Plate's effect on board?

[rjnakata]

Question: does an isolation plate stiffen or soften a board, or neither?

Ie is it best to use a plate on a board suited for your weight or one made for a different rider weight?

Edited January 6, 2019 by rjnakata

[SunSurfer]

Answer depends on the design. A true isolation design with a sliding hinge axle and no impingement allows the board to bend along its length completely freely. It will alter the torsional stiffness of the board, depending upon the plates own torsional stiffness and the amount of slop in the mechanism linking plate and board. 

The rider may feel that the plate makes the board ride as if it had a longer SCR. My suspicion is that this is due to the plate making the slarved component of the turn less as the untwisted board tracks more truely in the groove the edge creates in the snow.

There are some riders I have come across who are completely convinced that the opposite is true, and that a true isolation design makes the board "stiffer". 

Edited January 6, 2019 by SunSurfer

[daveo]

For what it's worth, Marcel at Oxess makes boards softer when they are going to be used with a plate. 

[SunSurfer]

19 minutes ago, daveo said:

For what it's worth, Marcel at Oxess makes boards softer when they are going to be used with a plate. 

What kind of plate? AllFlex, Apex, Vist, ..... The design features of the various plates both currently and previously available are so different from each other.

Edited January 6, 2019 by SunSurfer

[rjnakata]

1 hour ago, SunSurfer said:

Answer depends on the design.

i was thinking of an Apex/Bomber/Donek type plate ("suspended plate") when asking the question as opposed to Vist, Allflex type plates.

 

[big mario]

Not answering your specific question, but I find the disconnection of a plate downright disconcerting.  YMMV

Mario

[SunSurfer]

Any "plate" that is bent from its original shape in the process of riding is absorbing some of the forces that would otherwise bend the board. In the sense that a greater total force is then required to bend the board the same amount the board/plate complex is "stiffer".

[SunSurfer]

Back to the OPs original question, 

The best board to ride with an isolation plate (BBP, SG, Apex, Donek - sliding axle designs) would be a board designed both for your weight and that type of plate. A board equipped with one of these can be ridden faster through lumpier snow and has a different stress pattern than one mounted with just bindings.

The best board would have UPM inserts because standard 4x4 insert patterns tend to be too short in overall length for the best interaxle distances. 

If your goal is freecarving, and to answer your own question, rather than all-out racing, then to start with the best board is one you own already, that you know already, and would like to ride for more of the day. 

Edited January 7, 2019 by SunSurfer

[daveo]

1 hour ago, SunSurfer said:

What kind of plate? AllFlex, Apex, Vist, ..... The design features of the various plates both currently and previously available are so different from each other.

We discussed allflex, vistflex and fully floating plates in regards to board stiffness I believe.

1 hour ago, big mario said:

Not answering your specific question, but I find the disconnection of a plate downright disconcerting.  YMMV

Mario

I'm the total opposite. Horses for courses eh. 

[bobdea]

1 hour ago, big mario said:

Not answering your specific question, but I find the disconnection of a plate downright disconcerting.  YMMV

Mario

Depending on the conditions, yes, but other times it’s a huge benefit.

[daveo]

1 hour ago, SunSurfer said:

What kind of plate? AllFlex, Apex, Vist, ..... The design features of the various plates both currently and previously available are so different from each other.

Sorry just checked. It was plates in general. We spoke specifics after that general statement. If intended to ride with a plate, board is made softer. Just like that. I guess ceteris paribus and surely every case would be different. 

[Jack M]

Definitely depends on the type of plate.  Is it a full isolation plate, or a board flex modifier, or some hybrid of the two?  The older style Vist is mostly a board flex modifier as it sits right on the board.  I had an original 5mm Boilerplate that I tried on my 2010 Coiler NSR 185 which was built with the old Vist inserts. I don't know if Bruce built the board differently for a Vist plate, but I tend to think not because the board was great without any plate.  The Boilerplate definitely made the board carve shorter and livelier.  It would seem that this was because it was more free to do so, without being affected nearly as much by the rider or bindings.  I would find myself unexpectedly airborne on that plate.  However the fact that it completely prevented any pedaling made it feel like the board was less willing to come around in certain situations, and harder to manipulate.  Ultimately I stopped using it due to a number of factors - the total disconnection from the snow, total lack of any flex (torsional or lengthwise), extra height and weight.

