Neil Gendzwill Posted March 27, 2022 Report Share Posted March 27, 2022 Knapton’s boots are size 8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workshop7 Posted March 27, 2022 Report Share Posted March 27, 2022 7 hours ago, crackaddict said: 27cm waist and 9m scr is about right for intermediate or advanced intermediate soft boot carving in my opinion, depending of course on the size of your feet, your stance, whether you ride east or west coast corduroy, your binding length, the steepness of the terrain... and importantly, personal preference. The idea that a board's waist width and/or side cut radius is dependent on the riders skill level is absurd. Waist width is a boot size variable, plain and simple. The rest of the design aspects of a given snowboard, such as SCR, stiffness, camber profile and flex pattern, can definitely dictate whether or not that board is intended for the expert rider, but stating that larger widths and SCR is required for better riders just isn't true. One of the best riders I know was on a mass production K2 soft boot board with a SCR of less then 8 this season and tore up every trail he was on. For me, the board variables, aside from waist wide, dictate the ride characteristics of the board and help me decide which one I am choosing to ride that day. If I'm going to a small local hill on a busy weekend day, I'll take my Coiler 162 Contra 9 SCR or BXFR 169 8/10/9 SCR. If I'm going to a bigger mountain on a weekday then I'll bring my Proteus 180 13 SCR or my Contra BXFR 12 SCR. This is not a skill level thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted March 27, 2022 Report Share Posted March 27, 2022 For beginners sidecut is irrelevant but once someone has at least basic carving skills the ability to use a long sidecut is absolutely related to the ability of the rider. If you can’t adjust turn shape you’ll have a bad day on a board with a long sidecut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xargo Posted March 27, 2022 Report Share Posted March 27, 2022 On 3/26/2022 at 8:58 PM, crackaddict said: 12m sidecut, 29cm waist, this is the widest board Bruce has ever built... I've been waiting for this one almost a decade, it took a while for him to re-tool his shop to be able to produce a "real" soft boot carver, wide enough to handle the soft groom and very steep terrain out here. It's gonna be a riot! Sweet! I have been pestering Bruce about wide builds as well and he mentioned your board last week. I hope it rides great and I hope Bruce can make an even wider board for me if it's shorter (around 160) and has higher scr (16m+) (narrower tail&nose for the same waist). The 24.7cm wide hardboot EC Contra Bruce built me late last year has been stellar and I'm confident these wide Contras will be awesome. The widest board I have ridden is 28.6cm and that's too narrow with the angles I'd like to ride (bootout). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crackaddict Posted March 27, 2022 Report Share Posted March 27, 2022 9 hours ago, workshop7 said: The idea that a board's waist width and/or side cut radius is dependent on the riders skill level is absurd. Waist width is a boot size variable, plain and simple. The rest of the design aspects of a given snowboard, such as SCR, stiffness, camber profile and flex pattern, can definitely dictate whether or not that board is intended for the expert rider, but stating that larger widths and SCR is required for better riders just isn't true. One of the best riders I know was on a mass production K2 soft boot board with a SCR of less then 8 this season and tore up every trail he was on. For me, the board variables, aside from waist wide, dictate the ride characteristics of the board and help me decide which one I am choosing to ride that day. If I'm going to a small local hill on a busy weekend day, I'll take my Coiler 162 Contra 9 SCR or BXFR 169 8/10/9 SCR. If I'm going to a bigger mountain on a weekday then I'll bring my Proteus 180 13 SCR or my Contra BXFR 12 SCR. This is not a skill level thing. With respect @workshop7, what's absurd is saying that waist width is purely determined by boot size... As @Neil Gendzwillpointed out, Knapton's boots are size 8 but his waist is 32cm! The ideal waist width has so many determining factors. I mentioned only three above (scr, steepness of terrain and softness of the groom) but there are many more. While I didn't explicitly include the rider's skill level I did kind of imply that, and it's true at least in so far as a more advanced rider will want to carve faster on steeper runs and angulate more (that is, carve harder) in all terrain. Consider your friend with the production K2: that board is sub 8m scr and so the width underfoot will be much higher than a board with the same waist but a 12m or 15m radius. Further, that board will turn slower and tighter with it's production softness and radius and so it doesn't need as much angulation to control speed without slarving; a little overhang could even be tolerable on a board like that. So again, the higher the scr the wider the waist has to be, both because a higher radius board will have less difference between the width of the waist and the width underfoot (which is really the more important factor) and because it needs more angulation to carve tight enough to control speed, especially on steeps. Other factors to consider when determining ideal board width are stance angles and stance width, lift, binding profile, personal preference (because of the trade off between smooth transitions and boot out), terrain steepness and surface softness as mentioned, and yes, the rider's skill level as well. A great rider can carve just about any setup to some degree, but will quickly find the limit to the amount of edge pressure that setup can withstand without chattering and the degree of angulation it can maintain without boot out. When that rider craves higher g-forces they'll want a faster, stiffer board with a higher sidecut radius and also a wider waist... