tex1230 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Is the object here simply to eliminate the dead spot under the bindings, or is there supposed to be some fore/aft movement of the binding? If there is supposed to be fore/aft movement, how tight is that center disc in the hole? how much movement will it allow? You addressed the "shear" of the elastomer plugs, but if you've got metal on metal with no room for movement in the center, how would the plate float in that direction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Ace* Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Looks pretty awesome Fin, keep up the good work man. As far as BFD...not sure, but I think this is what they are talking about. BFD, or Binary File Descript Could also mean "Big F*cking Deal". Maybe these chicks weren't diggin' your jive talk. My two cents about the bar between the feet. I like the idea of the dampner between the feet. I think you need a board that is as Shredd Gruumer puts it, "soft between the feet". That allows you to control the rate of flex of the board without fighting the board's natural flex. You could even go to the next step and tie the plates under the bindings to plates on the nose and tail of the board. Having dampners between each plate would allow you to independently control the flex rate of each section of the board throught the entire board. Thoughts? When are you going to leak the TD3 Race? I am interested to see what people are going to say about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 This continues to be ridiculously exciting and totally awesome. I posted this before and then redacted ... but since everyone is talking about the little bar between the feet: any chance that this could be used to further limit torsional flex, by using a square rather than a round piston ... or some combination of the two with a spring for controlled resistance, such that you could control the amount of torsional flex permitted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 I think you should install one of those main plates in your WRX in place of the steering wheel. You know, Kitt style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fastskiguy Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 LOL, I think this thread is going to help sales but I just want to say THANKS for taking us along the development process :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casanovaracing Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Crap! Am I going to have to snowboard again this year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arclite Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 I think you should install one of those main plates in your WRX in place of the steering wheel. You know, Kitt style. With TD3's and everything! Maybe even a Track 700 with BTS attached. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateW Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 can you put an edge on my board like that? Why you want a 2cm carving radius? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateW Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 I vote for "BFD," to be marketed as "Bomber Flex Device." We all know what it really means. I just told some ladies at this party last night about this project and they said "BFD". What does that stand for? Well, most of us do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateW Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 (post 3 of 3) I'd like to see a layer of urethane between the center disk and the main plate, so it can float in either direction. Seems to me that most of the time, any vibrations in the board go are going to straight into the boots due to the metal-to-metal interface there. Or is that where the springs come in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateW Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 (post 4 of 3) I am picturing wings on either side of the center disk, with crescents of urethane that press down on the main plate. Nothing else presses down on the main plate. Can the center disk be strong enough for that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadBrad Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Cool stuff! Fin, do you get requests to do design and manufacturing outside of the snowboard community? I just visited a local company (in Maryland) that builds underwater vehicles and related systems, but they also have done interesting projects for others like the Smithsonian and Disney. I asked how they market that work, and they said that the customers just call them. I guess it is known that they do design and manufacturing of precision systems. Similarly, I have an uncle that owns machine shops that make precision components for the oil industry, but he has expanded into other area like making cylinder heads for racecars. It seems that if you can do CAD/CAM and have a CNC milling machine there are lots of opportunites for lucrative work. Regarding the bar between the plates, where do you put your foot when getting off the lift? Do we all need to learn to balance on one foot? Keep up the great work, and thanks for sharing the process with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shred Gruumer Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Ready.. "FINGRS 1" Fin Gravity Response System 1.. Whats else could it mean... They do look like a fingers of a Palm though!!. haa.. "BSA" Blumpkin Suspension Apparatus:nono: RSS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 (post 3 of 3)I'd like to see a layer of urethane between the center disk and the main plate, so it can float in either direction. I think this would simply be more of a good thing, but... Seems to me that most of the time, any vibrations in the board go are going to straight into the boots due to the metal-to-metal interface there. Vibrations originating from the snow impacting the board have to travel from the board to the rider in an upward direction. They have to compress the elastomer to get through to the foot. That is why the TD2-3 works. If what you said was true, there would be no difference in feel between the TD1 and the 2-3. That's not the same scenario as say, hitting the top of the board with a hammer, which would pull down on the center disk, which would pull down on the cant disk. In that case there is no elastomer in the middle of the force path. