Plate's effect on board?

[daveo]

22 minutes ago, Lurch said:

Not much said yet about that extra couple of pounds (??) of plate hanging down there on the lift - must subtract some from the seeming upside of plate reducing rider fatigue?

It is heavier sure. But I feel I can carve harder and longer on my ptex topsheet plated board compared to my unplated board with a lighter topsheet. Massively. 

[SunSurfer]

@Lurch I'll be 60 next month. I've been a convert to full isolation plates since about 2010. The weight and height is noticeable, both in lift queues and on the chairlift, but the overall fatigue reduction effect is such that your pleasurable riding day is substantially extended. More bang for your lift pass buck, and for the petrol you burned getting to and from the mountain, and all the other fixed costs associated with a day at the mountain. For me in NZ that includes flights, accommodation costs, meals away from home, to ride crowded pistes in marginal temperatures where the overnight groom is visible for about 10-15 minutes after the hordes empty onto the slopes when the lifts open each morning. Despite all that a plate allows me to carve my turns till lift closure.

Even with a footrest on the chair you may need to let the board hang because of the extra height of the plate making the gap between footrest and safety bar tight.

Edited January 15, 2019 by SunSurfer

[Jack M]

9 hours ago, David Kirk said:

 

This is why I really want to try an Allflex at some point. The fact that it follows the board means that the rider doesn't give up that control technique while at the same time gives better edge hold and less vibration.

IMO, the Apex is best for this. It actually follows the board too, although not in the same way. 

[lonbordin]

4 hours ago, Lurch said:

Not much said yet about that extra couple of pounds (??) of plate hanging down there on the lift - must subtract some from the seeming upside of plate reducing rider fatigue?

  @Jack M it would be great if you could supply actual weight of each system at some stage.

I've really only noticed the plate on long chair rides. Due to my leg length and increased stack highth of plate & binding I cannot rest the board on the foot rest and fit my leg under the safety bar so I have to dangle on most* lifts.  You notice this on longer lifts and windy days.

*Some lifts have a smaller diameter foot rest and now that I'm back on UPZs I can rest the rear overhang of the UPZ shell on the foot rest if the foot rest is to my left.

I will say there's one other place you notice the weight... when you wipe out or crash.

[pow4ever]

3 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

your pleasurable riding day is substantially extended. More bang for your lift pass buck, and for the petrol you burned getting to and from the mountain, and all the other fixed costs associated with a day at the mountain. For me in NZ that includes flights, accommodation costs, meals away from home, to ride crowded pistes in marginal temperatures where the overnight groom is visible for about 10-15 minutes after the hordes empty onto the slopes when the lifts open each morning. Despite all that a plate allows me to carve my turns till lift closure.

+1 on this.  I know it too well. It's a hike for me to get to the mountain.  It doesn't matter what the condition it is in.  I am riding till I feel it's still safe to ride(visibility).

3 minutes ago, lonbordin said:

I will say there's one other place you notice the weight... when you wipe out or crash.

My biggest worry on Plate; the crashed weight as I still wipe out often.  
2nd part it's the lack of warning sign for me: Like a short slalom skateboard.  Goes from I am doing great to I am down very quickly when one push the limit.
It's very possible that it's my dull sense at fault.

4 hours ago, Lurch said:

Not much said yet about that extra couple of pounds (??) of plate hanging down there on the lift - must subtract some from the seeming upside of plate reducing rider fatigue?

  @Jack M it would be great if you could supply actual weight of each system at some stage.

+1  Great mind think alike!

8 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

You'll get older! 
Don't underestimate the fatigue reduction benefit, and the extension of your carveable riding day, both from fatigue reduction and from being able to carve snow in less than ideal conditions. 

Allen:  Yes sir.  I am getting there lol.  Notice it's getting harder to have my vo2max stay where I like it.  In the mean time; I will play to my "strength" while I have it.  Fitness is something I worked hard for.  It's probably the worst in term of ROI of time spent.  Given the choice I rather have a on-demand plate(strong leg/lung) than external plate in the narrow context of fatigue reduction san other benefits plate bring. 

For me:  I tried plate(JJA); still have it.  At this point Keep it stupid simple works for me at this stage of my progression.  Will to go back to plate when I feel my board is the limiting factor but probably won't be for a long time.
I often missed the forest for the tree:  If I spent some time tweaking my setup; I will get more enjoyment out of it(strategic).  But my approached are often tactical; I am just going to ride until my body adopt to the setup.  In engineering it's all about trade off.  When one day:  we have light weight, simple to setup/install, cheap plate I will be the first one to use one.  Until the technology have been democratize/demystify (for me) it's great for the bold trial blazer.

my humble 2 cents.

[Corey]

26 minutes ago, lonbordin said:

*Some lifts have a smaller diameter foot rest and now that I'm back on UPZs I can rest the rear overhang of the UPZ shell on the foot rest if the foot rest is to my left.

