Alpine Snowboard Plate Systems

[pokkis]

here another one, bend by wintergold with .951

Edited January 18, 2018 by pokkis

[GeoffV]

I am questioning if that is an Allflex plate as well. There are a few other builders that are making "Allflex Like" plates that look very similar.  I had a 5mm Boiler Plate and there is no way I could get that much flex out of it in the mid section. Looking through some of the FIS pictures, here is one racer that appears to be on an Allflex, I don't see it flexing, but it is a different angle and who know what kind of plate it is. If my TD3's flexed that much they would snap (I have snapped the top plate of a TD2).

https://fis.smugmug.com/FISSnowboard/World-Cup/2017/Alpine-Snowboard-World-Cup/01-Carezza/i-xvxtM5j/O

Here we go...this is what I would expect the plate to look like

Edited January 18, 2018 by GeoffV

[pokkis]

As above, both pics are from Korean Allflex website, url is there above.

And last rider i linked is same as in this pic where this discussion started, here too with .951

 

Edited January 18, 2018 by pokkis

[pokkis]

Here screen cap

 

[pokkis]

12 minutes ago, GeoffV said:

Here we go...this is what I would expect the plate to look like

 

That is not AllFlex, that is KB's own plate before he moved to AllFlex

[steven]

Of what is available today, whats the favored/helpful plate for clean free carving?

 

[noschoolrider]

2 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

Yeah.  This photo seems to contradict the descriptions and illustrations on Allflex's own website: http://www.allflexplate.com/ENG/Features

And given the material and structure of the Allflex plate I can't fathom it flexing that much.  I have to wonder if the plate in this photo is not an Allflex in the first place.  Is it confirmed?

Jack, you are confusing the Allflex Ski plate with the Allflex Snowboard plate.  
From their site: "#20. The Allflex plate solves all problems with injuries for skiers that are results of bindings adjusted too tightly, which is necessary with other plates as the ski bends under the ski boot along with the plate when pressure is applied. The Allflex plate, on the other hand, does not bend and allows for free bending of the ski while the bindings don't have to be adjusted more tightly."   The "does not bend" only applies to the Allflex Ski plate.

Allflex Snowboard Plates come in three models (Hexagonal Cut, Longitudinal Cut, and Diagonal Cut), plus the following model types, and options...

Allflex Hexagonal Cut Features:

    more stable and stronger in torsion

Hexagonal Cut Model Types:

    NORMAL – the hardest in torsion
    U – softer in torsion, also lighter
    H – the softest in torsion and the lightest

Hexagonal Cut available options:

GS Hexagonal Cut
Flex: Soft, Medium, Hard
GS–S = up to 70 kg / GS–M = up to 80 kg / GS–H = above 80 kg
Types: Normal, H, U
Width: 192 mm

SL Hexagonal Cut
Flex: Soft, Medium, Hard
SL–S = up to 70 kg / SL–M = up to 80 kg / SL–H = above 80 kg
Types: Normal, H, U
Width: 178 mm

ASL Hexagonal Cut
Flex: Soft, Medium, Hard
ASL-S = up to 50 kg / ASL–M = up to 60 kg / ASL–H = above 70 kg
Types: Normal, H, U;
Width: 171 mm

Allflex Longitudinal Cut Features:

    softer in torsion

Longitudinal Cut Model Types:

    NORMAL – the hardest in torsion
    U – softer in torsion, also lighter
    H – the softest in torsion and the lightest

Longitudinal Cut available options:

GS Longitudinal Cut
Flex: Soft, Medium, Hard
GS–S = up to 70 kg / GS–M = up to 80 kg / GS–H = above 80 kg
Types: Normal, H, U
Width: 192 mm

SL Longitudinal Cut
Flex: Soft, Medium, Hard
SL–S = up to 70 kg / SL–M = up to 80 kg / SL–H = above 80 kg
Types: Normal, H, U
Width: 178 mm

ASL Longitudinal Cut
Flex: Soft, Medium, Hard
ASL-S = up to 50 kg / ASL–M = up to 60 kg / ASL–H = above 70 kg
Types: Normal, H, U
Width: 171 mm

Allflex Diagonal Cut Features:

    softer and lighter compared to the circular cuts - especially good in soft snow
    perfect for recreational carvers
    only super soft stiffness
    freecarving recommended

Diagonal Cut Model Types:

    NORMAL
    H – the softest in torsion and the lightest

Diagonal Cut available options:

GS Diagonal Cut
Flex: Soft
Types: Normal, H
Width: 192 mm

SL Diagonal Cut
Flex: Soft
Types: Normal, H
Width: 178 mm

Edited January 18, 2018 by noschoolrider

[Jack M]

24 minutes ago, noschoolrider said:

Jack, you are confusing the Allflex Ski plate with the Allflex Snowboard plate.

No, I am not.  You've misread my post, and the Allflex page I referenced.

[noschoolrider]

On 1/18/2018 at 1:32 PM, Jack Michaud said:

No, I am not.  You've misread my post, and the Allflex page I referenced.

