Mountain Slope .951

[Beckmann AG]

A few pieces of intel for those that prefer their information without the 'mis'.

 

The boot board ramp in a zise 'B' measures 9.6 degrees. The boot board is removable, and hard foam, and there is room to lower the heel by maybe another 2 degrees without too much trouble.

The boot board is not flat, either toe to heel, or medial/lateral, instead having slight concavity on both axes. If you have higher quality footbeds/orthotics, plan on planing this surface to match.

The boot board is not level medial/lateral, having perhaps 1+degree of incline to the medial side. In other words, the average foot will forcibly pronate.

The plastic is easy to grind with a standard ball burr, offering a powdery residue.

The plastic is bright and sharp, rather than being rubbery and dull. In theory this should enhance feedback, and also spatial awareness. Too bad the sole is rubber. Perhaps future models will provide an option in this area.

Ankle pivots are nicely free-hinging with a lot of bearing surface, and there is plenty of clearance below the lower cuff overlap to allow flex.

The cuff overlap is stiff. Don't leave them unbuckled over the summer.

The plastic is reluctant to form with heat, and does not readily inform it's willingness to 'give'.  So if you plan to do any serious forming, book plenty of time with your fitter, and bring snacks.

The chassis, so to speak, is robust. Plenty of thickness in the lower half of the shell, thinning gradually as you move upward. Presumably decreased deformation will provide consistency of 'messaging' between rider and board. Also room to grind for various protuberant foot parts.

Ankle pocket contouring, at least compared to a modern race ski boot, is nothing to write home about. Better than Deeluxe, but how much better is hard to tell without a side by side comparison.

Very easy to remove the tongue and cuff for modification, and plenty of room to move within the shell to position forming dies and grinding tools.

Medial/lateral cuff adjustment is present, but not particularly fine in increment.

More when I get there.

Pictures maybe.

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Beckmann AG

[lowrider]

If only boot specs from manufactures were this complete .   Thanks !

[Jack M]

Guess I know where I'll be taking mine.  The plastic is Grilamid by the way.  Seems to be popular in high end AT boots.

[powdahbonz]

4 hours ago, Jack M said:

Guess I know where I'll be taking mine.  The plastic is Grilamid by the way.  Seems to be popular in high end AT boots.

Ha..I thought those were yours EB was talking about

[Jack M]

On 11/21/2019 at 4:49 PM, powdahbonz said:

Ha..I thought those were yours EB was talking about

I am in the C shell. Molded the liners tonight, they seem to have molded surprisingly well. They didn’t seem like much out of the box. @Beckmann AG has @MR. JOHN DEERE !’s boots.  
 

Day 1 tomorrow, for about an hour before the rain. Dedicating those turns to JBC. I have high hopes after the carpet session tonight. Seems like a great boot and great fit. 
 

[SunSurfer]

3 hours ago, Jack M said:

I am at in the C shell. Molded the liners tonight, they seem to have molded surprisingly well. They didn’t seem like much out of the box. @Beckmann AG has @MR. JOHN DEERE !’s boots.  
 

Day 1 tomorrow, for about an hour before the rain. Dedicating those turns to JBC. I have high hopes after the carpet session tonight. Seems like a great boot and great fit. 
 

That photo is alpine boarder PORN! 

[lowrider]

What would you call Sorels on a Snurfer ?

[st_lupo]

Stag film.

[snowburn]

44 minutes ago, lowrider said:

What would you call Sorels on a Snurfer ?

Old School Porn. Lol...

[yamifumi]

This is my 3rd season using .951 boots and I have been really happy with it. I actually like the rubber sole on .951 as snow do not stick as much as UPZ or others. I also use standard nail so it is perfect for me. I previously stated that it was expensive and not sure if it is worth the price but more and more I use it, i feel the cost is justified (personal opinion). It is super easy to adjust and change (canting, springs) than any other boots. Also, it is easy to get in and out of the boots and never has to unbuckle even if I am not riding. To top it, it is esthetically pleasing boots. I hope you enjoy it like I do, @Jack M

@Puhutes

Edited November 22, 2019 by yamifumi

[Jack M]

Took two runs in them today before the rain, very pleased.  Excellent heel hold down, flex is smooth and even, and after molding they seem like the kind of boots that you can wear all day without unbuckling.  Performance seems at least as good as if not better than my UPZs with Intuition liners and stiffer tongues.  Except I would have to unbuckle my UPZs after every run.  Looking forward to getting to know these boots this season.

