Chronicles of the Happy Fun Plate at the Bomber Factory

[big mario]

Fin,

When does your mad scientist lab coat, pocket protecter, and horn rim glasses arrive, or are you skipping right to the evil genius underground lair in the volcano complete with red self-destruct button mode?

Love the innovation, the humor and the peek behind the curtain,

mario

[fin]

Bordy: ha, you'll have to talk to Dustin T. and Ben Fairchild on those set-ups, that is how they came to me. Of course they probably did not read the instructions. Oh yea...;)

Bigdyno: I love that active suspension stuff. I am not the biggest knowledge base of that level of racing but I believe a lot of those innovations where banned? Active wings, ground effects, dual tires, forced induction, etc. I think the F1 level racing world has its list of things that are "too good". Funny how we bag on NASCAR because of its resistance to new ideas (for gods sake, they run carburetors!) but even F1 has its boundaries. And I hope to never be caught wearing pants like that guy in the vid.

Bjvircks: I also love that smell of coolant. When I walk into a shop and smell that I know stuff gets done there. Dang, I was going to ask if your company was hiring?

And the dogs have all been trained to "address" any and all bean-counters and sweaty lawyers.

Your analogy of what can happen to a big engineering company is something I have heard from other engineering friends of mine in big business. I have one buddy at Boeing and the stories he tells of the sole-sucking, don't achieve, keep your head down, attitude is just terrifying. You can also see the inverse of this as some (certainly not all) of the innovations come from the smaller sector of the engineering world.

The "bar" in the middle and in-between the plates actually has a few possible purposes. Once again as we get to that I will explain. But it is an aspect that is VERY intriguing and might make the system.

Bobdea: agree, there might be some aspects of a sub-plate system that could carry over into BX. I don't see why not? From what I can tell those guy/gals get the crap beat out of them while going down the course so why not try to ease that mechanically? I'll chat with PhilFell as he is currently training some very high level BX racers at this point.

Miltie: excellent job with the link! Thank you. Yet another sub-plate system has been found. Here is the link Miltie sent me: http://www.surfeye.com/tuneup/ACTIVE.htm Actually, I have seen this system on a Japanese racer who came into the shop last Fall. Very well made and designed. My only concern is it does something that I question is a benefit. It induces a spring force when the board decambers by those little springs you see inside the plate. So basically they are adding to the already huge leaf spring we call a snowboard. Necessary? I don't know. I have talked to Sean at Donek and a few racers and the thought is if you have to increase the firmness of the board this should be done with the board not the addition of springs. But I reserve the right to be wrong on this, we'll find out.

Nekdut: I did not really include the Tinkler system in the list as that upper plate he uses is an integral part of the board it is attached to. Some might even call this a dual-core snowboard. In other words they are built to work together. I believe if you somehow bolted that upper plate to a "regular" board it would make it crazy stiff. What his system does (as far as I can see, please let us know otherwise Tinkler I don't want to misrepresent your ideas) is use friction of the upper and lower to create a dampening effect. Atomic skis has a line out that has a very similar set-up that they call a Double Deck Ski: http://www.atomicsnow.com/doubledeck/#/en/Products/D2-Vario-Cut/-/D2-DOUBLEDECK/

Willow 15: no idea on cost at this point or even if it will be available soon. I know that is a sucky answer considering all this information on it, but I just wanted to show people how we go about making our products here. Whether this product makes it or not is yet to be determined. Personally I think this has some serious potential and the goal is to test next week and find out. But there is a ton of more work to be done. Fingers crossed.

Carvedog: I do have a prediction of weight on the entire system based from the computer. But I am going to keep that to myself until the end of this build so we can all see the conclusion. However, that said I would hope I can get around 4lbs for the whole system. Not a huge savings over the others but it is something. Might also have a "lighter" version for women and Bordy.

Jack: Yea, I can see about a YouTube vid. Might just do on my pic camera and keep it low res.

I do love that classic saying on "pick two". My other favorite was a bike add where it claimed "As strong as my wife but light as my girlfriend"

Today we make the Center Disks. What I have done is design this one around the current Center Disk for the TD3 with some simple modifications. Should work fine for this test. There will be two versions of the Center Disk, a fixed and a movable. Top pic is the fixed, bottom the movable:

P.S. Call your Mom today and thank her for, well, life.

[pow4ever]

very nice!!!

the middle bar would be fitted with springs like the BTS; so it can be tune to the flex/damping desired?

instead of spring maybe some sort of coilover?

or

something similar to GM's magnetic ride control :) every one will need to carry a 12v battery but it's worth it.

or

Head's CHIP techonlogy

Thank you for keeping us in the loop.

I would think such a system be it vist/Hangle /BHFP. To get the most out of system; the snowboard maker will need to made/design for it

Is there a particular board maker you are working with on this project?

To save even more weight; maybe a fusion of the TD3/BHFP? Seems like one can elimated some part if you don't need to design it to work with all plate binding system out there.

Thanks again!!!

