Chronicles of the Happy Fun Plate at the Bomber Factory

[nigelc]

also I was thinking more of a process like that used in high end yacht sails where the designer uses finite element analysys to determine a stress map of the sail and than the sail is constructed by gluing individual fibres aligned with the stress lines. Interestingly this process and cnc machinery that is associated with it was adapted and used by boeing for the seamless composite tube fuselage on the new dreamliner

[nigelc]

the rubber may give some dampening but isn't it in there primarily to absorb shear as the board flexes to avoid core bond shear failure?

chris prior or sean martinwhat do you say?

[Donek]

isn't it the rubber that makes 'em damp, not the metal?

This is very complex issue, but I'll try to shed a bit of light on it.

Most vibrations in boards that are disturbing to the rider happen at a specific range of frequeencies (30-70 HZ). Interestingly enough, the use of titanal laminates alone will eliminate these frequencies. Last season our metal construction had no rubber in it at all. The natural harmonic of these boards is a high pitch ping sound. Those of you who have one have heard them. The metal laminate will basically drive the board's natural harmonic well above the 30 to 70 Hz range.

If you pick up any other manufacturers metal boards, you'll find they make a thud when tapped on. In order to accomplish this, it is necessary to add a fair bit of rubber between the laminates. While the use of metal alone will eliminate those bone jarring frequencies from 30 to 70 HZ, rubber will alter the boards response to exciting forces and dramatically alter how the board feels on snow.

The two materials approach the dampening issue from very different perspectives. The metal alters the natural frequency of the board, while the rubber acts something like a shock absorber you'd find in a car's suspension system.

The new boards I'm working on incorporate the use of both metal and rubber.

[nigelc]

ok. i had an opinion, it was wrong. still i learned something:)

[mr_roboteye]

I was envisaging unidirectional fibres layed corner to corner diagonally across the board to specifically address torsion.

That is exactly what quadrax glass is. Four fibreglass layers. One layer aligned with the x axis, one layer with the y axis, one layer angled right, one layer angled left. The angled layers address torsion control. I'm not sure what angles board builders use to align the angled layers.

later,

Dave R.

[mr_roboteye]

Last season our metal construction had no rubber in it at all. The natural harmonic of these boards is a high pitch ping sound.

I've heard this, the prior metal I demoed last season made a unique "ringing" sound. Obviously it had no rubber in it, but was very damp.

later,

Dave R.

[Sultan Guy]

silver texalium which is a material which is similar to carbon fiber in strength and lightness but uses glass fibers which are power coated with aluminum

another reference-Compared to graphite, it's more durable. Compared to fiberglass, it's lighter.

I have worked in the composites world of sporting goods for over 20 years and have much experience with Texallium. This material is just basic E-glass(fiberglass) that has been specially coated with aluminum powder to give it a cool appearance. Originally developed in France for the ski industry. Not any stronger or better then other woven fiberglass just high tech looking. UV and salt water exposure are two weak points.

[tahoetrencher]

Its UV intolerance explains its use in the "vampire" I guess

[tex1230]

From Hexcel, the developer of Texalium:

"Texalium aluminium powder coated laminates are also available, for an eye-catching finish."

from their distributors:

"Hexcel texalium is a type of fabric used mainly for cosmetic reasons, having the same properties of standard 6 ounce fiberglass cloth. 2x2 twill weave with minor additional weight due to the hexcel texalium fabric coating that gives this fabric a metallic silver appearance. "

sounds like texalium is just dressed-up fiberglass?

[Sinecure]

sounds like texalium is just dressed-up fiberglass?

Maybe so, but with your screen name, I'd be careful about dissing it.

[BlueB]

Yes, I would also confirm that. Just beautified glass fibre. Not lighter, if anything it would be heavier for the same strength, as aluminum is there just for a ride. However, I'm not sure if it would add a bit to dampness, for changing the natural resonance of the glass.

Vampire doesn't have any Texalium in it, only real Titanal + Carbon + Zylon + exotic wood.

[bobdea]

Bryan, mind sharing some info on the stuff to back up the lighter stronger statement?

[dcadwell]

Let me first say I have not been on a snowboard for decades. But I still remember my first ride when Fin and I went up a mountain with glorified plywood planks by Burton, boots by Sorel, and bindings off a water ski. After 5 minutes, it became clear we would not make it down with pride intact. Just making it down was all we could ask. Amazing how far the equipment and sport has come.

<O:p</O:p

A few comments from an outsider on “suspension” in bindings/boards:

<O:p</O:p

In a perfect world, the board itself would be constructed with the perfect combination of stiffness and damping. But, I believe there are too many constraints to accomplish this. First, the board must be stiff enough to be functional, so the spring rate is fixed within certain limits. Second, the board’s weight must be reasonable – increased mass is not a viable solution. Third, internal damping is limited by the thickness of the board. What I mean is that for a damper to be most effective, large displacements are required. Dampers (rubber etc) built into the board are limited in the deflection they undergo because the board is relatively thin. Not that they don’t have value, just that there are limits to what can be accomplished internally.