[Jack M]

Took about 5 hot laps on Sunday.  Front boot is perfect, rear boot had some shin pain, I think due to either having too much preload in the toeside spring (which I had cranked up), or maybe I need to adjust my canting (boot and binding), probably all of the above.  Also I ended up unbuckling just the toe buckle on chairlift rides.  No big deal vs unbuckling 3 or even all 5 of my UPZ buckles.  Dealing with the liner tongue is a small nuisance when getting in and out, I guess I have been spoiled by wrap liners in that regard.  The ramp angle seems a bit less than UPZ as I felt I had to narrow my stance by one set of TD3 holes (1/4"?), on the back foot.  6 degrees of toe lift under the front binding still seems appropriate though.  The rubber soles seem fine and are pleasantly quiet when walking on a hard surface.

[Mr.E]

Jack, what liners came in yours?

I just picked up a set with the Roxa tounge liner. It's really a terrible match for the boot- plastic in all the wrong places. That said, the shell seems like a great fit for me, and seems dreamy with a wrap Intuition in them.

Comparing these side by side with some of the new UPZ's, I wasn't especially blown away immediately by either from a "quality" stand point. I think it's really going to come down to fit and features for most buyers. I ended up with the MS because it seemed like a better fit for my foot out of the box (sans liner), but the UPZ's are still a great product.

Looking forward to getting some time on them in different conditions- I'm a full time hardbooter in all conditions, and I'm anticipating these being my primary boot.

[lonbordin]

Anyone with a C or D shell that wants to take a measurement how high the center of the cuff pivot is from the boot board and the level distance between the pivot center and the inside of the deepest point of the heel cuff?

Thanks! 

[Jack M]

C shell, outside hinge is 5.5cm forward of heel, inside hinge is 6.5cm forward. Both are 9cm above boot board. 
 

Correction above, @lonbordin.

[Mr.E]

My impressions:

I've ridden a bunch of boots over a bunch of years, but the most recent being about a decade on Raichle 325 (the red stiff ones) and few years on UPZ RTR (similar to a stiff RC 12). 

My foot is a 27.5 flat, low arch 9.5 AA. I've been running some version of Intuition wraps and orthotic in all of the above. My Raichles were 26.5, the UPZ 26.5, and a fit a current RC12/Flow 25.5.  In MS I went with a B shell.

The stock liner was very hard for me to get into in the shell, and the Roxa plastic tongue hurt my arch. I immediately discarded and put in Scarpa Intuition wraps from Larry in Boulder with some cork orthotics.

I've had them on the hill one day, and so far:

-Best fit so far. No hot spots, no internal rolling of the foot, and I did not compress my arch. (Raichle issues)

-Best heel hold. At some point I had an instep buckle open up, and I didn't notice until I got back to the car. 

- No need for me to over tighten the buckles (see above). Still plenty of wiggle room. In my UPZ's I had to go for higher volume liners at the expense of toe room to get my foot locked in.

They are slightly softer for/ aft than the locked UPZ and probably a decent bit softer than the old race Raichle locked. Stiffer laterally than either (similar to some taller AT and ski boots I've used). 

I'm currently 200lbs of body weight, and after injury and a couple years off I'd say I've slipped from being a strong rider to a beginner/intermediate.  Looking forward to getting more miles on these, but after my first day I'd say, at least for my foot comfort, all sticker shock has been replaced with the first pain free boot experience I've had in decades.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Mr.E

[MR. JOHN DEERE !]

On 11/20/2019 at 10:13 PM, Beckmann AG said:

A few pieces of intel for those that prefer their information without the 'mis'.

 

The boot board ramp in a zise 'B' measures 9.6 degrees. The boot board is removable, and hard foam, and there is room to lower the heel by maybe another 2 degrees without too much trouble.

The boot board is not flat, either toe to heel, or medial/lateral, instead having slight concavity on both axes. If you have higher quality footbeds/orthotics, plan on planing this surface to match.

The boot board is not level medial/lateral, having perhaps 1+degree of incline to the medial side. In other words, the average foot will forcibly pronate.

The plastic is easy to grind with a standard ball burr, offering a powdery residue.

The plastic is bright and sharp, rather than being rubbery and dull. In theory this should enhance feedback, and also spatial awareness. Too bad the sole is rubber. Perhaps future models will provide an option in this area.

Ankle pivots are nicely free-hinging with a lot of bearing surface, and there is plenty of clearance below the lower cuff overlap to allow flex.

The cuff overlap is stiff. Don't leave them unbuckled over the summer.

