Chronicles of the Happy Fun Plate at the Bomber Factory

[fin]

Here are a bunch of picture from the testing:

Steamboat team streching in the morning

Ben and I posing during some testing. Ben was just getting ready to try it without the Torsion Bar.

Snowman setting up a test Donek with the HFP. He looks taller in person.

Random HFP shots

[*Ace*]

Looks pretty slick Fin!

Abasin looks empty.

Wish I was out there riding.

Keep up the good work!

[NateW]

Are we controlling the torsional flex or are WE being controlled BY the torsional flex. In other words the board still twists between our feet no matter what we do and we have to adjust to this motion? Or how about we do twist the board under our feet but this only happens as a by-product of the turn, in that we are not doing this on purpose but rather it just happens? Lots to think about what is going on between our feet. The point of the Torsion Bar is to see what happens when we remove this factor completely. Good or bad? Hope to find out.

It would be really interesting to be able to log torsion over time, plus edge angle and speed, like logging ECU data from a car, and find out how much torsion there is, and when, and for how long. My intuition says that most of the time, our front and rear feet are applying the same force to the board, so the middle has no cause to twist.

But on the other hand, that small fraction of the time where our legs are doing different things, is probably where we're absorbing irregularities in the snow and hanging on the very edge of control - in other words, those are the moments where we would benefit the most from eliminating an extra variable like board torsion.

I've talked to people who say they consciously twist the board with their feet, but I can't get my head around that. I've always thought of the board as torsion-free in the center with torsion robbing me of some edge angle at the top and tail. I'm picturing your crossbars mounted to cross-members attached just past where the tip and tail turn up, with a couple extra bolts drilled in from below.

How many degrees does an "average" alpine board twist in your jig if you decamber it to the same degrees as (for example) carving at a 45-degree edge angle?

Do you think you could make a placebo connecting bar? :) It would be very interesting to give HFP systems to riders with and without working t-bars (perhaps with sheaths over the bars to hide any visible differences), and then compare the feedback from their runs with "bar A" and "bar B" later when you (and they) know which bar is real. Same for the corner cushions, come to think of it. That would let you filter out any placebo effects from peoples' feedback.

[carvingchef]

this might be a little off topic but since the TD3 race version have been mentioned a few times on this thread and you can clearly see them in the photo

could you elaborate on them, how they differ from the regular TD3 and will they be available to non racers?

[bigdyno]

We spend a great deal of time and effort lining ourselves up perfectly on the board. Stance width, stance angle, cant and lift angles, boot forward lean, set-back, etc. We find this perfect "power" position that feels good and comfortable. Then you dive into a turn and all that alignment goes, well, out of alignment as you feet twist out of plane with each other. Lets say you get a twist angle of 2 to 3 degrees between your feet (totally made that up, have no data to support those numbers right now) then all your boot forward leans, lift and cants, stance widths, etc all go out of sync with each other.

I don't think this is an accurate statement Fin, here's why:

You set everything up when the board is stationary and level, you ride it when it is dynamic and off level. We set up the board to ride when it is deflecting and twisting. If we don't like how it rides, we change it until we do.

I have never riden with this type of system, I am still figuring out my set ups (you will refer to the e-mail I sent you about changing set up mid day) but I would think that some will like it and others may not. You learn to ride with the systems you have and develop your (our) skills to those systems. Perhaps if you started straight out of the box on a system like this it could be credited, perhaps not.

It reminds me of Yamaha and Bimota hub center steering exercises, they never went very far because they didn't handle "right". They did a much better job of neutral handling, but since everyone learns on telescopic forks, they learn to adjust the bike to the way this system reacts. Try riding a scooter (really the only place they are readily used, these days anyway) with a leading link front end. As soon as you hit the front brake, the thing stands up. If you are leaning into a curve, this will probably throw you for a loop because it is not the way you expect it to react.

So to sum up this drivel, I am excited to see this product and it's development. Maybe I will try it, maybe not. However, we set up our boards to the way they will handle under load, so saying that putting it under load throws everything off is an incorrect statement. It changes the relation of all the parts to each other from when they are stationary, but not "out of synch with each other". That's when you set them for.