At the top of the Allflex page you referenced it says, "ALLFLEX SKI AND SNOWBOARD PLATES".
The illustrations on that page are of the SKI plate.
The descriptions on that page are of the SKI and the SNOWBOARD plates - some of the descriptions on that page only apply to the SKI plate.

Regarding your comment, "And given the material and structure of the Allflex plate I can't fathom it flexing that much."
Some of the Allflex snowboard plates are very soft and (as shown in the pictures) do flex that much.  Some Allflex snowboard plates flex more than others and some race boards flex more in the middle than others.

Regarding your comment, "I have to wonder if the plate in this photo is not an Allflex in the first place."
Have you ever noticed how much the wing of a jet can flex? - like the wing of a Boeing 777

The photo that GeoffV posted (with the very stiff plate) is of Benjamin Karl on his homemade plate - the plate Benjamin created several years ago, which sparked the research and development that lead to the current isolation plates.

Please let me know if I "misread" anything.

Edited January 25, 2018 by noschoolrider

[Jack M]

Nothing on that page indicates the illustrations are only of the ski plate.

Again, "1. The Allflex plate allows independent and unobstructed bending of the ski or the snowboard as well as a complete grip of the edge carved into the snow. The ski or snowboard bends in one arch due to the floating mounting of the plate."

That certainly describes behavior very different than these photos.  I don't claim to know what plate is or is not in these photos, just pointing out that the description and illustrations on Allflex's website seem to be at odds with these photos.

These observations seem to agree with Bola's findings that the Allflex plate alters the flex of the board, unlike other isolation plates like Apex:

http://allboardssports.com/updated-thoughts-on-snowboard-plates-alpine-snowboard-plates/

But I mean hey, if racers are winning on it, then great.  That certainly seems to be the case.  I was just agreeing with Corey that these pictures change my perception of exactly how the plate works.

[noschoolrider]

1 hour ago, Jack Michaud said:

Nothing on that page indicates the illustrations are only of the ski plate.

Again, "1. The Allflex plate allows independent and unobstructed bending of the ski or the snowboard as well as a complete grip of the edge carved into the snow. The ski or snowboard bends in one arch due to the floating mounting of the plate."

That certainly describes behavior very different than these photos.  I don't claim to know what plate is or is not in these photos, just pointing out that the description and illustrations on Allflex's website seem to be at odds with these photos.

These observations seem to agree with Bola's findings that the Allflex plate alters the flex of the board, unlike other isolation plates like Apex:

http://allboardssports.com/updated-thoughts-on-snowboard-plates-alpine-snowboard-plates/

But I mean hey, if racers are winning on it, then great.  That certainly seems to be the case.  I was just agreeing with Corey that these pictures change my perception of exactly how the plate works.

I understand what you are saying.

FYI: You can order an Allflex snowboard plate with features/options that will allow independent and unobstructed bending of the board, and you can order an Allflex snowboard plate with features/options that can alter the flex of the board.  Plus, there are several torsional stiffness choices for each model of Allflex snowboard plates, and when custom ordering a race board you can select different stiffness/flex in the mid section.

Some racers using the Allflex are on a fairly stiff version of the plate with a board that has a fairly stiff mid section, while other racers are using different variations of Allflex plate stiffness and board stiffness.

In Bola's article he mentions differences in snowboard stiffness/flex (between a standard board and a board with the Allflex insert pattern).

Here are some interesting sentences from Bola's article:
"One important thing the Allflex plate has introduced back into snowboard development is the modification of the stiffness that benefits those that want to freecarve and not race gates, even though you will not likely see this group of riders on an Allflex plate. The progression of the alpine boards has been toward stiffer decks that makes it difficult or almost impossible for beginner to the intermediate riders to master and have fun on the slope, it is a good thing Allflex changed that direction. The dramatic change in flex pattern between a standard board and a board with the Allflex insert pattern to be used with Allflex plate speaks volume. Before the flex pattern adjustments by manufacturers, it is obvious the in certain conditions, the semi rigid system was a tough stallion to tame."

So, it seems the Allflex page and Bola's article do not mention/explain all of the options/variables.

[Jack M]

That section says to me that Bola hasn't been keeping up with Donek or Coiler or Prior or (fill in the blank).  The progression of race snowboards may have been toward stiffer decks, but that doesn't mean all alpine boards have.

[crote123]

Am I correct in assuming that the Allflex plate itself will not bend until the board itself has bent enough such that the plate will be locked in the brackets (the pivots filling the gap between the plate and brackets)?  and at that point the plate itself depending on its stiffness will bend or not?  If it's softer then it will allow to continue bending in an arc (as the plate bends, it receeds from its outward position) otherwise if the plate is very stiff, it won't allow the board to continue in an arc and only the tip and tail of the board can bend while the midsection stays constant.  The latter must then create a lot of stress on the board at the brackets location.

[lonbordin]

@WinterGold paging @WinterGold tell us more about the Allflex plate! 