So, if the goal is to reduce the vibration in a board, some combination of increased mass and/or more damping is required. The TD-2 (if I remember right) was mounted directly to the board with dampers sandwiched between the plate and board. This provided a damper attached to a mass – the rider. The TD-3 (again if I remember right) went farther by spreading the damper over more of the board and coupling more of the rider’s mass to the damper by de-coupling the plate from the board in compression (which also reduces flat-spotting?). This new system takes this even farther by spreading the contact area and increasing mass coupling. The beauty of these systems is they use the “free” mass of the rider (the mass is in the system whether you like it or not) as an inertial “anchor” for a damper operating perpendicular to the board where it is most effective.

<O:p</O:p

The inclusion of a mass / damper system to the board by way of the binding and rider does two things in my opinion: reduce vibration of the board and reduce the sensation of the vibration that remains. I believe the first effect is the most important from a performance point of view. Rather than isolate the rider from the vibration, the suspension actually couples the mass of the rider to the vibrating board through a damper providing a loss path for the vibrational energy in the board.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

dcadwell

Welcome to bomber!!

Love the early snowboard story.

[Rob Stevens]

I like the torsion rod.

I'm thinking the benefits of being able to create torsional twist in a recreational situation in ideal conditions is pretty outweighed by the need to reduce it in a blown out race course.

Linking the two binding plates directly, with changeable torsion allowances (leave a little for gliding and feathering finesse, but lock out the rest) is such a good idea. If it was built into a board, it would be finite and pre-set.

PETROL!!! I was thinking the same thing about the springs. A spring with an elastomer core could? act the same as a spring with a metal piston damper, but be way lighter. You couldn't tune it the same way (oil or air volumes) as it would have one rebound speed, but with the metal component provided by the coil, you would have that finite max squish point. I want a spring like this on my trailbike, where I never change the rebound speed (rarely on the big bike either). The question would be that considering the elastomer would act as the "circuit" for both compression AND rebound, would a suitable rebound damping speed be ok as a compression setting? I'm guessing it could be, if your goal was light weight over true tunability.

Are there examples of this type of spring in existance? Seeing as how you said it first, I'm bummed I can't claim it.

Fin... I do think you're on the right track sticking with the elastomers in the binding application, even if it was just to keep the weight down.

[tdifan_2003]

Wow, Fin, I hope you are busy with the production already. Give us some updates please :ices_ange:ices_ange

[bobdea]

yeah, second that.

would love to hear the state of the project....

hit it right the first time? more development?

feedback from racers?

[chewy]

update?

[fin]

Nothing crazy or new really to report right now. That said I do have one in Europe and another going out soon for more testing.

Right now I just need the teams to kick to life so we can just get miles on the HFP. So more reports to come once the Fall training really kicks in.

[dantheman0177]

If you can ship one to Oz, I promise to put some gumby miles on it for you.

I get back in the country on Tuesday and already have two days planned at Buller within the first week!

[doughboyshredder]

Are there examples of this type of spring in existance?

I believe so. Check out the MBS mountain board trucks. They call them egg shocks.

If I was a hardbooter I would want these plates. They look amazing. Very fun thread to read through as well.

[bjvircks]

Are there examples of this type of spring in existance?

LORD Kinematics and Barry Contols are companies that have a wide range of isolators, dampers and supports. They have quite a number of 'families' tailored to different needs, environments, loads, excitation levels. I've used these dampers to shock mount equipment trays on military aircraft and land vehicles. For applying this technology to such a low quantity, low purchase price product as alpine snowboarding we would be limited to their COTS (commercial, off the shelf) products. One good thing is that their products are designed to have uniform damping over a very wide temperature range. This is particularly important if you don't want a damper to turn rock solid at our 'typical useage' temperatures.

[jp1]

Was dreaming of snow and logged on to Bomber. I just read through this whole thread (Awesome job Fin as usual) and great discussions.

Sorry, but have to ask: Any more Updates, Feedback, Results ???

[fin]

Nothing new right now and same spot as before. Waiting for some of the teams to come back so we can do more testing on snow. Honestly, I am not convinced 100% on this design. Have huge hopes and believe in the concept but that does not mean much until the rubber meets the road.

I would say I will have more information and feedback come late Fall.

Stay tuned!!!!!

[jp1]

Fin: Thanks for the update. I know what you mean, I decide I wanted to make a Isolator / Riser plate assembly at the end of the season (March). My goal was to get maximum rider input to the edge of the board, and hopefully provide some isolation between board and rider. I've been waiting 5 months to try them, so you can only imagine the drool when I seen your concept! I don't have access to a milling machine at present, so they are Barbaric but should provide a baseline (does the basic design work, yes / no).

I think most agree (and are excited) with your concept, and respect your need for more feedback before proceeding. We also know of your 'track record', and know you'll get it right before it is released to the general public.

Thanks for letting all of us in on this Project !