Chronicles of the Happy Fun Plate at the Bomber Factory

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

I couldn't aggree more Sean.

I often find that folks have found their "Magic Board" (meaning works well for them) and they are in conflict because those around them are suggesting that the board is not (insert various issues here). Typically it is "Old" or "not a popular brand" or what ever. However, it work for the riders style, weight and ability.

Hense, use what works, try more boards and NEVER sell your "Magic" board before you are certain your new board works as well or better.

Next, ADAPT!!! It is a skill set of it's own. Not everyone has that option. Limited time on snow etc. If you do, try different things when you get the chance. Moving from skis to snowboards to tele to soft to hard developes the ability to quickly sort out what is going on and them adapting to it.

Eventually you become something closer to the R & D riders that are experts in adaption. Anyone remember a photo posted of a guy with two different boots on , two different bindings , gloves, etc. Pretty fun, but the guy ripped everything!!!

Enjoy!!

[tinks]

Sean, I agree with what you have said. I have seen Thorndike win races by extreme manipulation and reshaping at gates that if he had not the ability he would not have made the gate and not have won.

I also agree with Snowman and his understanding from his time on the hill and feel.

It is good for riders to hear this talked about; it is a big part of the feel one has for a turn.

Tinks.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

That second shot above makes me hurt for that board! There is also some pretty crazy board flex going on here, look closely:

Bendy Board

[b0ardski]

This is the best tech thread ever, it should be stickied.

Can't wait to see the podium dominace of the all american finplatetinkstixdonekmetal,

boots are next??

great board pic Bryan, new background

[Jack M]

Sean, 10 to 20? That's part of my point... board builders have had to go back to square one and scrap all existing designs and tooling if they want to chase Kessler... why? After riding a "K-type" shape last year I was struck by how cleanly the board seemed to "slice" through the snow, and the resulting edge hold and less speed loss. I believe this is due to both the decambered nose, and the blended sidecut (~14m nose, 17m tail). I think these help the board make a more natural, radial arc. Bryan's closeup picture in this thread is perfect evidence of a traditional board plowing the nose and kinking in the middle. Notice how the nose is causing the front of the board to bend up abruptly while the tail remains practically straight.

I was thinking about the blended radii tapered race boards and I'm wondering if part of the reason they do so well is that when the rider is in the middle and end of the turn with weight mostly on the back foot, the tail of the board decambers more than the nose. Therefore a shorter raidus in the front of the board would make sense. This also jives with how these boards don't need to be ridden so aggressively forward at turn initiation.

Also, aren't the racers saying they like using Vist etc plates partly because they reduce twist between the feet? This would make me think there aren't many benefits to pedaling.

[tinks]

Jack, You crack me up. I don't know why you make assumptions based on such limited info. and for all your analytical skills you miss so much. The board is three years old; it has a 13m- 16m side cut and has a decambered nose not as extreme as I make today but contact is back of effective edge . The board was made for Anton Pogue, but was way too stiff. The base board is Titanal with a carbon Tinkler Slider Plate. The reason the non-active tail edge looks straight is it has pressure from the highly cambered Snow Stix plate arm. I assure you the active edge is clean and curved. Not too many riders could even flex this beast; it's why the photo is so unique. The conditions are soft fresh groom.

Tinks.

[KingCrimson]

Tinks- There's no need to get defensive, Jack was just pointing out that it's an older board board without a large amount decamber, which is more or less what you just repeated.

What I think he was trying to say is that Bryan is putting all his work into the nose to make the board bend, and not getting any "turn" out of the tail, whereas a newer shape board wouldn't necessitate riding that way. If I'm not mistaken, this would mean that the "active edge" as you referred to it would be longer, right?

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

What I think he was trying to say is that Bryan is putting all his work into the nose to make the board bend, and not getting any "turn" out of the tail, whereas a newer shape board wouldn't necessitate riding that way.

Typically I ride as close to centered as I can, there are without doubt slight shifts that are automatic and hard to capture in a snap shot. There are some boards from my past that needed to be loaded more in the nose, but most if not all the Tinkler boards are very comfortable in "Center". Just a guess, but another few inches to a foot and the board would be even more rounded. I think it is safe to say the edge was actively in use :)

PS, I do like the flex of the Tinkler TNT system boards though!

