Plate's effect on board?

[daveo]

1 hour ago, rjnakata said:

Judging from what folks were saying I thought I'd have to learn how to ride again.  On the contrary it seemed to help me ride better in both smooth and rougher terrain.

Yep, I felt the same as you on my Apex 

Edited January 8, 2019 by daveo

[Jack M]

8 hours ago, rjnakata said:

OP here, thanks for all of your insight!   I too am eagerly awaiting Jack's full review also.

My first day on a plate today (BP lite) on Coiler AM 169-tight, choppy new snow (1-3"), smallish resort, ok grooming, then tracked out in the afternoon.  

To me it felt very familiar with not many of the reported downsides (no low speed difficulty, no loss of snow feel etc).  It certainly helped me negotiate the chop.  My legs were about 1/4 less tired at the end of the day as compared to no plate.  I felt the plate helped with turn radius (smaller) and with edge grip (maybe that's just more confidence on the cruddy surface).  Surprisingly it didn't feel too heavy on the lift either.

Judging from what folks were saying I thought I'd have to learn how to ride again.  On the contrary it seemed to help me ride better in both smooth and rougher terrain.

Sounds like the 4mm BP lite is the better BP.  The 5mm original was very difficult for me to skid and maneuver when not purely carving.  I would definitely give credit for the increased edge grip to the plate.  I was blown away yesterday by the extra grip.  Dare I say the Donek AF is the magic silver bullet on ice I've been waiting for.  Hoping the Apex is on par... just because it's so sexy... I like CF.

[daveo]

The first plate I ride was a Donek AF. Pity I broke the hardware on the first day. 

Was hoping the Allflex Apex X-Plate was going to be with both ends floating like an Allflex. Apparently it's a fixed/sliding thingy like the UPM/4x4 version.

Edited January 8, 2019 by daveo

[Corey]

1 hour ago, Jack M said:

Sounds like the 4mm BP lite is the better BP.  The 5mm original was very difficult for me to skid and maneuver when not purely carving.

I demo'ed all versions of the Bomber plate back-to-back on the same day on the same board.  

5mm - Oh crap, I'm going mach 10 and feel like I can't skid

4mm - Oh crap, I'm going mach 5 and feel like skidding is hard

4mm Lite - Whoa, I'm going mach 2 but can skid and have more fine control while sideslipping into a tight spot.  

Consistent between all of them: Little bumps just went away.  Kind of eerie, but nice.  Most noticeable when taking the plate off and going back to a naked board.  I never would have believed that I pedaled a board until something restricted it.  

I need to remember to try that plate again when it's icy.  I also thought about putting some kind of bumpers inboard from the axles, so that the plate is touching the board when it's decambered.  I think that's part of the 'magic' of the AllFlex plate.  The narrow UPM holes on my Bomber plate are unused, so this shouldn't be too hard, once I get the motivation to take it from thought to reality. 

[pokkis]

3 hours ago, Jack M said:

Hoping the Apex is on par... just because it's so sexy... I like CF.

Here is 90cm sexy CF, i like it.

[Missionman]

So, i am sure this question has asked before, but would using any of the plates help or hinder a still-learning carver? 

I've been curious to buy one, but thought I should get (a lot) better plateless  before I even considered getting one.   (The weight thing without footrests would bug me though, as I really feel that in my knees on the lift)  

[lowrider]

I'm going to jump in and suggest that the major reason a stiff plate scares the hell out of everyone is the fact it doesn't allow for peddling. For the most part lots of people deny it as a factor in their riding but i think due to the fact we are not robots not everyone rides by the same data points and therefore peddling it is a huge factor in centering yourself while riding dynamically. The inability to influence the board (peddle) on a stiff plate impedes your ability to ride dynamically and for me that translates into a scary ride ! With more time spent on a plate and the confidence that experience gives it might be possible to return to a more ridged plate. The biggest advantage a plate can provide is the confidence that it will get you through whatever you are pointed at over that of a board without a plate. ( I will preface the above with " In less than ideal conditions" )

8 minutes ago, Missionman said:

So, i am sure this question has asked before, but would using any of the plates help or hinder a still-learning carver? 

I've been curious to buy one, but thought I should get (a lot) better plate less  before I even considered getting one.   (The weight thing without footrests would bug me though, as I really feel that in my knees on the lift)  

A plate is just another tool to do a job. Not required for learning but helpful to extend the time on the hill without getting beat up by bad groom.                                                                  

[Beckmann AG]

57 minutes ago, lowrider said:

For the most part lots of people deny it as a factor in their riding but i think due to the fact we are not robots not everyone rides by the same data points and therefore peddling it is a huge factor in centering yourself while riding dynamically. The inability to influence the board (peddle) on a stiff plate impedes your ability to ride dynamically and for me that translates into a scary ride !