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fin Posted May 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Nekdut: you are mostly correct, in this iteration it is a large, wide, tall version of the current TD3 lower assembly. The differences are the total height is much taller and the reason is to allow much more travel of the system. Also, it cannot rotate like the TD3 Cants disk as that will be left to the new cant disk we will make later. The real reason for this design is to accommodate the new Spring Pods we will build next. For that I needed this wide and tall foot print. When you flex the board you can see and feel the ends of the plate move towards the top sheet of the deck allowing the board to flex under the plate. I need to see if I can take a picture of this effect as it is hard to see. This means the pads are compressing and letting the board flex underneath. The upcoming Spring Pods will take this to the next level. Text1230: right now all we are doing is eliminating the dead spot on the snowboard. The next part will come soon (after the Spring Pod creation) and then we tie everything together. Hold tight it is coming! *Ace*: "That allows you to control the rate of flex of the board without fighting the board's natural flex". This has always been my goal. It is a game I play with the board manufacturer, I want to add all sort of mechanical fanciness but at the same time I want to not adversely effect what the board manufacturer intended the board to do. So how far do we go as far as effecting the flex of the board? I don't know, but this system will find out some of the limits of what we should or should not do to a boards natural flex. TD3 Race: yea, I need to get some photos of that out. Queequeg: "any chance that this could be used to further limit torsional flex”. Ah ha, your on to me. This will be coming when we work on the “Torsion Bar” system. I have something better then a square interface for this. Back to the project.... We are going to make the Spring Pods These are direct replacements for the Suspension Pads you saw before. So why an actual spring versus a urethane pad? Lets talk: Springs are very linear in response. In other words, for each unit of displacement (amount squished) you get a given amount of resistance. Springs are not as temperature dependant as urethane. The urethane will get harder and softer depending on the temperature. Essentially a spring will not care what temp it is, it will always feel the same. Spring are easy and convenient to engineer. Need more or less spring rate? Easy, try “this” spring. I have about five version of stock springs I can select for this application and more if we had custom made. But I don’t think it will come to that. Springs allow for way more travel then urethane. As some of you might remember urethane springs where tried in the mountain bike suspension industry a long time ago. They had little travel, got hard when cold, and generally broke down over time. Just not a good application. I don’t want to say urethane is bad for what we are doing but by the numbers a spring should have some huge benefits we can take advantage of. Of course I reserve the right to be completely wrong on this and we may just pogo down the hill like a Cadillac with its shocks blown! First we will make the Spring Hat We start with a solid bar of 1.5” diameter aluminum This bar just fits in the through spindle of my lathe so I can put the whole thing in and feed out as I make each part We take down the outside to the basic shape Then we drill a through hole Put a nice chamfer on the end So how do we cut the piece off? We use a tool called a “pick-off” tool. Seen here The part then just falls to the pan of the lathe and here it is done Keep in mind this is just Op1, we still need to come into the back side and create a counter bore that will allow the spring to fit. Done here with a boring bar. I don’t want to use a drill as it will leave a chamfer at the end of the counter bore when we want a nice flush surface for the end of the spring to compress against. A boring bar lets us do this and it is also much more precise OK, after making 16 of these I am officially sick of the staring at the lathe. This is why I like robots. Now we need to make the Spring Foot. This is a small piece made out of Delrin bar. Delrin is fantastic to work with as it is VERY machinable. I can make cuts twice as deep and fast as with aluminum. And it is very strong and self lubricating. Here is the bar in the lathe and I have already made the outside profile cuts Chamfer the ends And then pick it off And here is what we have So with all parts done for the Spring Pods here is how it goes together The different color springs are different