David

--

David

[Corey]

How about a fluid-filled shock spanning the two plates? That would add a whole new definition for damping! You could adjust a knob to change the damping effect too. Of course, it sucks because:

-would need to be a large diameter version to work with the relatively small movements, or a bell-crank to amplify the displacement

-stepping on it would break it

-HEAVY!

Ok, forget that idea.

I'm extremely envious of having a mill to play with, though the screwdriver and metric crescent wrench are nice too. Thanks for the great thread showing the design/build process!

By the way: You're not fooling us... There's no way you'd use a phillips screw on a Bomber product. Heck, anything other than a 5mm hex-headed bolt is a bit out of character!

[bigdyno]

I had intended to link my comment to a web page outlining the suspension fluid that is modified by electric current to vary the viscosity. It was late and my brain was in park. Or you could just mix up some water and corn starch, what ever your development budget can bear.

[queequeg]

Fin - This is totally fascinating and super cool! Thank you for posting! I have begun depositing pennies in my piggy bank.

[NateW]

Also, every time a human touches a part there is chance for error. That is why I hire dogs.

That's genius. That's the kind of innovation that keeps Bomber on top.

Also, have you considered making the big plate out of HDPE?

Then it doesn't matter if it bends, because it will bend back.

EDIT: nevermind, I just realized that would be totally inadequate where the crossbar / shock-absorber thing mounts.

[Arclite]

Can we get a youtube of the End Mill in action?

Can that main plate double as a flat-screen tv wall mount?

yes!

and yes, I'm sure someone will find a way to do so. :lol:

So i keep hearing CNC machine....what exactly does CNC stand for?

[*Ace*]

CNC = computer numerical controlled

[Arclite]

CNC = computer numerical controlled

AHA! :D

[crazyTKDsquirrel]

*puts flame suit on*

Any estimate on price yet? :o

[SEJ]

Cool stuff Fin! The CNC looks just like the one I got at Harbor Freight. The other tools I'm not familiar with.

[tex1230]

Cool stuff Fin! The CNC looks just like the one I got at Harbor Freight. The other tools I'm not familiar with.

did you get the free shipping?

[fin]

Pow4ever: yes, the "bar" can be used for many purposes that I will work on down the road. Right now it will have two purposes that I will show soon.

Yes, working with Sean at Donek right now as he is working VERY hard at proto-typing a new generation of Donek's. So him and I have been hanging out a lot up at A-Basin last few weeks. What you are going to see from Donek next season will be amazing. However, my goal is to make a system that will work on any current snowboard.

Absolutely going to integrate the TD3 into this design. It will be obvious how very soon. But this alone will same a bunch of weight. However, it will also work with all 4 hole bindings.

Corey: was wondering when you would chime in! Your ideas you showed at the SES where excellent. Still something I would like to try. However, in a post or two I will be showing you how the system "floats" and this will give you a similar effect as to what you wanted in your idea. I think you will like it.

And the screw driver is actually a very rare one as it is metric AND left handed.

NateW: good idea with the HDPE but as you will soon see we will have another way to "flex" and push back.

*Ace*: Ha, I always wondered what CNC stood for. Thanks! I just told some ladies at this party last night about this project and they said "BFD". What does that stand for?

crazyTKDsquirrel: no price as it is hard to price something that does not exist yet.

I am so with you on the dampener between the feet guys, but step at a time. We are already trying all kinds of new wacky stuff here we have to inch towards it to see what really makes the difference. But the good news is I am making this system expandable and adaptable to more ideas down the road. So more to come after this version.

SEJ: Harbor Freight rules! Best tools ever. I just bought my grand-ma a dialysis machine there and she loves it.

_______________________________________________________________

Started this yesterday (Sunday) but was distracted with a friend who wanted to work on his Subaru WRX and another friend who wanted to go to the rifle range and try a new toy. These guys SO need to get married.

Back to cutting. We are going to make the Center Disk as shown in the previous solid model picture. Holding things that are round in a vice is always more challenging then something flat sided. So what I did was cut some machinable jaws on the vice to hold the current TD3 center disk upside down. Here are the jaws after cutting:

Then the center disk before cuts made

Center disk after cuts made. Only used one tool, 1/2" carbide EM to do this.

As you can see the center disk now has flat sides. What it now does is go inside the Main Plate creating a "keyed" interface that only allows the Main Plate to move up/down or tilt side to side. But the Main Plate cannot rotate or slide forward and back. I also made two slightly different versions of the Center Disk where I cut down the inside radius portion so that when it is inserted into the Main Plate it ONLY allows the Main Plate to slide back and forth (length wise on the board) a certain distance. More to come on this. The point is the Center Disk now captures the Main Plate and lets the Main Plate hover above the snowboard about 5mm. So how are we going to control the motion of this Main Plate?

There are two ways we are going to try on this: a elastomer based system and a compression spring system. Lets start with the elastomer one first.

[crucible]

Now THAT's something that I might buy with my own money....

The Hangl and Vist plate systems looked very crude and brutish- not that I'm familiar with their performance characteristics on a race course- but I've always felt that there was room for improvement from a weight savings and ergonomic standpoint.