BTS on Deeluxe boots seems to be made for this.    

[David Kirk]

3 hours ago, Jack M said:

IMO, the Apex is best for this. It actually follows the board too, although not in the same way. 

Interesting - it was my impression that the Apex was a rigid plate with a pivoting axle at one end and a floating axle at the other......do I have this wrong?

Can the rider lever the front toe and rear heel up to decamber the board with the Apex?

Thanks!

 

 

dave

[Jack M]

56 minutes ago, David Kirk said:

Interesting - it was my impression that the Apex was a rigid plate with a pivoting axle at one end and a floating axle at the other......do I have this wrong?

You're correct about the axles, but the plate is not totally rigid.  At higher speeds and g-loads, it gets squeezed between the board and the rider's centrifugal force, and flexes.  Then it becomes like a leaf spring.  It also allows some limited pedaling.  This is why the Apex has bumpers - to prevent the plate from crashing into the board and to protect the hardware from overloading.  These are the critical advances over the original Boilerplate, which as far as I could tell was like an I-beam.

 

56 minutes ago, David Kirk said:

Can the rider lever the front toe and rear heel up to decamber the board with the Apex?

Yes but of course not as much as with a bare board.  I felt that the Allflex that I used (longitudinal cut, full plate) was the least malleable.

[pokkis]

For my powerless legs and 80kg i have not seen yet rigid plate, 5mm BP was quite flexy and i had no problems to twist/pedal with that. Major issus for me was with BP thatit was too short, Apex was better but now i prefer longer "axle" spacing and due that prefer AllFlex insert setup.

I feel still funny folks bashing plates even either not riding them or testing them few runs. That just raise good memeories when titanal boards came out, it was same phenomene. But good, i ride what i want, and dont care what others prefere. Tomorrow 4th day in row on powder with Backlands, this time not with plate, but later on pow too.

[Jack M]

16 minutes ago, pokkis said:

5mm BP was quite flexy

That's not at all how Fin intended it to be.  He built it to be a perfectly flat plane, reasoning that your stance should stay the same no matter what the board is doing below.  (we've evolved since then)  I have to wonder if maybe yours was slotted or even defective, as mine was very stiff and consistent with how Fin described it to me.

[pokkis]

With my 54/55cm stance it was hard to setup stiff. Too close both axles.

Plate was, and still is fine, works fine with shorter stance for current owner.

Edited January 15, 2019 by pokkis

[Lurch]

3 hours ago, Jack M said:

You're correct about the axles, but the plate is not totally rigid.  At higher speeds and g-loads, it gets squeezed between the board and the rider's centrifugal force, and flexes.  Then it becomes like a leaf spring.  It also allows some limited pedaling.  This is why the Apex has bumpers - to prevent the plate from crashing into the board and to protect the hardware from overloading. 

So does the new spring Allflex just allow tuning of the point when the plate transitions from floating to rigid, or is it more about decoupling the fwd and aft section of plate?

[Jack M]

5 minutes ago, Lurch said:

So does the new spring Allflex just allow tuning of the point when the plate transitions from floating to rigid, or is it more about decoupling the fwd and aft section of plate?

The function of the Allflex depends on flexing the plate itself.  The spring version allows some adjustment of that flex.  Also, the Allflex is known to develop cracks in the machined webs on the underside of the plate.  It's conceivable the springs are also an effort to address that issue.

[David Kirk]

4 hours ago, Jack M said:

You're correct about the axles, but the plate is not totally rigid.  At higher speeds and g-loads, it gets squeezed between the board and the rider's centrifugal force, and flexes.  Then it becomes like a leaf spring.  It also allows some limited pedaling.  This is why the Apex has bumpers - to prevent the plate from crashing into the board and to protect the hardware from overloading.  These are the critical advances over the original Boilerplate, which as far as I could tell was like an I-beam.

 

Yes but of course not as much as with a bare board.  I felt that the Allflex that I used (longitudinal cut, full plate) was the least malleable.

Cool - so the Apex has a controlled "bottoming out" of the plate/bumpers against the top surface of the board and this allows the rider to decamber the board with their feet?

dave

[Jack M]

1 hour ago, David Kirk said:

Cool - so the Apex has a controlled "bottoming out" of the plate/bumpers against the top surface of the board and this allows the rider to decamber the board with their feet?

In theory yes, but I don't try to do that while riding so I can't fully comment on that.  If I need a tighter radius, I try to angulate more to tip the board up higher.  I will say again the plate will limit efforts to decamber or twist the board with your feet, but not totally.

[David Kirk]

1 hour ago, Jack M said:

In theory yes, but I don't try to do that while riding so I can't fully comment on that.  If I need a tighter radius, I try to angulate more to tip the board up higher.  I will say again the plate will limit efforts to decamber or twist the board with your feet, but not totally.