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crackaddict Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 6 hours ago, Xargo said: Sweet! I have been pestering Bruce about wide builds as well and he mentioned your board last week. I hope it rides great and I hope Bruce can make an even wider board for me if it's shorter (around 160) and has higher scr (16m+) (narrower tail&nose for the same waist). The 24.7cm wide hardboot EC Contra Bruce built me late last year has been stellar and I'm confident these wide Contras will be awesome. The widest board I have ridden is 28.6cm and that's too narrow with the angles I'd like to ride (bootout). Careful @Xargo... The 16m sidecut on your 174 Contra is big, but a 16m sidecut on a 160 is humungous! I have a JJA 166 TCX with 142ee and a 16.5m sidecut and it's extremely intense when runs get steep and/or less than very wide. Bruce's boards might be softer than Jasey-Jay's, but what you're aiming at is a monster. You'll need a very stiff interface and balls of steel to carve this thing, be warned. A 16m sidecut is usually found on a 185cm hard boot board with a 165 or 170 effective edge. Your 160 softboot board will have only about 135ee which means very little sidecut depth, you'll have to angulate a ton and power hard into it to stay out of the trees. I like the way you think, just want you to be prepared... A 13 or 14m scr would still be huge on a short board like this, maybe more fun and versatile, less dangerous too... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workshop7 Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 13 hours ago, crackaddict said: With respect @workshop7, what's absurd is saying that waist width is purely determined by boot size... As @Neil Gendzwillpointed out, Knapton's boots are size 8 but his waist is 32cm! The ideal waist width has so many determining factors. I mentioned only three above (scr, steepness of terrain and softness of the groom) but there are many more. While I didn't explicitly include the rider's skill level I did kind of imply that, and it's true at least in so far as a more advanced rider will want to carve faster on steeper runs and angulate more (that is, carve harder) in all terrain. Consider your friend with the production K2: that board is sub 8m scr and so the width underfoot will be much higher than a board with the same waist but a 12m or 15m radius. Further, that board will turn slower and tighter with it's production softness and radius and so it doesn't need as much angulation to control speed without slarving; a little overhang could even be tolerable on a board like that. So again, the higher the scr the wider the waist has to be, both because a higher radius board will have less difference between the width of the waist and the width underfoot (which is really the more important factor) and because it needs more angulation to carve tight enough to control speed, especially on steeps. Other factors to consider when determining ideal board width are stance angles and stance width, lift, binding profile, personal preference (because of the trade off between smooth transitions and boot out), terrain steepness and surface softness as mentioned, and yes, the rider's skill level as well. A great rider can carve just about any setup to some degree, but will quickly find the limit to the amount of edge pressure that setup can withstand without chattering and the degree of angulation it can maintain without boot out. When that rider craves higher g-forces they'll want a faster, stiffer board with a higher sidecut radius and also a wider waist... I understand where you are going with your point here. I just disagree. No disrespect. I just don't see where waist width has anything to do with rider's ability, trail steepness, turn radius nor rider speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xargo Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 7 minutes ago, workshop7 said: I just don't see where waist width has anything to do with rider's ability, trail steepness, turn radius nor rider speed. It can be also thought via different parameter, binding angle. Let's say you have a beginner with 19cm wide hardboot board and you setup bindings with 35/42 angles. Surely there will be overhang but the angles could be easier for beginners than going for 55/62 angles for an example. Beginner can then learn the basic posture of hardboot riding and such using those relaxed angles. Later on when the rider gains experience and bootout starts to become an issue, angles can gradually be changed towards 55/62'ish angles where there would be no boot overhang. The way people looking for wider and wider boards think is that they choose to keep the angles fixed and increase the board width when they gain more experience and start to bootout with their old board. Of course then the question is why don't they just increase angles... Well I can give my own answer which is that if I go higher negative angles than -21 for the back foot I'm using for softboot carving (-21/+21), my knees will probably disintegrate. I would prefer to ride -18/+18 or -15/+15 btw. but I'm able to do 21 and that means less bootouts. I know the follow up will be why I ride duck stance in the first place... Well.. because I want to, it's fun. Though these days I'm also enjoying alpine stance but I really like both styles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 14 hours ago, crackaddict said: Consider your friend with the production K2: that board is sub 8m scr and so the width underfoot will be much higher than a board with the same waist but a 12m or 15m radius. At my stance width of 50 cm, the difference is less than 3 mm between a 12 m and 8 m sidecut ETA: a little math. Let R be the sidecut radius and D be your stance width. Using ol’ Pythagorus’ equation the hypotenuse of that right triangle is the square root of R squared plus D/2 squared. 2 * (X-R) is roughly the difference in width. It’s actually a bit higher than that but close enough for the girls I go with. I calculated 2.6 mm for the difference between widths with R of 8 or 12 m and D of 50 cm 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Ace* Posted March 28, 2022 Report Share Posted March 28, 2022 On 2/16/2022 at 12:55 AM, Carvin' Marvin said: Y'all are talking about a lot of things that aren't hot, new, and juicy snowboards. SHOW ME THE BOARDS. My therapist thinks I have an issue with porn addiction, but I keep telling her the problem is y'all are on here talking about heel pockets and slarving instead of posting the goods. Ahem… 6 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dredman Posted March 29, 2022 Report Share Posted March 29, 2022 New Winterstick Montucky 172.2 is working great! 