Plate's effect on board?

[lowrider]

2 hours ago, Jack M said:

I think you should try a plate.  I can arrange that.

Jack if he takes you up on your offer make sure the conditions are terrible the day he is trying it.                                                                                                                                                 Perhaps heading should be plates effect on a rider. A well constructed plate should not impede a boards ability to carve but allow it to do what it is designed to do without influence .

[trailertrash]

1 minute ago, lowrider said:

Jack if he takes you up on your offer make sure the conditions are terrible the day he is trying it.

He won't. Even if he does, he will take one run on it and decide it's garbage and never try it again....

 

[Beckmann AG]

1 hour ago, Jack M said:

Says you!

Indeed.

Given that you (and others) find pedaling on a naked board useful , (and I don't), I'm looking for insight and practical answers as to why.

Your experience/opinion is certainly a good data point as to preferences, but doesn't do much to address the mechanical underpinnings.

Deflecting the question is, therefore,  a 'dodge'.

Regardless, thanks for the offer, but I need to devote my diminished hill time toward becoming a better rider, rather than following a trend(s) that might simply allow me to believe I'm a better rider. 

 

[lowrider]

13 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

 

Regardless, thanks for the offer, but I need to devote my diminished hill time toward becoming a better rider, rather than following a trend(s) that might simply allow me to believe I'm a better rider. 

 

 Ouch !                                                                                                                                                    I can't say pedaling is actually helpful it's something my body seems to  want to do when nothing else is firing the neurons necessary to extricate me from a given problem. Lets call it my boarders fight or flight response. It's like wiggling the shifter when the clutch is in pointless but lots of people do it.

[Beckmann AG]

3 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

If that happens, I for one, would love to see decent quality video of it.

How do you suppose it might appear different from extant footage?  

 

6 minutes ago, lowrider said:

Ouch !

I thought you said you weren't going to fuse your ankles?

Edited January 9, 2019 by Beckmann AG

[daveo]

21 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

I need to devote my diminished hill time toward becoming a better rider, rather than following a trend(s) that might simply allow me to believe I'm a better rider. 

 

I'm all about things making me look good when I'm simply bad. Story of my life.

My motto #allthegearbutnoidea

18 minutes ago, lowrider said:

It's like wiggling the shifter when the clutch is in pointless but lots of people do it.

Isn't that to check the gear lever is in the middle of the H without looking at it?

[Corey]

29 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

Regardless, thanks for the offer, but I need to devote my diminished hill time toward becoming a better rider

Are you open to the option that you may learn something unexpected?  If the answer is no, then don't bother.

I'm surprised by the resistance to try something new given your deep analysis of other aspects of the sport. 

[Beckmann AG]

55 minutes ago, Corey said:

Are you open to the option that you may learn something unexpected?  If the answer is no, then don't bother.

I'm surprised by the resistance to try something new given your deep analysis of other aspects of the sport. 

You're mistaking adherence to a particular path of inquiry for resistance.

Believe as you like,  I've learned quite a bit along that path. Some of which you may find useful in time. Some of which you might already have.

 Isolation plates per se, aren't new, and one need not slavishly flog one about in order to comprehend their function or efficacy. Part of that 'deep analysis' you cite involves actually understanding how varied/various systems work in conjunction with biomechanics etc.

I'd be more inclined to use one if/when 

1. I can't extract any more performance out of myself, and/or a 'conventional' setup.

2. I see clear evidence that the use of a plate has advanced riding technique.

Meanwhile, there's no point in adding weight and complexity to the system for mere entertainment. 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2019 by Beckmann AG

[SunSurfer]

1 hour ago, Beckmann AG said:

Regardless, thanks for the offer, but I need to devote my diminished hill time toward becoming a better rider, rather than following a trend(s) that might simply allow me to believe I'm a better rider. 

@Beckmann AG  So let me get this straight. You want to become a better rider. You believe that "pedaling" is not useful. You seem to accept that for experienced,  skilled and insightful  riders, like Corey & Jack Michaud, riding a stiff isocline plate can reveal that pedalling had been occurring even if the rider had up until then been unaware. And it appears that that same plate can then force you to make good turns without pedalling, as Jack learned to make shorter turns in time while using his plate. So that the plate in fact helped train his biomechanics. 

But you don't want to ride one. 

Parallel example. I ride a Softride Qualifier framed bicycle. Search online for images, but it's a "beam" bike with a cantilevered carbon fibre seat rail extending out of the the steering head. There is no conventional seat tube. If you pedal on it by plunging your legs up & down your backside oscillates up and down in a very disturbing way. If you spin your pedals properly the motion disappears. It is a biomechanical feedback device to train you to pedal properly, which I now do on my bikes without the Softride design.

