photo is not an Allflex in the first place. Is it confirmed? From their site: "1. The Allflex plate allows independent and unobstructed bending of the ski or the snowboard as well as a complete grip of the edge carved into the snow. The ski or snowboard bends in one arch due to the floating mounting of the plate." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 Here with Google image search Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonbordin Posted January 18, 2018 Report Share Posted January 18, 2018 (edited) The source instagram is here- https://www.instagram.com/allflexkorea/ Ooo they have a give-a-way: http://www.ingr.club/m/1692806525788503737_2784417521 Edited January 18, 2018 by lonbordin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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