Cool.

 

One would think that if the only contact the plate has with the board is with pivots on each end that you will not be able to do any decambering with the feet.....so if that is to happen it will require a 3rd point of contact.....and I assume that could be the bumpers on the bottom side of the plate.

dave

 

 

[Jack M]

2 hours ago, David Kirk said:

Cool.

One would think that if the only contact the plate has with the board is with pivots on each end that you will not be able to do any decambering with the feet.....so if that is to happen it will require a 3rd point of contact.....and I assume that could be the bumpers on the bottom side of the plate.

No, the plate is an extension of the board, bumpers are not required for the inputs you're describing.  The other plates allow some pedaling and decambering without bumpers.  The Apex has bumpers just due to the nature of the design and the fact that it is so low to the board.

[bucky]

Jack -  seems like you prefer the Apex over Allflex. Can you provide a description of the diffrrences?

[David Kirk]

2 hours ago, Jack M said:

No, the plate is an extension of the board, bumpers are not required for the inputs you're describing.  The other plates allow some pedaling and decambering without bumpers.  The Apex has bumpers just due to the nature of the design and the fact that it is so low to the board.

Thanks for the reply.

I'm lost....I don't see how the rider can in any way, regardless of how stiff or soft the plate might be, decamber the board if there is a pivot at the ends of the plate. If I stand on the plate and push down on the front heel and rear toe the plate will flex and the pivots will pivot but the board will see zero input.....my feet will in effect just make the pivots rotate slightly and the board will be unaffected.

I've used the Donek and the 5 mm Boiler and they are both very much this way. One allows easy twisting of the board for low speed control (Donek) but neither has the ability to translate fore/aft foot torque to the board....the pivots keep that from being possible.

Do you see what I'm saying?

dave

[Corey]

You have it correct for those two plates! Now make the plate more flexible and add squishy bumpers inboard and outboard of the pivots for the Apex. Bend the plate, the bumpers push on the board. 

Bottom of plate: (I'm pretty sure this is the Apex X-plate, please correct if not!)

[pokkis]

It is

[lowrider]

My belief is that the bumpers are now impeding the ability of the board to perform at it's peak design. Might be something desirable to specific situations but not true isolation. Why not trust the plate to allow the board to perform at it's peak ? 

[lonbordin]

13 minutes ago, lowrider said:

My belief is that the bumpers are now impeding the ability of the board to perform at it's peak design. Might be something desirable to specific situations but not true isolation. Why not trust the plate to allow the board to perform at it's peak ? 

It's interesting... the plate is becoming more like the gecko system...

[Jonny]

I haven't got much to contribute to the "pedaling" question except that it does seem to me that the independent commitment to the new edge may do something good to the body position even if the actual twist imparted to the board is minimal. For me at least it seems that my back leg becomes more active in the edge change when I'm on a plate. Some of this may have to do with the one big disadvantage I'ver experienced with the one plate I own (an old duckbill SGP/Lowrider) which is that it's really easy to overpower the nose at the initiation of the turn, perhaps especially for heavyweights like me. During the turn or when cruising that plate was nothing but an advantage, except for the hammering noise in a deep carve when the board was flexing up into the bumper on the duckbill. Worth it because of how much smoother the ride was in chop. If I were able to ride only perfect groom I don't think I'd use a plate at all.

That was all on an older Coiler Racecarve 180. I now ride a Proteus which is stiffer anyway. I haven't yet tried it with a plate but I have a BBP V2 waiting for me when I get home (Thanks Yamifumi) and am very curious to find out how those two interact.

Edited January 16, 2019 by Jonny
typo

[David Kirk]

3 hours ago, Corey said:

You have it correct for those two plates! Now make the plate more flexible and add squishy bumpers inboard and outboard of the pivots for the Apex. Bend the plate, the bumpers push on the board. 

Bottom of plate: (I'm pretty sure this is the Apex X-plate, please correct if not!)

Got it. The Donek and Boiler can only apply force the the board through the pivots and therefore can't translate a decambering force from the feet. But with the Apex the bumpers mean that the foot print isn't a single point (pivot) but instead is longer so one can decamber the board with a combination of heel and toe force. I like the concept and have never seen the underside of the Apex.

I've obviously never ridden an Apex......what is your impression of the way they work? How would you compare the feel on the snow compared to others?

Thanks for the info.

dave

 

P.S. - I just looked at the Apex site and it looks like that have made  design change. Now it looks like there are only bumpers on the inside of the pivots and none outside the pivots. This should still allow the decambering while having a smaller effective footprint.

I suppose the main unknown is how stiff the plate is....if it were perfectly rigid then the bumpers become moot so there must be some flex....but how much?

 

 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2019 by David Kirk