Personally I'd like to see video of you ride because the videos on your website, are by modern standards of resolution akin to those put out by people claiming to have seen the Loch Ness Monster, the Sasquatch, or the Abominable Snowman. I could learn a good deal more by seeing you clearly put into practice what you teach.

 

[noschoolrider]

1 hour ago, Beckmann AG said:

Isolation plates per se, aren't new, and one need not slavishly flog one about in order to comprehend their function or efficacy. Part of that 'deep analysis' you cite involves actually understanding how varied/various systems work in conjunction with biomechanics etc.

I'd be more inclined to use one if/when 

1. I can't extract any more performance out of myself, and/or a 'conventional' setup.

2. I see clear evidence that the use of a plate has advanced riding technique.

Meanwhile, there's no point in adding weight and complexity to the system for mere entertainment.

It's not just "for mere entertainment", there is clear evidence that the use of a plate improves performance.

Some advantages of modern plates are:

1. Enhance the performance of a snowboard
    (a) increase edge hold/grip/tracking
    (b) increase the ability to accelerate when coming out of a turn (good for racing)

2. Reduce rider fatigue and increase rider stability by reducing the amount and intensity of vibrations the rider feels

Edited January 9, 2019 by noschoolrider

[daveo]

Ah love me a good ol' fashioned necklacing 

[pokkis]

6 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

I've been searching for the full dimensions of the AllFlex insert pattern and not been able to find it. I know that the across the board distance varies between the Slalom & GS specced plates. 

AllFlex 784mm and "axle" distance i have is 83cm

[SunSurfer]

Thanks Pokkis,  Hope your 83cm design doesn't result in you breaking your board.  I broke my custom built (extended UPM insert set put in by BV) 2012 Coiler NSR GS board with my 72cm axle design. 

That 784mm may be the biggest reason for the AllFlex plate's success. That is the length of the midsection of the board that is now torsionally stiffer, and the parts extending beyond that will have gradually increasing torsional deflection. But a very large percentage of the boards effective edge is being held at very close to same angle. 

The standard BBP has a max at 63cm. Benjamin Karl's original looked shorter still.

[pokkis]

I use std AllFlex inserts, mechanics just adds few cm more so i get floating bushings away under bindings.

And yes, i hope i dont break my board

[Jack M]

8 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Indeed.

Given that you (and others) find pedaling on a naked board useful , (and I don't), I'm looking for insight and practical answers as to why.

Your experience/opinion is certainly a good data point as to preferences, but doesn't do much to address the mechanical underpinnings.

Deflecting the question is, therefore,  a 'dodge'.

Regardless, thanks for the offer, but I need to devote my diminished hill time toward becoming a better rider, rather than following a trend(s) that might simply allow me to believe I'm a better rider. 

 

All in good fun, my friend.  But I don't think you're reading me.  I didn't say I found pedaling useful.  I don't try to do it while carving.  Being placed on a platform that reduces the ability to pedal or eliminates it altogether (in the case of the old BP) is a sudden and dramatic reality check.  Pedaling just happens whether you realize it or not.  You cannot say for certain whether you do or don't until you try one of these plates.

I did address a mechanical point to pedaling - the ability to change edge grip between the front and back regions of the board.  Why do we do this?  Well I'm not exactly sure, but I think we do it more when we're trying to quickly change edges.

I don't deny I dodged your question, but the point of the dodge was that it's pretty pointless to write a dissertation in response to your conjectures about plates when you haven't tried one.  Try one, and then we can have a discussion. You cannot say this is a trend, or much else about them, really, without trying one.  You'll probably be embarrassed, as I was, to realize how much you're actually pedaling and warping the board.  Refusing to try one is a dodge too, wouldn't you say? 

Even if you don't end up buying one, and I fully expect you won't, it would be a good practice tool to get you out of your comfort zone and expand your horizons.  Like the exercises you have prescribed like riding with a bamboo pole or with your boots unbuckled or with your hands behind your back.

In fact I don't think you or most people here, including me until yesterday when I got some insight from Jason Patel at Apex, realize exactly how plates work and what happens to them in actual use.  They do not simply span the arc of the flexing board.  More on that later.

Plates are not a placebo.  Frankly my mind was blown by how much more edge grip I had on Monday's firm, miserable conditions.  More than I have ever felt on any board, ever.  John said screw it after 3 runs and left.  Typically I would have too.  Instead I had more than fun, I had a day for the season, which I will never forget.  I had to take breaks on the side of the trail just to process my thoughts.  I am actually losing sleep over how excited I am for this new toy.  Like that night after Christmas when I got my Atari 2600.