The plastic is reluctant to form with heat, and does not readily inform it's willingness to 'give'.  So if you plan to do any serious forming, book plenty of time with your fitter, and bring snacks.

The chassis, so to speak, is robust. Plenty of thickness in the lower half of the shell, thinning gradually as you move upward. Presumably decreased deformation will provide consistency of 'messaging' between rider and board. Also room to grind for various protuberant foot parts.

Ankle pocket contouring, at least compared to a modern race ski boot, is nothing to write home about. Better than Deeluxe, but how much better is hard to tell without a side by side comparison.

Very easy to remove the tongue and cuff for modification, and plenty of room to move within the shell to position forming dies and grinding tools.

Medial/lateral cuff adjustment is present, but not particularly fine in increment.

More when I get there.

Pictures maybe.

So I finally got some laps on the boots that the Dokta was working on for me. I 
cant say enough good things about these boots. After a full day of tinkering, I knew what the fuss was all about and I’m really happy with them.

My Only issue with these was, I was in between sizes. After bringing my B shell and another GUY’s C shell, to the Doktas office, it was confirmed that the B shell was the way to go for, but would require some precision work. So I left the boots with the Dokta knowing I was in good hands. He said that the Grildamald was actually very easy to work with. To get the length I needed, he punched out my big toes slightly and grinded my rear haglunds perfectly.
 

Over Xmas break I was able to get out on a couple different types of boards, that gave me some great feedback on the Doktas work. 
if you’re in the NE, and have some specialty work that needs to be done I highly recommend using Eric. 

[Lurch]

@Beckmann AG  Care to offer an assessment of MS width in comparison with the more 'mainstream' boots?

[Beckmann AG]

15 hours ago, MR. JOHN DEERE ! said:

my rear haglunds

I realize my shop is remote, but not that remote...

14 hours ago, Lurch said:

Care to offer an assessment of MS width in comparison with the more 'mainstream' boots?

 

->Didn't put my foot in MRJD's shell, because, you know; Cooties®

About all I can say at this point is that they appear to be more foot-shaped than 'the usual suspects*'.

My feeling though, is that they will be more workable, and offer more tuning options.

 

 

 

*"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled, was convincing the world other boots didn't exist".

 

Edited January 11, 2020 by Beckmann AG
comma,chameleon.

[Jack M]

I have about 25 days in my .951 World Cups so far this season.  Once I got them dialed-in, I realized they're the best boots for me that I've ever had.

tl-dr: I can leave them buckled all day - a first for me.  Performance and heel hold with the stock liner (molded) is at least as good as my UPZs with stiffer tongues and Intuition Power Wraps if not better.  The big difference is the fit is more comfortable for me.

Set-up: IIRC, Northwave was the first to try the heel-under-heel thing, and UPZ followed suit, for better or worse.  The ramp angle seems slightly les s than UPZ though, so I've narrowed my stance width by one set of Bomber binding holes on the back foot.  I've kept my 6 degree toe lift on the front foot and 3 degree heel lift on the back foot, and it feels right.  I used to run 3/3 with Deeluxe. 

I also used to use a little outward cant on my rear binding with Deeluxe and UPZ - 45 degree disc angle, ~56 degree binding angle.  This seemed to produce shin bang on the front quarter of my rear leg with the 951.  Eliminating the outward cant reduced the shin bang immediately.  So it is probably a difference in cuff alignment.  I admit I don't care to determine if I could return to outward cant by changing the cuff canting.  I don't feel a need.

I finally eliminated the shin bang completely by increasing forward lean and reducing spring preload on the rear boot.  Reducing forward lean and increasing spring preload on the front boot helped me with toeside leverage and response.  I'm using the stock spring configuration, red on top (toeside), yellow on bottom (heelside).  I think red is medium and yellow is stiff.  The boots also came with yellow top springs in a bag, haven't tried them.

I use supportive custom orthotics made by @Beckmann AG.  Highly recommended.  I consider custom footbeds mandatory equipment.

Fit: I am lucky in that the "C" shell is for sizes 27.0 to 28.0 and my size is 28.0.  The stock liner seemed thin and rather lightweight in my hand so I was not optimistic that I'd be using them longterm.  I tried my Power Wraps and they crushed my foot - too much material.  (Guess I should have used a thinner liner in my UPZs, as I was constantly unbuckling them every lift ride, and I had them punched for width.)  So I molded the stockers and hoped for the best.  Before molding, trying the boots on at home, there was some liner discomfort on one of my insteps.  This went away after molding.  At first, dealing with a tongue again after so many years in wrap liners was annoying but I'm over that.  Something about my technique was causing the rear tongue to twist out of position towards the tail of the board and shin-bang would ensue.  I solved this by running the stock booster strap between the liner tongue and the shell tongue.  Presto, tongue stays in place, no shin bang.  The thinner liner is a little colder, but I have room for toe warmers, and the fit provides good circulation. 

