Extended (nose) -on PLATE

[Corey]

Sorry Bola, I'm sick of the 'better than you all' attitude.

Do you have access to the Paddock at Circuit Gilles Villeneuve?

Clearly not. Still hiding behind credentials? Post something of value to everyone reading and not riddles. Then your input might be of benefit to the unwashed masses that you view us as.

Anyone not fore running or running the gates at the Hell You Ride WC or any other WC races need not comment here anymore period.

That's all!

Wow, that's going to be pretty boring. 99% of the posters here are just regular folks with a passion for alpine snowboarding. We enjoy talking about snowboarding and the cool toys that a small but dedicated army of awesome people hand-craft and another even smaller army of people market and sell to us. We're not pros, and know it. We just like talking about snowboarding and sharing our experiences.

What are you here for? Ego inflation? Free advertising for your shop? Good luck with that when your only posts belittle your potential customers without offering any information.

[trailertrash]

Sorry Bola, I'm sick of the 'better than you all' attitude.

Clearly not. Still hiding behind credentials? Post something of value to everyone reading and not riddles. Then your input might be of benefit to the unwashed masses that you view us as.

Wow, that's going to be pretty boring. 99% of the posters here are just regular folks with a passion for alpine snowboarding. We enjoy talking about snowboarding and the cool toys that a small but dedicated army of awesome people hand-craft and another even smaller army of people market and sell to us. We're not pros, and know it. We just like talking about snowboarding and sharing our experiences.

What are you here for? Ego inflation? Free advertising for your shop? Good luck with that when your only posts belittle your potential customers without offering any information.

Well said. His posts don't make me want to be a customer like Sean from Donek do.

[GeoffV]

"In her coniditions".. The short bus must be taking a beating these days... :lol:

Its all good... cool that you rode one..

I tested a SGP plate with the new lower mounting and must say I can't wait to get back on it.. For me I like everything about it.. Love how cushy a ride it is ... like a big ole caddi DeVille with worn out shocks..Not bouncy but it made hard pack seem like it was ridding through soft pack, that butter cutting feel.. I like that and thats what im used to feeling as I try to get my boards as damp as possible.. Never felt like I didn't know what the board was doing it just felt smoother.. had no problem getting low and laying out carves like with out a plate, it was the same.. but better.. I just wouldn't use it in real soft snow as I think I would bury it..

Dunno.. Im sold on a plate for my reasons ,... It works for me...

Very entertaining post...

RSS

That's what I get for multitasking work with BOL. The 2 don't mix well:nono:

[queequeg]

I was going to use the power steering analogy in my review of lowrider's plate (http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=324099#post324099) but didn't. I try to avoid car analogies as most posters here aren't as nuts about car racing as I am. I think the analogy is very appropriate in many ways:

1. I think the feedback is still there with a plate, but quite subdued compared to a naked board.

2. When power steering was first implemented, race drivers complained constantly about not being able to feel what the tires were telling them. They were used to feedback with the volume knob turned to 11; you can still 'hear' feedback with power steering even though the volume knob is turned to 3 or 4.

3. Current power steering systems are much more refined than early ones, and give better feedback to the driver. I'm sure Karl's first plate wasn't successful, every design iteration makes it a bit better by removing unneeded frequencies and keeping the good ones.

You could do an Engineering Masters or Doctorate thesis trying to discern what sorts of signals a rider needs to receive in order to know what a board is doing on the snow and which ones could be filtered out to reduce fatigue. Or you could just give a range of designs to expert testers (World Cup racers and others) and see which ones they like. Sounds like what all the plate manufacturers are doing/have done, doesn't it? ;)

This made me think of something interesting: it seems like you should be able to tune the amount and type (what frequencies) of dampening the plate is providing the user, by connecting the duckbill to the nose with various different materials. I would think that putting different materials between the bill and the board would either increase or decrease dampening, depending upon what you used and how much of it you put there (as well as how close/far from the front mount you put it). Maybe that is the purpose of the bill: to allow the rider to control the amount and type of feedback s/he is getting back from the board. Who knows ... but it seems like different riders have different feelings about the dampening properties the plate brings to the ride. Some people have reported liking the quietness of the ride, whereas others dislike the reduced amount of feedback they get from the board. Being able to tune that to match rider preference would seem like a boon.

[Jack M]

This made me think of something interesting: it seems like you should be able to tune the amount and type (what frequencies) of dampening the plate is providing the user, by connecting the duckbill to the nose with various different materials.

This is what Jasey Jay and other racers have been doing, and it has been discussed here for some time.

[Shred Gruumer]

AThats what I getting for multi work dringking and posting:biggthump..

SsR..

YOU just had to be there... you know who you are..

[queequeg]

This is what Jasey Jay and other racers have been doing, and it has been discussed here for some time.

I'm obviously aware that this has been done and that it has been discussed since I've been involved in those conversations. I figure you would have noticed that as well. WHY it has been done and to what effect has not been nailed down as far as I can tell. That is what I was talking about. It also hasn't been determined whether or not this is the designed *purpose* of the plate or whether or not this is simply a user adaptation that JJA developed on his own.