7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted March 29, 2022 Report Share Posted March 29, 2022 1 hour ago, dredman said: New Winterstick Montucky 172.2 is working great! It’s too pretty to ride! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted March 29, 2022 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2022 23 hours ago, workshop7 said: I just don't see where waist width has anything to do with rider's ability I think someone trying hardboots for the first time will generally be more comfortable with lower binding angles, so waist width is a factor. Also very narrow boards are more tippy and have that "balance beam" feeling. 10 hours ago, dredman said: New Winterstick Montucky 172.2 is working great! Well done sir! 13 hours ago, *Ace* said: Ahem… Haha ok 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8summer Posted April 1, 2022 Report Share Posted April 1, 2022 (edited) 2022 Kessler X-carve 159cm Edited April 1, 2022 by i8summer 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workshop7 Posted April 6, 2022 Report Share Posted April 6, 2022 On 3/29/2022 at 8:15 AM, Jack M said: I think someone trying hardboots for the first time will generally be more comfortable with lower binding angles, so waist width is a factor. This makes sense, but it suggests a change in waist width based on a need for change in binding angle (or boot length). Again, this is a "boot out" issue. What @crackaddict is suggesting is that a board's performance on certain trails and their angle of pitch is adjusted by increasing or decreasing the waist width. Not only do I disagree, but in every conversation that I've had with Bruce and Sean with regard to waist width they both have stated that it's irrelevant. I've been told by both that changing the width to my preferred width will not change the ride characteristics. Don't get me wrong, I'm fully aware that if the only variable that is changed is the width than it will effect the ride. However, dictating a certain width to your builder for one board and a different width for another board based on the trail doesn't compute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnasmo Posted April 6, 2022 Report Share Posted April 6, 2022 I think what @crackaddictis getting at is* that there are factors that affect your preferred or necessary overhang. If you are just concerned with achieving zero overhang/underhang, then it's just boot size and binding angles, but angles and overhang are not one-size-fits-all. Tight radius softboot boards don't need to be high on edge to control speed by carving. Long radius boards need to be nearly vertical without boot-out to control speed by carving. Slope, speed, and skill determine whether you really need zero overhang. If your slope, speed, skill don't have you high on edge, but you still ride wide boards with zero overhang, maybe you're a masochist? I for one don't ride softboots with zero overhang. I use softboots for surfing soft snow on wide boards and hardboots for carving hardpack on narrow boards. Rolling wide boards on edge with zero overhand on hardpack is simply not comfortable -> uncomfortable riding is not fun riding -> softboot carving on hardpack is not fun. The physics just don't work for me and my size 12 boots. Investing time and effort (and gear) to carve wide boards in softboots doesn't make much sense to me when I can have *so* much more fun and comfort doing it on narrow boards in hardboots, but that's me. Same goes for surfing pow, why would I want to do that in hardboots with high binding angles? Choose the board based on the snow you will be riding, then ride that board the way it's the most fun to ride it. Simple really. Angles and overhang will vary. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted April 6, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2022 Agreed @workshop7. It's personal preference. Although all else equal, a wider board will be a little stiffer just because there's more material to bend. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barryj Posted April 6, 2022 Report Share Posted April 6, 2022 On 3/31/2022 at 8:33 PM, i8summer said: 2022 Kessler X-carve 159cm Beautiful! What's the scr on that little bandit??? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post jng Posted April 7, 2022 Popular Post Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 Getting on the Contra train. 166 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted April 7, 2022 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 2 hours ago, jng said: Getting on the Contra train. 166 Awesome! Always loved that graphic. https://rollingstone.tumblr.com/post/27992672539/unknown-pleasures Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8summer Posted April 7, 2022 Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 6 hours ago, barryj said: Beautiful! What's the scr on that little bandit??? 10.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted April 7, 2022 Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 Super creative @jng! Love it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workshop7 Posted April 7, 2022 Report Share Posted April 7, 2022 New (2 weeks ago) Contra BXFR 169, 27.5 wide, 9 SCR. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carvin' Marvin Posted April 8, 2022 Report Share Posted April 8, 2022 It seems that some of y’all are the type that reads playboy for the articles. That joy division coiler is effin rad. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yamifumi Posted April 20, 2022 Report Share Posted April 20, 2022 (edited) Well, never too late to get infected..... #getinfected........Frank is just amazing at what he does and continue to innovate...... 181-16.1cm width Virus Interceptor w/ Oxeon w/ New Black Death Construction for 22-23'. Lets see how this one rides...... Edited April 20, 2022 by yamifumi 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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