[Donek]

Sean, 10 to 20? That's part of my point... board builders have had to go back to square one and scrap all existing designs and tooling if they want to chase Kessler... why? After riding a "K-type" shape last year I was struck by how cleanly the board seemed to "slice" through the snow, and the resulting edge hold and less speed loss. I believe this is due to both the decambered nose, and the blended sidecut (~14m nose, 17m tail). I think these help the board make a more natural, radial arc. Bryan's closeup picture in this thread is perfect evidence of a traditional board plowing the nose and kinking in the middle. Notice how the nose is causing the front of the board to bend up abruptly while the tail remains practically straight.

I was thinking about the blended radii tapered race boards and I'm wondering if part of the reason they do so well is that when the rider is in the middle and end of the turn with weight mostly on the back foot, the tail of the board decambers more than the nose. Therefore a shorter raidus in the front of the board would make sense. This also jives with how these boards don't need to be ridden so aggressively forward at turn initiation.

Also, aren't the racers saying they like using Vist etc plates partly because they reduce twist between the feet? This would make me think there aren't many benefits to pedaling.

As I said, at higher levels I think the use of twisting the board is a little less certain. Racers definitely have made the claim that the plate systems reduce the twisting nature of the boards. Having examined both existing plates systems a lot of people felt the degree to which they limit such behavior is minimal. This is the primary reason Fin chose to try locking it completely. Given the current race styles, I think the coaches are training riders to not twist the board. That does not mean it doesn't happen, hasn't been prevalent in the past, or won't work for certain styles.

Everyone I've talked to has indicated that Kessler simply looked at what worked with ski racing and adapted it to snowboards. In other words, we've gone full circle. Skiing copied snowboarding and now snowboarding is copying skiing.

I'm currently hesitant to discuss specifics of some of the shape prototyping as I don't wish to influence the outcome of testing that's being done by the racers. I will say that I believe a good portion of the shaping changes are a direct result of how the metal influences board performance. If boards were being made out of glass, some of the changes would not be there or would be less damatic. The big question for me is, "Is it possible to generate the same result with a glass board?" The problem with asking such a question becomes, "Is it economically viable to even explore the answers to that question given the momentum of metal construction?" I'm sure I will ponder this and even play with it in the future, but people simply want metal these days. I've learned so much in the last few weeks, it will undoubtedly influence how I approach future glass constructions.

I think the primary reason the new shapes are working well is because they look at how to leverage the riders dynamics for better speed. As long as a recreational rider mimics these dynamics, they will feel the board is an improvement. It's not necessarily a completely new approach, it just looks at it from a different perspective. As a result, I wouldn't say it's back to square one, it's just a split in the road that wasn't taken in the past. I didn't have to scrap anything. I had to create some new formulas and make some adjustments to tooling, but the changes were not that difficult to explore.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

This is the best tech thread ever, it should be stickied.

Can't wait to see the podium dominace of the all american finplatetinkstixdonekmetal,

boots are next??

great board pic Bryan, new background

Mike Tinkler built these carbon fiber custom boot shells for Tyler J.

[bobdea]

Everyone I've talked to has indicated that Kessler simply looked at what worked with ski racing and adapted it to snowboards. In other words, we've gone full circle. Skiing copied snowboarding and now snowboarding is copying skiing.

thank you!

some folk got high and mighty when I said pretty much the same thing.

as for Bryan's post look at Jack's board, the donek. looks like it's augering off the nose rise. I don't see that as much in the second picture.

if you look closely, that donek is bending in front of the binding and the other picture it is as well but quite a bit more evenly.

I think that right there says something.

Tinks, am I understanding you correctly in that you're saying that the picture of your board is showing something that it rarely does?

[Jack M]

no other response right now than to say that Bryan is one ripping carver. not just saying that from pics, I've seen him in person.

one question though for tinks, why do you use Texalium? just wondering, i haven't been able to find much info on it being a super-material like Vectran or Titanal or something.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

no other response right now than to say that Bryan is one ripping carver. not just saying that from pics, I've seen him in person.

one question though for tinks, why do you use Texalium? just wondering, i haven't been able to find much info on it being a super-material like Vectran or Titanal or something.

Thanks Jack.

Keep in mind Texalium is just one of many materials used.

Various glass patterns, carbon fiber, metals, etc

Hand cut glued select cores etc.

Mike will do a better job of answering the "Why"

The "Magic" is in the way the cores are shaped to match sidecut and materials. But then you know that.

silver texalium which is a material which is similar to carbon fiber in strength and lightness but uses glass fibers which are power coated with aluminum

another reference-Compared to graphite, it's more durable. Compared to fiberglass, it's lighter.