I can leave the boots buckled all day.  This is a first for me.  I used to have to crank the ankle buckle on Deeluxes to deal with their common heel lift, and I would unbuckle that buckle each chairlift ride.  UPZ - I was unbuckling all 3 lower buckles and sometimes all 5 each chairlift ride (see note above about the liners though).  In the 951s I can buckle comfortably and get great performance and not have to touch them all day, even through lunch.  I think this is due in part to the fact that the stiffer WC shell is "right there" when you lean on it, so tight buckling is not required to make the shell respond.  If I'm feeling aggressive I'll do the ankle buckle one more notch, and then I'll unbuckle that one for the lift.  For racing I'll tighten all the buckles one more notch.

I checked the molded liners for the impressions of my ankle bones and the ankle hinges.  They are right on top of each other!

I agree with Erik that the shell seems more foot shaped than the rest, the boot gives a tighter squeeze in the instep area while putting it on.

Performance: Heel lift is zero, like UPZ.  I had taken measures to reduce heel lift in my Deeluxes to a tolerable amount, but I didn't realize how much I still had until I switched to UPZ.  951s are similarly locked down.  The value of this can't be overstated.  Forward flex is even and smooth and seems unimpeded by boot plastic and completely controlled by the spring system.  The tongue is soft but this doesn't seem to matter.  Lateral flex is a bit stiffer than my UPZ RC10, and I like this.  Out of the box the UPZs were too soft laterally, but that was improved by Intuition liners and the stiffer tongue.

Goodbye Step-Ins:  I thought this might be a deal-breaker but it just isn't.  I was already stopping and bending over to buckle my boots.  And then checking to see if I was fully clicked in and doing the hop-stomp to make sure.  Master the heelside edge chop and you can clip in without sitting down.  This past weekend I was actually often clipped in and waiting for @GeoffV to deal with his step-ins, LOL.

Bonus: I'm enjoying the rubber soles.  While walking they are quiet, more grippy, and less jarring.

Value: The price tag induces a gulp, but for me the boots are perfect in stock trim.  I will buy another pair when these wear out. Certain outlets are willing to discount them.  Certain other outlets actually charge more than the MSRP of 990 Euros for the WC, 890 Euros for the standards.  Deeluxe require an aftermarket spring system - without it the stock forward lean selector actually prevents the ankle hinge from doing anything, and then any flex must come from shell deformation.  They also might need extra padding to reduce heel lift.  UPZs commonly need aftermarket liners and possibly stiffer tongues, and possibly an aftermarket spring system, although I didn't feel a need for that.  So comparing the price of each stock boot is not apples-to-apples.

Conclusion: The best performing most comfortable boot I've ever had.  If you are perfectly happy with your UPZs there's not an urgent need to upgrade.  If you ride Deeluxe, I'd strongly recommend you consider it.  My congratulations to @Puhutes and team for apparently successfully recreating the famous Point .950. I never got to ride that boot, but I can’t imagine it was any better. The World Cup roster seems to agree. 

[Mr.E]

I have 6 days on mine with Intuition liners (Jack has the newer liner version), but I'd echo the same thoughts. Also narrowed my stance about 1/2"-3/4" depending on the board.

[lonbordin]

Could someone post a shot of the interior heel pocket of the 951 shells?  I can't tell from the exterior shots what it looks like, thanks.

[rjnakata]

7 hours ago, Jack M said:

Set-up: IIRC, Northwave was the first to try the heel-under-heel thing, and UPZ followed suit, for better or worse.  The ramp angle seems slightly less than UPZ though...

Thank you for anther great review!

Would you say the sole length is the same for both 951 and UPZ?  Is the 951 longer per size?

I saw where BeckmanAG says ramp angle is 9 degrees and I heard UPZ is 6 degrees.  Am I wrong?

[Beckmann AG]

1 minute ago, rjnakata said:

I saw where BeckmanAG says ramp angle is 9 degrees and I heard UPZ is 6 degrees.  Am I wrong?

Ramp measured 9.6 in the pair I had in the shop.

UPZ is +/- 12.

[rjnakata]

Just now, Beckmann AG said:

UPZ is +/- 12.

Lots! whoa