[Arjan de Jong]

Hi Guys,

I have been following this thread for a while and would like to share my experience on the subject. I have been riding both the Vist and Allflex plate (H-type, hex cut, soft). Over the last few months i have done extensive testing with both types of plates. My experience is that with a Vist plate the board bends more in a normal way and much more compared to my Allflex plate. The latter has those anchors in the middle of the plate which extend to 6,4 cm max. So, with my Allflex plate the radius of my board is much bigger than with a Vist plate. Futhermore, on icy slopes i prefer to use the allflex since it gives me more edge grip. On sloppy and soft conditions i prefer the Vist because of two reasons: 1) the board does not get limited in flex compared to the Allflex plate so it can more easily flex in sloppy conditions independently from the plate. 2) with the Allflex plate i have less feeling of what the board is doing compared to a Vist plate. Especially in sloppy conditions i want to have extra feeling of what the board is doing so i can react better.

My trainer/coach is in contact with many WC riders and heard that many are breaking their Allflex plates, so i assume they do flex (but should they flex?) and eventually break due to fatigue. Although i ride a soft H-type version of Allflex i don't believe it flexes (have not noticed it so far).

Arjan

[Arjan de Jong]

In addition, one bad side of the allflex are the hinges. In snowy and cold conditions sometimes the freeze, thus not doing their job as supposed. So, the plate can trick you in a way you don't want (crashes).

[Arjan de Jong]

In addition, one bad side of the allflex are the hinges. In snowy and cold conditions sometimes they freeze, thus not doing their job as supposed. So, the plate can trick you in a way you don't want (crashes).

[pokkis]

I assume you referred to normal Vist plate, not to new VistFlex.

[Arjan de Jong]

Hi Pokkis,

Correct. that's why i posted two pictures of the plates i am using and have tested. 

Arjan

[Jack M]

4 hours ago, Arjan de Jong said:

The Allflex has those anchors in the middle of the plate which extend to 6,4 cm max.

Hi Arjan, thanks for sharing your experience, that was helpful.  The Allflex website says 6.4 mm, not cm.  That's not much at all, a board can bend much more than that during normal carving, so I'll bet your plate is indeed flexing while you carve.  The pictures posted recently of the Allflex show not much separation between the board and plate, so I'm inclined to believe it's 6.4mm.

I have to say, in theory the Allflex seems very counter-intuitive to me, but racers are doing well on it, so I wonder what the magic is. Seems like for those first 6.4mm of travel it is allowing the board to bend freely, and then after that it becomes a massive flex-modifier.

[pokkis]

Also VistFlex has about same amount free play before plate will start act same way

[Arjan de Jong]

Well, i have measured the middle anchors and it's much more than 6.4 mm. I will unscrew it from my board and make a picture of it to show how much/far they can extend. The hinges on the edges do extend to a max of around 6 mm. So, can we conclude from this that an allflex plate should be able to bend, since it extends to around 6 mm on the edge of the plate and much more in the middle of the plate? or can we conclude that the plate allows the midsection of the board to flex more? I believe the latter one.

The 'magic' of allflex to me it that especially on icy slopes it creates tremendous edge hold. Much more than with a plastic/normal vist plate. On sloppy conditions, the allflex plate does not work for me as described in my earlier post.

[Arjan de Jong]

Made me think; how far/much can you flex the midsection of a alpine board without a plate on it? I did notice that the radius of my board increased when i used the allflex plate, so it does limit the maximum flex of the midsection of the board. On the same board with a Vistplate i was able to carve much shorter turns...

[lonbordin]

26 minutes ago, Arjan de Jong said:

Made me think; how far/much can you flex the midsection of a alpine board without a plate on it?

It depends... 

Comes down to construction of board, size of rider, strength of rider, momentum and slope conditions.  At some point the board and the plate will fail.  Most isolation plates I've had the chance to handle seem much sturdier than the board they are attached to...

Some successful bends are here->

 

Edited January 19, 2018 by lonbordin
BEND IT!

[Arjan de Jong]

Well, i have heard several stories about WC riders breaking plates and breaking boards. In the end, everything will break at some point ;-)

On another note; it took me a while to go through the entire thread of 46 pages. From all the i have read, i draw a few conclusions and wonder if you guys feel the same:

1) As alpine boarders - including myself - we are on a constant quest to find the ideal material (board, boots, bindings, plate) combination. Looking for the holy grail sort of speak

2) We want to test all combinations, but due to lack of money, test possibilities etc we fall back on the experience of others, read about reviews, discuss experience in forums like this one and so on.

In the end, doesn't it just come down to personal preference? For example, my trainer/coach is very positive about OES boards for several reasons. So, i bought an OES WC board, rode it and came to the conclusion that it's not MY ideal board. Another example; in this thread there is a discussion about whether or not using a plate for free carving is the best choice. Personally, i am no racer anymore and love free riding with an Allflex plate attached to my board, others do not. Third example, many people are very positive about the Mountain Slope .951 boots, so i bought a pair and just don't like them over my UPZ RCR boots.