[tex1230]

It reminds me of Yamaha and Bimota hub center steering exercises, they never went very far because they didn't handle "right".

Now you're gonna make me want that Tesi !!!!!!!

sorry...back to the HFP please!!!

[SunSurfer]

Sorothane? Did you mean Sorbothane?

http://www.sorbothane.com/index.php

[Arclite]

do I spot all regular riders? YES I DO! :D

Looks spiffy Fin, keep it up!

Any idea on pricing yet?

[SunSurfer]

If the suspended plate moves up and down then there must be some friction on the contact surfaces. This up and down movement will presumably happen with every turn. Given that those parts are both aluminium alloy, is the wear at this point going to be a problem?

[dantheman0177]

...on a solid, non-changing platform...

...the Torsion Bar may or may not be for you. This would be for you to decide.

I'm no engineering genius (not even an engineering gumby) but what you are trying to achieve here makes perfect sense to me. By eliminating as many mechanical variables as possible and providing more certainty with the set up, we should then be able to concentrate on obtaining the maximum performance from the physical variables (ie: body movements) without having to expend energy/thought/time/motion/etc to counteract inefficient equipment fluctuations.

I can see why the racers are so keen on these systems, although I'm not sure how much benefit would really be gained by a <20 days a year rider like me.

The current HFPs will spend the summer getting put through the paces with various teams at Mammoth Mnt, Mnt Hood, and possibly the southern hemisphere. Only after this will be able to make some good solid confirmations on the design and performance.

The again Fin, I'll probably be back in Oz by late August so I'd be more than happy to test that statement in the Southern Hemisphere for you if you want to provide access to the samples!

[tex1230]

Q for those that got to ride it with the torsion bar:

I have always thought of my feet as moving independently through a turn, kind of like clutch and gas pedal...initiate a toeside with the front foot toe , followed by the back foot, and front heel then rear heel for heelside...(And I learned that from a pretty well respected coach about 19 years ago, so I always assumed it was a common technique)

Does the torsion bar eliminate this feeling/will it require a totally new riding technique? Or is that independent motion pointless in modern race situations?

[forrest]

I am wondering if you were able to notice how the displacement of the Urethane pads at each end of the plate changed depending on the stress being applied to the board. For instance in your testing jig in pure bending did you find the pads closest to the tip and the tail of the board to experience more displacement than the pads located between the feet? Or while on a toe side did the pads toward the toe edge experience significant compression while the heel edge pads simply relaxed to free length so that in a turn only the pads on the engaged edge controlled the behavior?

If you are noticing that the pads experience unequal displacements in each state have you considered using different durometer pads to play with this difference. For example placing softer pads between the feet and harder pads towards the tip and tail to achieve similar displacements at each end of the plate? Or softer pads on the heel side of the plate to tune each edges response to the greater control afforded by the toes compared to the heels?

just a thought.

Seems a wicked interesting project you have going.

[mr_roboteye]

I think hangl and vist should be very worried right about now.

Another thought, you could put a little spring inside the spline itself IF you wanted to increase the camber of the board, this could be accentuated as well with snowstix attached to the front of the forward HFP and the back of the rear HFP. It is similar to a ski binding tyrolia had a few years ago that allowed you to tension the ski at the waist to increase or decrease camber. A totally tuneable system.

later,

Dave R.

[DjulezD]

This is such a cool thread !

Q for those that got to ride it with the torsion bar:

I have always thought of my feet as moving independently through a turn, kind of like clutch and gas pedal...initiate a toeside with the front foot toe , followed by the back foot, and front heel then rear heel for heelside...(And I learned that from a pretty well respected coach about 19 years ago, so I always assumed it was a common technique)

Does the torsion bar eliminate this feeling/will it require a totally new riding technique? Or is that independent motion pointless in modern race situations?

I assume the torsion bar will increase the level of reactivity from the board to these feet movements you describe. In a way, this is already the case with toe/heel lift. Turns are initiated quicker. Now if you have less torsion of the board at turn initiation as a result of the bar, this little "feet a-synchronicity" will just have to be milder to obtain the same effect. I can only see it as a gain.