In a perfect world, these systems would also bolt straight onto the existing insert packs that are on standard boards as well...

George

[fin]

We need to make several elastomer suspension pads out of this material I have from other projects. These are sheets of Urethane in various durometers.

We need to make round disks from this that are 40mm in diameter. Now I could just use a knife and try my best to get a nice round circle, but I just know they will look like I made them with a fire-axe after several cocktails. So we are going to make a simple punch to create these pads.

First we start with a chuck of round steel I had. This is some mild steel but seeing as all we are punching is urethane it does not need to be super tough steel.

This is the lathe we will use I got about 3 years ago and cannot image working without it. Lathes do scare me a bit as the part is now spinning around and not the tool. So you want to make sure to not wear cuffed long sleeve shirts, gold chains and bracelets, and defiantly keep the Fabio hair back.

Blank in the chuck

First thing we need to do is face down the end of the blank so the end is nice and flush and clean.

Part after facing

Now we need to take the out side diameter down to the 40mm we want. Here is the part after taking the OD down

Now we need to remove material from the center. First we start with small drill.

Then big-assed drill

The we have enough room to get a boring bar in there and finish the ID to what we want. I am getting real close here as we want that wall thickness to be pretty thin so work as a punch. Think cookie cutter.

The final cut is I put a nice 60 degree edge on the end giving the punch a nice sharp edge.

Punch done and ready to go

Take our material, put it in our hydraulic press with the punch

And create some 40mm diameter urethane pads

We are going to start with two different durometers of pads for now. You can see the cut-out sheet in the back (black)

OK, I don't know about you but we now have enough parts to assemble a complete lower assembly. Time to make something that looks like something!

[tex1230]

The final cut is I put a nice 60 degree edge on the end giving the punch a nice sharp edge.

can you put an edge on my board like that?

[fin]

If you look at the first pics of the Main Plate you will see 41mm diameter (gives us a 1mm clearance on the pad) pockets on the underside of the Main Plate

These are designed to hold and capture the Suspension Pads we just made as seen here

No flip this over, insert the Center Disk, and install the four mounting screws into the board. This is what you get

We now have a fully suspended plate mounted to a snowboard. Not only that but we can control the motion of the plate by changing the pads OR in a totally different way which we will work on next. The total travel of the system is 5mm as of designed now. We might have to change this.

We have also created a floating system that does not (or severally minimizes) put a flat-spot on the board. Even though we have a large contact area to push down with (good distribution of forces) we are still allowing the board to flex under the Main Plate. Yes, those Pads will not slide on the board (urethane is very sticky) but they do experience shear (think hula dancers hips). After measure the total distance of travel under a plate of this size the pads have more then enough capacity in shear to allow the board to flex naturally.

One aspect of a suspension system that I find important is pre-load. When we install this system on a snowboard it is important that we preload those suspension pads. We did this by making the pads about 1mm taller then the space they occupy. So when we install the screws in the Center Disk they compress (or pre-load) the pads 1mm. Why do you want pre-load? This gets the spring (or in our case a pad acting as a spring) started so you are not starting at zero force. If you start at zero force you begin with a resistance of zero and then it spikes to the initial start force of the spring. Not very liner feedback or feel. And pre-load lets you tune the starting force of the system. We could shim the pads more or less to add or remove pre-load to our tastes. Also pre-load would be good if we had travel in the other direction (away from the board) but we don't in this case. And finally we are bolt all this down on a very NOT flat surface (top of a snowboard), so this pre-load lets the system conform to the top of the board.

You can see in this terribly focused picture the gap between the bottom of the Center Disk and the snowboard. This is our pre-load distance

So here is a shot of two Lower Assemblies mounted on my Prior 2010 177. One has the soft pads (yellow) and the other the harder pads (black)

So far so good and I am very happy with the fit and finish so far. But we are not done yet, not even close. More to come.........

[tex1230]

my typical smartass comments aside, this is the coolest thing on this board in years. keep progressing and keep the TR going!

[bobdea]

certainly the most bling riser plate out there so far.

[bobdea]

product names?

for some reason I say Fingl plate because it makes me smile

nice to see the build process, actually makes the whole concept much more understandable to the layman

[Arclite]

So far so good and I am very happy with the fit and finish so far. But we are not done yet, not even close. More to come.........

Needs more blinking lights!

[Corey]

for some reason I say Fingl plate because it makes me smile

Awesome!

Nothing looks as hot as freshly milled aluminum. :drool:

[noschoolrider]

product names?

How about <b>B</b>omber <b>A</b>ctive <b>D</b>ampening <b>A</b>djustable <b>S</b>uspension <b>S</b>ystem or "<b>BAD ASS</b>"

[nekdut]

This looks beyond awesome, but I am still trying to understand how this system works. Where is the movement/dampening movement axis/plane? Right now to me, it looks like a widened base plate and bigger elastomers for the existing TD2/3 system. Can you elaborate a bit? Does it provide the independent flex that Hangls/Vists provide or am I just looking at this wrong? :)