[Jack M]

sorry dude, I did think you had been in those discussions, but it really looked like you were having a V8 moment there!

[Shred Gruumer]

Here is a few pics of the SGP with taper nose.

[Hans]

Thanks SHRED. I an anxiously waiting for the 17mm height SGP UPM version...

[Jon Dahl]

Now, I will preface this by saying I have not been out on my new Donek Plate. The wait for my replacement axles plus other forces have prevented it.

No one has addressed what happens to a plate when the nose of it comes into contact with the front of the board. It will go from rider isolation to a poorly designed damping device WHEN contact is made. When that moment occurs, the slider part of the system load binds, so no movement will occur. Then, load forces are applied to the front board inserts in a pull-out fashion...and to the slider part of the system in a direction probably not designed for fashion. As force increases, the rear pivot sees loads to the bushing/bearing also. Personally I don't feel what little gain you may see with the plate as a protection for the board is worth the design needs to protect the plate system from these forces.

I guess this puts me into the group that says: design the board to fulfil it's role by decamber/added stiffness/etc, and design the plate to do it's role of isolation. Which, I believe, is where both Sean and Fin have aimed.

Now, on to BlueB's failure. A) Metal topsheet board. B) Point load in a straight line across the board at the front of his plate. C) Nothing to spread the load forces at that point-loaded area. = D) Recipe for failure when the appropriate forces are applied. Not saying anything bad, just saying the obvious...

[Jack M]

Can we all please realize/agree that point loading and line loading are two different things?

That said, I generally am inclined to agree with your assessment, Jon.

[BlueB]

So... How's my plate's pointload (or line load) exactelly worse then Bomber's or Donek's? Their footprints are even narrower, which can only be worse. Or, are you trying to say that every plate hardware should have a load spreading lexan plate (a la Catek) when applied to metaltop boards?

The only obvious things from my crash are the already known facts:

A) Metal boards are easier to damage then glass, metaltops the worst

B) Crashing hard is not good for boards, cartwheel in particular

C) Plates can enhance the load on the nose

Byproduct observation:

- Hardware and plate survived the crash, so they seem to be strong.

[scrutton]

Here is a few pics of the SGP with taper nose.

Very nice. Can you put us out of our misery and tell us what the intent of the extended nose is on the SGP plate?

[Apex Insider]

Hey folks. I appreciate all the interest in the Apex Race Plate. I can't post a detailed response until after the Telluride World Cup. It's just a bit crazy right now. I wanted the BOL community to know I do get updates on these threads and read them when I can. I am not ignoring you.

[bobdea]

OMG!

:lurk:

[nekdut]

Corey Dick:

Ego deflation is what you call it.

I see you get rubbed the wrong way easy:smashfrea

Do I sense some inadequacy here? Since you challenged me on another topic without any regard and you got straightened you have been having a hard time dealing with it. I am about to start rappin'.

I am holding back, I am holding back so hard not to dress you down. Credentials aside and I am not going to get into details but I am sure you know how to look it up, you clearly have no idea. If you get to do half the $$hit that I have done consider yourself lucky.

When I was into auto I had GLOBAL paddock access, now take that for hiding behind credentials. I hope you know what global means. And while you are at it check out LISA or New Horizon to tell you my credentials are out this world and more galactic.

I am glad you asked what I am doing on this site. I come here occasionally to straightens misguided and misconstrued ideas out. And I have been doing it way before you know what this site is all about. I can see that you are sick, sick of your own attitude, sick of trying so hard for recognition, sick of cheating your employer while posting from the cubicle he provided you, sick of sucking up to other posters on this site you consider will boost your standing here, sick of trying so hard to be the ripping alpine carver and probably sick of not being better than everyone else and projecting it.

You exploded due to your sickness and all of a sudden your explosion is now generalized to we enjoy talking about snowboarding. Most of the folks here did not explode, you did. Don't freaking talk/keyboard go out and ride and enjoy riding more than talking, better yet enjoy riding more than talking crap.

If I recall correctly, this type of explosion is the reason Billy Bordy and many other knowledgeable riders don't come here or post here anymore. I just posted something of value and you did not even recognize it because it did not explicitly validate your position. I sense that you want to be spoon fed information or data but that is no fun. I tell you this, plain and simple, plates are first and foremost a racing equipment and most free carvers/riders do not really need it. That is the riddle of the post and you failed, you totally failed to comprehend. If you had been in one of my classes your just earned a F. There are 90% of you folks, as you stated, that are going to spend your hard earned cash on gear you don't need. This gear can, also, screw you up for a long time and not let you enjoy the sport you love. Keep it up stupid young punk.

Bola

free advertising here for folks that can't afford it

I think I quoted the wrong post. oops.

[Corey]

I tell you this, plain and simple, plates are first and foremost a racing equipment and most free carvers/riders do not really need it.

That's useful info in this thread, thanks. Care to elaborate?

