barryj Posted April 9, 2021 Report Share Posted April 9, 2021 In prepping the Armada for the off season I took 4 boards to my Tuner and he is wanting to do a Base Grind on the K168. He says their's some nicks/minor gouges along the base edge and also their's zero structure left on the base. To me the base doesn't look that different than my other 3 boards I dropped off for a refresh of wax and edges. ?? I understand the importance of structure especially for spring skiing and the use of a base grind to get a board flat but otherwise why do I need a Base Grind?? Doesn't a Base Grind take off some base metal also?? ...and if so It would seem a board would only have finite number of Base Grinds available in it's life cycle., so you better be damn sure it needs one?? What do the Sages say?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted April 9, 2021 Report Share Posted April 9, 2021 If you still can see the base structure, there are no deep gouges, or really bad bottom nicks, don't grind it. Do you have a pic? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted April 9, 2021 Report Share Posted April 9, 2021 Base structure and smoothness gives you more speed. And grinding reduces board life. Which is more important to you? Everyone sets their own point on that sliding scale. I think I'm out of the norm here, but I just turn less if I want to go faster. My board speed doesn't determine my enjoyment, unless it starts getting pretty bad. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ibrussell Posted April 10, 2021 Report Share Posted April 10, 2021 No Sage here; but If you'r not getting passed on the cat track it still has structure If I get passed on the cat tracks right after I wax I take my toys and go home, and put on the right wax. Might grind every 5-7 years. Unless you 'r racing and need that 100th sec 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryj Posted April 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2021 1 hour ago, BlueB said: If you still can see the base structure No pic as it's at the tuner I passed on the Grind because I just didn't think it was needed.....yet. I don't remember seeing any base structure even on my new boards! What new boards come with structure added? I've only ever had one board ground and structured....mostly to get it flat and run it in spring slush...but that structure didn't seem to last more than 2 months of riding (for work) 5-6x a week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted April 10, 2021 Report Share Posted April 10, 2021 11 minutes ago, barryj said: I don't remember seeing any base structure even on my new boards! What new boards come with structure added? I've only ever had one board ground and structured....mostly to get it flat and run it in spring slush...but that structure didn't seem to last more than 2 months of riding (for work) 5-6x a week. Every new board comes with some sort of structure from my experience. Some are good and some are umm less good. From my little knowledge, I think at a minimum all boards are run through a stone grinder before shipping to make it approximately flat. Are you saying that your board was totally slick underneath? Hmmmmm that structure didn't last long at all. Honestly that doesn't seem right... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryj Posted April 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2021 5 minutes ago, daveo said: Are you saying that your board was totally slick underneath All my boards look "slick" Maybe it's subtle and I'm just not seeing it! Somebody post a pic of what a brand new boards structure looks like and/or what your used all season boards structure looks like now..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted April 10, 2021 Report Share Posted April 10, 2021 After you brush your wax, if you ran the back of your fingernail on the base of your board it would feel corrugated I guess you could say. Depending on the pattern of the structure, of course. Even a fine structure you can feel from my limited experience. I wouldn't use this method though, I tend to be quite protective of my fingernails. Just occurred to me. @barryj do you brush after waxing? I'm just assuming you hot wax, which I might be wrong about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryj Posted April 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2021 32 minutes ago, daveo said: After you brush your wax, Yeah, of course I see/feel structure after hot waxing, scraping and brushing but the pattern I see/feel is from the brushing. 2 hours ago, Corey said: but I just turn less if I want to go faster. It seems Structure is a very subtle thing and I need to take a closer look.....but I'm with Corey, don't need to reduce my boards lifespan for a 100th of a second faster time to stand in line at the lift! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted April 10, 2021 Report Share Posted April 10, 2021 I've had base grinds on boards for 2 reasons. 1/When I've put in a set of extra binding inserts to convert an older board to UPM plate pattern. Done this on several boards in my plate experimentation phase. 2/ Once on my RadAir Obsession after buying it second hand for a minimal cost. Base was fairly deeply marked with dirt in the marks (white P-Tex), plus both edges had areas of pitting from rust damage. The tech in the shop was sceptical about how much he'd have to take off to get any kind of reasonable result. One pass and the base was spectacularly cleaner/smoother and the edge pitting was pretty much gone. I have no intention of putting it through anything that will necessitate another base grind. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonbordin Posted April 10, 2021 Report Share Posted April 10, 2021 Ooo lawd... the FUD in this thread. Let's look at some reputable sources: https://www.racewax.com/base-structure-theory/ https://www.researchgate.net/publication/41719850_The_Ski_base_Structure_Analyser_SSA https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/52098978.pdf As a person who spends a large portion of my sliding time on wet snow, structure is very important to my enjoyment of sliding. A stone grind from a reputable shop can add performance to your board. It can also undo defects. Do I do it every season, no. Have I ever regretted it? No. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted April 10, 2021 Report Share Posted April 10, 2021 (edited) @lonbordin The references above state the speed difference as a result of structure can be between 0 & 10% of the skiers total speed. Do you know if this is in straight glide i.e. not on edge, or under race course conditions. Intrigued also that higher speeds and more water under the base favour coarser structure patterns. That might suggest for a carving snowboard to structure the base 3cm in from the edge coarsely all the time given the high pressures and speeds that area is subject to. Edited April 10, 2021 by SunSurfer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted April 10, 2021 Report Share Posted April 10, 2021 5 hours ago, barryj said: Yeah, of course I see/feel structure after hot waxing, scraping and brushing but the pattern I see/feel is from the brushing. Yes. That is the structure exposed from the wax being removed. The brush doesn't actually give that feel. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st_lupo Posted April 10, 2021 Report Share Posted April 10, 2021 I think I might be another outlier here. With my daughter's race skis I do the whole nine yards, with my snowboards I've started being pretty relaxed about the base (edges are a different story). As long as the edges engage when I want and the board runs fairly straight when flat, I'm good with it. Structure depends on where/how you are riding. I'm almost always on black runs so I've always got more speed potential than I could ever use, and I never structure my bases. By the time the real slush starts, I've switched to mtb mode. Of all of my boards only the F2 and Kessler came from the factory with structure. My Burtons and Coilers came from the 'factory' with a base grind, but never been structured. Any structure will look like a real obvious pattern of intersecting grooves that look kind of like the surface of a vinyl album with shimmering chevron-like overlays (typically). Even old structure should be obvious to the eye. My wife's 9 year old VWerks skis have never been restructured but the original pattern is still slightly visible. Nicks and gouges should be in the realm of what you can fix on your own? Ptex, torch, file, sandpaper: It's kinda fun and it smells great! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted April 10, 2021 Report Share Posted April 10, 2021 Hey it's your board and your money grind away if it feels good. I might consider myself to perhaps tend toward OCD on a few issues in my life but when it comes to a question of "do i need it" hell what do any of us really need ? I made a pair of skis and Bruce base ground them for me because they needed it, edges weren't level with the base. On a side note Bruce has both stone and belt machines for base structure. Given the state of things today just settle on what makes you happy and puts a smile on your face . Isn't that what we all really need ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael.a Posted April 10, 2021 Report Share Posted April 10, 2021 I used to give my boards an obligatory pre or mid season grind cause I thought it mattered. Now Im older and more wise so I stopped doing that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryj Posted April 10, 2021 Author Report Share Posted April 10, 2021 11 hours ago, st_lupo said: Of all of my boards only the F2 and Kessler came from the factory with structure. Yeah...... of all my boards only my K168 seems to have any structure to my eye.................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teach Posted April 11, 2021 Report Share Posted April 11, 2021 On 4/9/2021 at 8:48 PM, barryj said: All my boards look "slick" Maybe it's subtle and I'm just not seeing it! Somebody post a pic of what a brand new boards structure looks like and/or what your used all season boards structure looks like now..... Lots of photos in the for sale section! Like the 162 Kessler that @nick8228put up -- those longitudinal grooves in the base photos are structure. That pattern seems to be more common than the chevron or diagonal patterns. If your base structure is really all gone, or even just gone close to the edges, that means there's been significant base wear. It's probably worn more at the edges, so you have a slightly convex base. A grind to flat isn't going to lose much base material that matters, and will make tuning more accurate. Side-edge bevel guides use the base as reference... Before a base grind it's common to put a base edge bevel on, so the stone doesn't hit the base edge metal. It's hard on the stone and puts a pattern in the base edge you don't want. My suggestion would be to know exactly who is going to be doing the grind and that they know you want minimal base edge bevel and minimal material removed and are familiar with alpine boards and the people who ride them. Too many horrific stories about ruined boards. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted April 11, 2021 Report Share Posted April 11, 2021 24 minutes ago, teach said: My suggestion would be to know exactly who is going to be doing the grind and that they know you want minimal base edge bevel and minimal material removed and are familiar with alpine boards and the people who ride them. Too many horrific stories about ruined boards. This. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kneel Posted April 13, 2021 Report Share Posted April 13, 2021 No sage intended nor implied, but I would ride it till the base is thin enough to see through to the core. I'm not running gates. Sometimes I don't even scape after waxing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allee Posted April 13, 2021 Report Share Posted April 13, 2021 When I did tuning training at the university here, the tech told us that after a while you'll see the board stop taking wax well - you'll scrape it and see some patches are shiny, some are dull. He says that's the point at which he'd grind the base, to open it back up and restore any structure. That's the advice I've followed and I find that usually takes three seasons. (That said, a good hot wax or a decent rub down with some citrus cleaner would probably also take care of the wax issue, so IDK. But I figure a light grind once every three years doesn't hurt). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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