This thread is so juicy.  It reminds me of this book on experimentation.  You've probably read it, but I think you should review it.  It's a quick read by the preeminent child psychologist of our time.

[pow4ever]

Love it.  Civil and Passionated discussion is what get me back to this site over and over again.
Disagreement/Different point of view are good for the evolution of our beloved sport.
 

[lowrider]

2 hours ago, pow4ever said:

Love it.  Civil and Passionated discussion is what get me back to this site over and over again.
Disagreement/Different point of view are good for the evolution of our beloved sport.
 

If that's all your looking for your missing the point. This is actually a deeply disguised political thread now guess who the characters are .

[Beckmann AG]

17 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

@Beckmann AG  So let me get this straight. You want to become a better rider. You believe that "pedaling" is not useful. You seem to accept that for experienced,  skilled and insightful  riders, like Corey & Jack Michaud, riding a stiff isocline plate can reveal that pedalling had been occurring even if the rider had up until then been unaware. And it appears that that same plate can then force you to make good turns without pedalling, as Jack learned to make shorter turns in time while using his plate. So that the plate in fact helped train his biomechanics. 

But you don't want to ride one. 

Parallel example. I ride a Softride Qualifier framed bicycle. Search online for images, but it's a "beam" bike with a cantilevered carbon fibre seat rail extending out of the the steering head. There is no conventional seat tube. If you pedal on it by plunging your legs up & down your backside oscillates up and down in a very disturbing way. If you spin your pedals properly the motion disappears. It is a biomechanical feedback device to train you to pedal properly, which I now do on my bikes without the Softride design.

Personally I'd like to see video of you ride because the videos on your website, are by modern standards of resolution akin to those put out by people claiming to have seen the Loch Ness Monster, the Sasquatch, or the Abominable Snowman. I could learn a good deal more by seeing you clearly put into practice what you teach.

 

1. I am becoming a better rider, (and also a better skier), following a particular path if inquiry that others might find amusing.

2. Pedaling can be useful, but I've not found the need to make use of that particular action. Possibly because I prefer to put a little more effort into equipment configuration, and that diligence obviates the 'need' for pedaling.

3. I don't doubt that experienced riders would make a discovery as to their 'naked board' tendencies when riding an isocline.

4. If a rider isn't pedaling without a plate, that rider likely won't feel the need to pedal on a plate, assuming the board is otherwise well matched to their needs.

5. What has you thinking that I need to refine my biomechanics to work with a plate, and in the event they did need that refinement, why would a plate be a requirement? Hopefully it's not the errant assumption that if you do it, and other 'experienced' riders do it, then everyone must do it?

6. Not opposed to plates, not opposed to using one. Simply don't see the need at this time, and more to the point, whether or not I use a plate is not relevant to the question I asked at the outset.

---

I'm familiar with the Allsop/Softride suspension beam. If memory serves, Pro rider Tom Schuler raced one for at least a season, and found great success, especially for criterium events. (Might have been someone else, but his name comes to mind)

Probably would have done better in the marketplace if it didn't look so odd, and if someone hadn't nicknamed it the 'Beaver Lever'.

 I have no doubt that system can be used as a tool to develop a better spin. 

Alternately, one can get more than adequate feedback by riding on a partially inflated rear tire, spending time on training rollers, riding an FS frame with low air pressure in the rear shock, and also taking a thorough look into the articulations of the lower extremities, and then paying particular attention to foot support, cleat canting, cleat location, and seat location. All of which will have some effect on a rider's ability to spin with fluidity. A 'blocky' spin can be caused by simple lack of coordination, but also by the various muscle groups trying to do two conflicting tasks at the same time.

Generally, there's more than one way to reach a particular goal. Sometimes it's different gear, sometimes it's doing a little more thinking. In the event it's not obvious, I prefer the latter, and in the event that's not obvious, it's worked out very well for both myself, and my clients.

I agree that the video on my site is of poor quality. Forgive me for that, as it's what I had at the time. I have since posted excerpts of more recent footage to the forum on several occasions. If you can't find them, let me know and I'll provide a link.

 

[lowrider]

I've never told anyone i was a better skier, boarder, skwaller or gt rider. I have however always tried different things when it comes to snow sports. It simply amazes me how many people who are excellent in their field in one discipline won't at least try to transfer that skill by trying another. I have had people conclude they wouldn't be good at it or their spouse was against it. The striking conclusion that i and my son have come to is that it illustrates that there is a profound difference between a plate and no plate. What you do with that information is entirely up to the individual but i do not understand why one wouldn't want more information about a sport one is passionate about.

[Beckmann AG]

18 hours ago, noschoolrider said:

It's not just "for mere entertainment", there is clear evidence that the use of a plate improves performance.