An Allflex style plate works completely differently.  The plate itself has some flex, but works as an isolation plate for the first 6mm of travel away from the middle of the board per their website.  Then the mechanism locks and beyond that the plate flexes with the board, becoming a flex modifier.  I haven't tried an Allflex yet, but I am currently demo'ing a Vistflex from Bola at All Boards Sports.  It works in a similar way as the Allflex.  Without a doubt, it makes my Kessler 168 carve longer and more damp than it does without.

To @big mario's comment, I felt the same way about the Boilerplate, which is why I stopped using it.  When I first stepped on the Vistflex I had the same feeling - too tall, too heavy, too disconnected.  But then I gave it a couple days and actually became one with it in a way I never did with the Boilerplate.  The height and weight disappeared (well, not on chairlifts with no footrest), and the snow feel actually came back.  I credit this to the flex.  I can trust it - I can tell when the edge is holding and when it's about to let go.  I never got to that point on the Boilerplate, not sure I ever would have.  It's definitely a comfortable ride and a leg saver.  It improves edge hold on ice, and makes crummy conditions more enjoyable.  In the coming days I'll be comparing this plate against my friend's new Allflex, an Apex X-Plate (UPM), and a Donek AF plate (UPM).

[daveo]

Looking forward to this review, plate fuhrer @Jack M 

 

[SunSurfer]

A while ago Jack formally reviewed 3 GS boards, including a Coiler and a Kessler (& a Donek?), side by side. Was a really informative piece. Hoping he has the time and inclination to do something similar with this array of plates 

[Lurch]

@Jack M do you think a 4 mm lite BP may have offered better snow 'feel' or was it more the mechanism that didn't agree with you?

[BlueB]

Vist makes the board feel stiffer. Floating axle designs, when mounted close to the ball of the front foot and heel of rear, make the board feel softer, but only logitudinal flex. 

Edited January 7, 2019 by BlueB

[daveo]

4 minutes ago, BlueB said:

Floating axle designs, when mounted close to the ball of the front foot and heel of rear, make the board feel softer, but only logitudinal flex. 

I really felt like my board felt stiffer and turned a lot larger with my Apex plate mounted as you mentioned. Interesting.. 

[Corey]

Us humans are not very good at distinguishing cause from effect. Perhaps an isolation plate forces larger turns for a given effort, which makes us think the board is stiffer? 

I'm in the camp that found my 4mm Lite plate makes the board turn bigger. I also partially lose the sensation of speed. 

[daveo]

Right. Makes sense. Actually the board behaved wildly different just from switching which UPM inserts were being used. 

So I guess it could make it feel softer but turn larger?

Edited January 7, 2019 by daveo

[Jack M]

6 hours ago, Lurch said:

@Jack M do you think a 4 mm lite BP may have offered better snow 'feel' or was it more the mechanism that didn't agree with you?

I never tried that plate but it was supposed to do just that - return some snow feel and some torsional flex.  Last week I went ahead and purchased a UPM Apex X-Plate, betting that I will get to know it and love it.  If not I will sell it.  I did like it the one day I tried my friend's 4x4 X-Plate last year.  The X-Plate mechanism is basically very similar to the Boilerplate (rear hinge, front sliding hinge, no board flex interference), but the plate has some flex and the whole thing is lower and lighter.

1 hour ago, Corey said:

Us humans are not very good at distinguishing cause from effect. Perhaps an isolation plate forces larger turns for a given effort, which makes us think the board is stiffer? 

I'm in the camp that found my 4mm Lite plate makes the board turn bigger. I also partially lose the sensation of speed. 