[*Ace*]

I always thought that the turning radius of the board changes slightly based on how hard you flex it.

I think its easier to make a short radius board make long radius turns, versus trying to make a long radius board make short radius turns.

Am I wrong?

[Arclite]

My stomach hurts from looking at that kessler in the torture rack.

[Snowman]

No Ace your right on. But, keep in mind that you can shorten up a long board quite a bit. Just because something is built with a 16 17 18 meter scr doesnt mean you cant turn it quick. Turning a short board long requires the mastery of the float. Some people have a brutally hard time with this, usually its because they feel the need to be in a locked in turn all the time.

[NateW]

I always thought that the turning radius of the board changes slightly based on how hard you flex it.

I think its easier to make a short radius board make long radius turns, versus trying to make a long radius board make short radius turns.

Am I wrong?

Seems backward to me. I can make my long-scr boards turn tight by riding faster, leaning in farther, and angulating to get more edge angle (riding the sidewall, as someone put it). The only way I've found to get long-radius turns from a short-radius board is to revert to skidding turns, which isn't nearly as fun. :)

[KingCrimson]

To me, that picture just shows the rider keeping all his weight on a small portion of the board, since the kink from him pushing his knees together isn't actually in the snow.

The radius of the bend of the board dictates the turn radius, correct? Standing on the snow, I can pull my knees together and get the tail or nose to lift up. What stops us from doing this during a turn to impart a more dramatic bend in the board?

Sometimes I hit my knees together a the end of a turn, right when I finish closing it up. This isn't intentional, but it is however when the radius of such turns is much smaller towards the end. Thus this is when the board is decambered the most, when my knees touch. I never actively jam my knees together or closer for that matter, but if it is something that can be caused by the board flexing, it seems logical that the converse is also true.

EDIT: Where did Prokopiw's wheelie go?

[b0ardski]

Isn't the torsion bar's existence proof that twist happens?

Not being a racer I prefer wider boards that allow me to influence the torsional flex so I would opt for a barless funplate system.

also was thinking a softer elastomer at the toe and heel corners of the plate with stiffer pads at the instep corners where less direct pressure is applied, does that make sense?

[Jack M]

I always thought that the turning radius of the board changes slightly based on how hard you flex it.

I think its easier to make a short radius board make long radius turns, versus trying to make a long radius board make short radius turns.

Am I wrong?

You can get away with it on softer snow. However on hard snow and ice where you're looking to conserve every bit of edge hold you can get, it's not adviseable.

[GeoffV]

Fin,

This is great stuff man. It' pretty cool that we are able to read and watch your HFP creation as you test, modify and test again. Thanks for keeping BOL in the loop on this.

I'm very curious how this system will work for non-racers. What is the benefit we can get out of a system like this? Is it even necessary if you don't race, etc.

[Steve Prokopiw]

:lol:

Thats strange, I think its totally adviseable. Its what might be refered to as "finesse".

If Jack says so.

[Michael Pukas]

[quote name=fin

GOD DAMN he's ugly in the morning!

[quote name=fin

I can see the torsion bar being personal preference - whether or not you want to be able to twist the board between your feet for what ever reason is up to you.

Until Fin told me his thoughts on what a plate system actually does - mass and height - I always thought one of the main reasons for a plate was transferring energy to the edge of a board.

The HFP addresses many factors I've had in the back of my head for along time (and never wanted to niggle Fin about). The main one is the base plate of the TD3 vs the base plate of the HFP - the HFP plate is symmetrical and wide - it spreads the load/forces farther out to the edge, equally. The TD3 base plate is 3-sided and much smaller in size. It does not spread the load/forces as equally nor spread them out as far along the edge nearly as much. Does this really matter? I'm not sure without riding both back to back, but just by looking at this pic it makes sense to me that the HFP is going to more evenly and efficiently transfer energy from boots to binding to board.

(Sorry if the quoted pics didn't post right). mpp

[fin]

Sunsurfer: correct, edit made, it is Sorbothane.

Bigdyno: I dig my trailing-link front end! Yea, those are Italian racing shocks on that sweet ride. Holds nice when I wrap that puppy up to 48 mph.