I won't address the rest, sorry. Good luck with everything. :D

[bjvircks]

No one has addressed what happens to a plate when the nose of it comes into contact with the front of the board. It will go from rider isolation to a poorly designed damping device WHEN contact is made. When that moment occurs, the slider part of the system load binds, so no movement will occur. Then, load forces are applied to the front board inserts in a pull-out fashion...and to the slider part of the system in a direction probably not designed for fashion. As force increases, the rear pivot sees loads to the bushing/bearing also. Personally I don't feel what little gain you may see with the plate as a protection for the board is worth the design needs to protect the plate system from these forces.

Hey Jon... its good to see someone looking/thinking beyond a localized part of the system. I suspect that while much of what you discuss will be beginning to occur, it will not progress to the extent you think. During deep carving the positive (compressive) loading of the plate-to-board attachment is quite a large value. When the duckbill engages the over flexed board tip the positive loading of the attachment will reduce in magnitude as you indicate, but remain positive rather that go into tension. This reduction in front attach loading will reduce (REDUCE, not eliminate) its contribution to front-of-board flexing while shifting a small percentage of that contribution to the tip of the duckbill, distributing (in a very transient fashion) the loading to an additional location.

Regarding the possible binding of the front slider preventing travel during overload condtions... I don't think it would happen. The driving force in the slider which causes travel is absolutely huge. I think the only thing that could impede slider travel is ice filling in the slot in front of the axle. Anyway... at over flex conditions the slider travel is almost completely maxed out and the systems need for slider travel is less critical.

Sure... the duckbill may be a less than optimum damper and load-path sharing device... but it is better than nothing. Is it absolutely needed? I don't think so, but it does fill a need in short duration transient extreme overload conditions.

as always... just my $0.02

Brad

[lowrider]

I have enjoyed my contact time with many people involved with many aspects of BOL especially the thread on plates.I have not personally met many but i do respect their views and opinions.Even if they do not match my own. There is a commercial aspect to some posts as well as educational. I attempt to respect peoples credentials as well as the individual. When it becomes personal and individuals flaunt their creditentials and dismisses everyone else it dimminishes their own. I build plates i'm not an engineer although i did study it for a period of time and in some peoples minds that makes me a "failed engineer" that is the precise attitude i'm referring to .If i were back in engineering school would i fail for trying to further the development of plates by building and testing plates with a nose ? I build them i share them and ask for uncensured feedback. I can't hide behind a wall of diplomas because i don't have them.What i build has to speek for itself. The people who have reported on SGP plates to date i had never met in person i send them one to try they speak their mind. Congratulations to all who have the credentials and don't beat up people with them. When it comes to alpine boarding and plates why dismiss what could be a good thing because it had not been approved by the "authorities". Not sure who that would be, world cup athletes,engineers ,olympians insurance regulators, ski patrol coaches or average riders? I was reamed out by one particular member for suggesting that side cut templets of snowboards were traced out using migwelder wire and a pencil ( which in fact is true) as verified by a world class builder and not a highly complicated math formulae as he would like to profess as the truith. Never got an apology for it. Didn't expect one considering the source of ridicule. Jack always has usefull information providing formulae to support his view and it is helpful to everyone interested. No doubt there are even more complicating factors at play with the introduction of plates on boards maybe now is the time to start a thread for the Elite professionals (B--a) to start a dedicated thread for Phd's only and the rest of the failed society can lurk. ( I got over it i though ) after reading the previous thread again i see a new victim of this abuse. Civility and decorum is the hallmark of professionalism and i don't see it from some people. I would ask the moderator to decide on whether to leave this posted or delete as they see fit. Not looking to make friends customers or enemys but the attitude i see isn't helpful. Lowrider.

[yyzcanuck]

I see you get rubbed the wrong way easy:smashfrea

I just couldn't resist. This has to be a classic example of this idiom.

[fin]

OK folks, let's keep the conversation on target and not a name-calling event. Would hate to shut down what can be a great topic of discussion. So keep it above the waist.....

[fin]

Not sure if I would consider a "nosed" plate a suspension device. Without it attached mechanically (to the nose of the snowboard), it would really only be working in the compression mode (board being bent) and not in the rebound mode (board bending back to flat). You car guys out there understand the difference. Without control in the rebound direction you have a poorly designed suspension system.

From my understanding talking to those who use a plate with an extension it is to change/modify the flex of the front of the board. Little pieces of foam and chunks of rubber under it are mostly used to effect when and where the board is being "touched".

That said, my personal opinion is that you will see less of this design aspect as board manufacturers change their designs to work better with plates.

[SunSurfer]

That said, my personal opinion is that you will see less of this design aspect as board manufacturers change their designs to work better with plates.

In another thread I noted the recent press release from Kessler & Apex Composites forming a design partnership to optimise the plate/board interaction.

A Boiler/Coiler relationship perhaps?

From the posts on this board Sean and Fin have clearly cooperated to some degree in the design of their recent offerings in both boards and plates.

What might the future hold?

SunSurfer

[Jack M]

A Boiler/Coiler relationship perhaps?

:lol:

Coiler Boiler... eeeeuuuuwwwwww!