Some advantages of modern plates are:

1. Enhance the performance of a snowboard
    (a) increase edge hold/grip/tracking
    (b) increase the ability to accelerate when coming out of a turn (good for racing)

2. Reduce rider fatigue and increase rider stability by reducing the amount and intensity of vibrations the rider feels

In context, my use of Jack's plate would serve only as entertainment. I would be entertaining his assumptions, and he would presumably be entertained by my riding 'new tech'.

No argument on points a) and b). Those are already canon, though there may not be clear understanding as to why, or whether some of the effects of a plate can be had without. I.e., your statement regarding vibration may have less to do with vibration fatigue as one might find in early generation aluminum road bike frames, and more to do with how the neuromuscular system interprets and reacts to particular types of vibration.

E.g., Isometric contraction deployed as a means of finding stability can generate considerable fatigue over a short span of time.

[noschoolrider]

12 hours ago, Jack M said:

I did address a mechanical point to pedaling - the ability to change edge grip between the front and back regions of the board.  Why do we do this?  Well I'm not exactly sure, but I think we do it more when we're trying to quickly change edges.

What is often referred to as pedaling in the alpine snowboard community is called twist (torsional twist) by the majority of the snowboard industry.

I have had the pleasure of working with ski and snowboard instructors/racers/coaches from all over the world.  Every major snowboard association's current instructor manual that I know of covers torsional twist and how it can be used in snowboarding.  You can also see examples of this in the carving videos from the Japanese demonstration team and you can read about it in the Snowboard Instruction New Zealand (SBINZ) manual at https://www.nzsia.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/SBINZ_Manual_2017.pdf

I don't agree with all of the teaching dogma, however I have listed some uses of pedaling/twist (even for torsionally stiffer alpine/race boards) below:

1. You can use pedaling/twist to subtlety adjust (or fine tune) the snowboard's tracking/stability (e.g. if you're running the board flat at high speed and it starts to drift/wobble you can use pedaling/twist to make the board track straight instead of committing to setting/pressuring an entire edge).

2. If you are on a set edge and you only move your back foot/ankle/knee/hip in the opposite direction of the set edge you can drift/skid/pivot the back of the board with less rotary force while keeping the board in a tighter corridor (and on a higher line) than if you moved both feet/ankles/knees/hips in the opposite direction of the set edge.

3. If you initiate a turn by moving your front foot/ankle/knee/hip in the direction of the turn (before moving the back foot/ankle/knee/hip) it can make it very easy to initiate the turn without actively transferring any additional weight.

Many alpine snowboarders think they move both feet/ankles/knees/hips at the same time when initiating turns (and edging), which also might be why some snowboarders think they never pedal/twist the board.

People often do not realize how much they use something until it's taken away from them - like when they get on a snowboard (or plate) that has so much torsional rigidity it won't allow them to pedal/twist the board.  This is most likely why (in that situation) snowboarders feel that controlling the board becomes more difficult at slower speeds and that they need to use gross/exaggerated/inefficient movements to achieve the same results.  Even racers like Chris Klug have made similar statements about riding boards that had too much torsional rigidity.

[lowrider]

What technique do you use when the groom makes your teeth chatter and you jaw ache ? Some give up and go home i bring out the plate.

[Beckmann AG]

Jack,

I had a nice response typed up for your earlier post, but it seems to have vanished.

 

 

[SunSurfer]

On 1/7/2019 at 12:34 PM, daveo said:

For what it's worth, Marcel at Oxess makes boards softer when they are going to be used with a plate. 

So reflect now on what a plate can do to the ability of a board to (a) flex and (b) twist and how that might affect the choices a builder makes in its' construction.

Before isolation plates a builder had to try to build for SCR, flex(ibility), & twist(resistance).  With greater flex generally comes greater twist, even with biased layout of the reinforcing materials. And the converse, a board with great twist resistance will be less flex(ible) as well.

With a board designed/planned to be ridden with a plate, the designer/builder can build for SCR and flex, knowing that the plate will provide significant additional resistance to twist in the mid-section of the board. And hence, Marcel at Oxess can do what is reported above.

 

[Jack M]

22 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

In context, my use of Jack's plate would serve only as entertainment. I would be entertaining his assumptions, and he would presumably be entertained by my riding 'new tech'.

No, it would broaden your horizons.  I would be entertained, but that's beside the point.

22 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

No argument on points a) and b). Those are already canon, though there may not be clear understanding as to why

Same reasons suspension is good for downhill mountain bikes, and other conveyances.

20 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

I had a nice response typed up for your earlier post, but it seems to have vanished.

That's a pity.  I'd love to see it when you get a chance.