At first I thought my 5mm Boilerplate was making the board turn bigger, but once I spent some time on it and got better at "working" the board with it, I could carve the board shorter than without - and sometimes unintentionally, which I didn't like and made me worry about breaking the board.  I think that initial effect of longer turns was from the total elimination of pedaling.

 

7 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

A while ago Jack formally reviewed 3 GS boards, including a Coiler and a Kessler (& a Donek?), side by side. Was a really informative piece. Hoping he has the time and inclination to do something similar with this array of plates 

It was a Kessler, Coiler, Prior, and two Doneks.  Previous site owners deleted it as the board comparisons were dated.  It's on my to-do list to resurrect the parts that compared old vs modern board design.

[lowrider]

14 hours ago, big mario said:

Not answering your specific question, but I find the disconnection of a plate downright disconcerting.  YMMV

Mario

Oh ye of little faith ! Under ideal riding conditions yes. In less than ideal conditions a plate puts you in control over similar conditions without a plate.

[bobdea]

Wow, that apex x looks like a SG plate in some ways. 

 

First time on plates this year today, been softbooting. Moved my axle in a a set of inserts, it’s crazy now, I’m fat I but still can pedal a lot. Its amazing how different the feel is with moving a single part. 

[Jack M]

Did some back to back runs on the Vistflex on loan from Bola, and a Donek AF on loan from @~tb today.  And wouldn't you know it, Fed Ex arrived 4 days early (!!) with the X-plate but not in time for me to ride it today.  Conditions were excellent for plate testing.  Cold day starting at 3℉, very very firm granular conditions with patches of ice here and there, and groomer seams abound.  Had I not been riding with a plate, I know I would have done what carving compadre @trailertrash did and throw in the towel after 3 runs.  He was having a hard time controlling speed, getting edge penetration, and preventing chatter, even on his Coiler Angrry 160.  I've ridden these conditions hundreds of times and I know I would have been having the same problems.  With these two plates I was thoroughly enjoying myself.  Both plates are leg savers and increased edge hold and comfort significantly.  I will save my full thoughts until after I've ridden all 4 plates, but I can say that the Vistflex offered a bit more comfort, while the Donek AF had more snow feel and even more edge hold.  Turned the board into a hockey skate.  Astonishing really.  I'm late to the party because of previous arrangements with Bomber but my game has been changed.  The X-Plate better match or beat the AF.

I will also say that the Vistflex made the board carve longer, and the Donek AF made it carve shorter, which is consistent with my feelings about isolation plates above.  Can't wait to try the Apex, and can't wait to try the UPM plates on my longer boards too.  A new light has dawned upon my carving life!

Both Kessler 168:

[rjnakata]

OP here, thanks for all of your insight!   I too am eagerly awaiting Jack's full review also.

My first day on a plate today (BP lite) on Coiler AM 169-tight, choppy new snow (1-3"), smallish resort, ok grooming, then tracked out in the afternoon.  

To me it felt very familiar with not many of the reported downsides (no low speed difficulty, no loss of snow feel etc).  It certainly helped me negotiate the chop.  My legs were about 1/4 less tired at the end of the day as compared to no plate.  I felt the plate helped with turn radius (smaller) and with edge grip (maybe that's just more confidence on the cruddy surface).  Surprisingly it didn't feel too heavy on the lift either.

Judging from what folks were saying I thought I'd have to learn how to ride again.  On the contrary it seemed to help me ride better in both smooth and rougher terrain.

Edited January 8, 2019 by rjnakata
thanks

[Lurch]

3 hours ago, Jack M said:

Did some back to back runs on the Vistflex on loan from Bola, and a Donek AF on loan from @~tb today

Really good stuff Jack. Look forward to the next installment. Not sure if you have the hardware to allow a back-to-back test of a plate mounted 4x4 V's UPM, but it would be a nice addition to the data set for those (majority?) without the UPM option.