[dantheman0177]

PS, I do like the flex of the Tinkler TNT system boards though!

Sort of back on topic, how do you guys think a system like the HFP will react to a board like the TNT where the two edges flex independently?

I can see the benefits of independent edge flex (TNT) and the benefits of the HFP as described by Fin, but I can't quite grasp how they could co-exist.

I don't know a great deal about all this stuff, but it is really interesting to me, hence what might seem obvious questions.

[Ray]

Mike Tinkler built these carbon fiber custom boot shells for Tyler J.

What was the reason(s) for building the Carbon boot shells? I have to assume it took some time and effort, so my guess is there must be a strong reason behind it. ??? Thanks!

[MUD]

What was the reason(s) for building the Carbon boot shells? I have to assume it took some time and effort, so my guess is there must be a strong reason behind it. ??? Thanks!

Stiffness.

[BlueB]

Stiffness.

And repeating the shape of customized (blown) shell, if need be.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Sort of back on topic, how do you guys think a system like the HFP will react to a board like the TNT where the two edges flex independently?

I can see the benefits of independent edge flex (TNT) and the benefits of the HFP as described by Fin, but I can't quite grasp how they could co-exist.

I don't know a great deal about all this stuff, but it is really interesting to me, hence what might seem obvious questions.

Hi Dan, how's winter doing down-under ???

I think it would work similarly (do similar things) as it would on non TNT boards. Combined with Sno Stix it would likely an amazingly adjustable system. I will let the board builders interpret the engineering characteristics,

The TNT I am currently riding is amazingly fast edge to edge and very sensitive going in and out of turns. It would be interesting to see how the HFP would change the ride/flex/feel/performance.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

What was the reason(s) for building the Carbon boot shells? I have to assume it took some time and effort, so my guess is there must be a strong reason behind it. ??? Thanks!

Hi Ray. Mike may give us the full story when he visits BOL again.

Behind the scenes, Mike has been doing all sorts of custom work for racers for many years. Like many Kiwis I have met, they aren't big on tooting their own horn. Yet they have crazy skills!! My guess is Tyler called Mike and said " I want a boot like ........ " and Mike built it.

Perhaps on another thread - paddles, surfboard foot holds, squirt boat parts, water skis, surf boards, binding damping pads, boots, and much more.

[dantheman0177]

Bryan, things are great, although still in the UK for the time being. We might be back in Oz by the end of the year, but still depends on a few things.

Perhaps on another thread - paddles, surfboard foot holds, squirt boat parts, water skis, surf boards, binding damping pads, boots, and much more.

Now unlike snowboards, where I just ride what's fun and feels good for me, some of these things I know quite a bit about!

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Bryan, things are great, although still in the UK for the time being. We might be back in Oz by the end of the year, but still depends on a few things.

Now unlike snowboards, where I just ride what's fun and feels good for me, some of these things I know quite a bit about!

Cool Dan, I forgot you where in the UK.

Send me an e-mail and I can send you photos of some of Mike's "Other" works. Surf related.

I will post publicly when the Boss says "Go Ahead"

[nigelc]

If boards were being made out of glass, some of the changes would not be there or would be less damatic. The big question for me is, "Is it possible to generate the same result with a glass board?"

surely what metal gives is aboard which is very stiff torsionally .i.e.very low stretch for the metal membrane and very soft longitudinally i.e. very low resistance to bending for the metal.

I have never understood why this could not be achieved with composite construction. Surely the ability to place individual fibres aligned to resist specific stress makes composite construction ideal for isolating specific stresses.

[mr_roboteye]

Surely the ability to place individual fibres aligned to resist specific stress makes composite construction ideal for isolating specific stresses.

Yes, it's called quadrax glass.

I think a glass board can be made as torsionally stiff as a metal board, but not nearly as damp.

later,

Dave R.

[nigelc]

Actually I would have thought that there is allready enough longitudinal stiffness from the wood core and whatever woven rovings/csm are between the layers of layup.

I was envisaging unidirectional fibres layed corner to corner diagonally across the board to specifically adress torsion.

[shawndoggy]

Yes, it's called quadrax glass.

I think a glass board can be made as torsionally stiff as a metal board, but not nearly as damp.

later,

Dave R.

isn't it the rubber that makes 'em damp, not the metal?