rates. Right now I only have two versions of this spring to test These Pods are inserted into the Main Plate via the same counter bore on the back that the Pads fit into. There is no need to attach or fasten anything as all the Spring Pods are captures by the Main Plate which is captured by the Center disk. Keeps it simple. All said and done here is the system attached to a snowboard. Same as the Suspension Pads, the entire system sees about 1mm of preload when you install it and the total travel the Mian Plate can move is 5mm. The Delrin Spring Feet have a very specific purpose. They allow the Spring Pods to slide across the board when the board is decambered. The Delrin on the top surface of a snowboard is very slick so there is no binding there. Without this movement you would induce some tension in the system with every turn as well as dig a hole into the top sheet of the snowboard. I gotta run because if I am going to make it on the snow tomorrow I need to get back at this. Next we make the Torsion Bar system and the Cant Disks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Vibrations originating from the snow impacting the board have to travel from the board to the rider in an upward direction. They have to compress the elastomer to get through to the foot. Ahh, but what happens after the elastomer compresses? It rebounds and eventually makes metal-to-metal impact. Granted, this generates a pulling-type vibration, but your feet still feel it. Typical vibration isolation mounts have the vibration source fully isolated in both directions. The simplest way to do this is to have a bolt pass through a plate with rubber washers above and below the plate. This way the plate can move up and down without making metal-to-metal contact. Because the TD2/3 and this new plate have some preload, 100% of the small-frequency vibrations are transmitted from the board to the binding until there is adequate downward force to squish the elastomer enough to separate the metal-to-metal contact. Then all vibrations must travel through the elastomers and are somewhat damped out by them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 is there anything preventing the metal main plate from colliding with the topsheet of the board? can the suspension "bottom out"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrus the virus Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Fin, I think you are on a very good way to make a new masterpiece! but in should be availlable for all types of bindings! Maybe you have an idea to adapt all the other stuff! I would prefer the rubber type i think! A little bit more travel would be helpfull I think! Biggest respect, regards Frank! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Is there any concern for the possibility of the springs getting jammed up with frozen snow? Or would the forces acting upon/within the springs be sufficient to prevent any amount of snow building up in there from setting up and becoming a problem? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinecure Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 The torsion bar looks like it will take the place of a stomp pad and boot ice scraper. Cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Fin, I think you are on a very good way to make a new masterpiece! but in should be availlable for all types of bindings! I believe Fin said it would be compatible with all 4-hole bindings Lighter: or at least lighter then the current ones. But no way around it, it will add mass to the system Low Height: as low as we can get and then give the ability of the user to raise if wanted Minimize board "dead-spot" under system Active Suspension Ease of removal and install Uses current standard 4 hole patterned snowboards Option for integration with our current TD3 binding as well as woking with any 4 hole plate binding Tunable in multiple ways to fit the riders needs (more on this later) Blinking lights and extra-shinny bits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Uses current standard 4 hole patterned snowboards Option for integration with our current TD3 binding as well as woking with any 4 hole plate binding This is on first message Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nekdut Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Delrin. Awesome material! Any issues with snow or cold though? Will it remain slick in the cold and on all types of topsheets? Donek's gummy topsheets (04+) come to mind as possible issue potentially? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjvircks Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 I knew it ! I knew it ! I knew it ! As soon as you posted the the first image of the plates on the board and I saw a difference between the top and bottom plates... I figured the big ones were a spring in a canister. (well duh... he posted pictures of all the raw parts, springs included). Very clever using the same holes in the plate so one plate works both places. Carbon loaded delrin (acetal) is a great material. I suspect natural delrin would work every bit as well, but wouldn't look as cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arclite Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Wouldn't the springs stick out and touch the boot depending on the angle? Making lower angles impossible? like before using the suspension plate, you had the bindings at 60-55, and then the boots touch the spring, so you have to ride at 70-65? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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