Valid observation, but why should one actually have to pedal in order to control the board, or to feel comfortable maneuvering it?

From where I'm standing, pedaling is like foot pronation, in that a common structural anomaly becomes a statistical norm, and is therefore seen as a core function.

[Jack M]

34 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

Valid observation, but why should one actually have to pedal in order to control the board, or to feel comfortable maneuvering it?

One example - getting the board to point dowhill from a sideslip.  You probably pedal briefly, among other things, in order to let the nose slide while the tail grips.

For carving, I have never consciously tried to pedal my board.  I didn't think I was pedaling, until I tried a plate for the first time.  I don't think pedaling is a necessary tool for carving, but we just do it naturally.  I think it is necessary for steering, skidding, and maneuvering a snowboard.  Which is why plates that completely prevent pedaling are especially awkward for anything but strictly carving.

[pow4ever]

2 hours ago, Missionman said:

So, i am sure this question has asked before, but would using any of the plates help or hinder a still-learning carver? 

Just my humble 2 cents.  How do you define still-learning?
Skip plate for now as it's something that required tweaking.  I am very easily confuse so I try to keep things stupid simple.
At the minimum:  try plate on trail you are comfortable without.
On good condition:  plate don't make much difference.
Plate excel on choppy/icy condition:  it filter out some less desirable noise/feedback which I think is needed to dial in one's technique.

This is a great thread/topic!  Thank you all for pitching in.

Paging John @jp1  Maker of the Gizmo Plate (preceded/similar to Gecko plate)  You will get a kick out of it:  Now the peddler are coming out of the wood work lol. 
I still don't know what peddling(independent moving of the front/back foot, twist the board) is but then most of the time I don't know what I am doing anyway.

I rode JJA plate for a bit; didn't feel I needed to change how I ride.  I do feel the "smoothness" on sub optimal condition but I find good technique/commit to your turn does most of it.  My knee, leg are used to the punishment:  For me the extra weight, complication wasn't worth it.

[lowrider]

1 hour ago, Beckmann AG said:

Valid observation, but why should one actually have to pedal in order to control the board, or to feel comfortable maneuvering it?

From where I'm standing, pedaling is like foot pronation, in that a common structural anomaly becomes a statistical norm, and is therefore seen as a core function.

 

[lowrider]

Valid question but why does ones body feel like the board isn't responding when you try to peddle it into position.? My answer is i don't thing your body knows what it's doing when it cones to trying to control the board once you bolt a plate to it . It just knows you put a plate on it so that has to be the problem . The answer is i'm twisting the damn thing all over the place and it's not responding. Best way i've found to challenge my mind over matter dilemma ( don't think of a pink elephant) was to get back to basics relax, neutral stance, stay low angulate and initiate. Trust the Plate to do it's thing.

[Corey]

Jack summed up my thoughts well.  I only notice the effects of pedalling while slipping.  Feathering into/out of a carve, changing board direction while skidding.   Example of the latter: A group of boarders all stopped at the top of a park, and you have to slip your way through them.  To control such things with weight transfers is awkward, slow, and coarse, which a stiff plate seems to demand.  

I've consciously played with pedalling while carving.  The effects seem rather miniscule compared to fore-aft weight shifts and vertical loading.  

[Beckmann AG]

3 hours ago, Jack M said:

One example - getting the board to point dowhill from a sideslip.  You probably pedal briefly, among other things, in order to let the nose slide while the tail grips.

 I'm reasonably certain that I don't pedal my board when starting out, and most certainly don't pedal the 'support' ski when I depart from a one-footed position in similar circumstance. Further, I've noticed over the years that boards (of a given length) stiffer in torsion (but not in flexion) tend to be easier to maneuver in 'closer quarters'; most likely because they resist responding to errant twisting inputs, and therefore are less prone to compromising the more tenuous state of equilibrium that follows a lack of momentum.

Further more, of the many times I've introduced enthusiasts to snowboarding from point zero, I've never suggested they pedal the board, nor have they exhibited much need to do so; and in fact find that the platform behaves more consistently when they specifically try not to.

Certainly a plate will have an effect on a rider's inputs, intentional or otherwise. One has to wonder though, if some of the control issues associated with isoclines has more to do with the geometry/flex of a particular board as relates to rider weight and stance preference, and less to do with an inherent 'need' to pedal at slower speed.

This:

3 hours ago, Jack M said:

Which is why plates that completely prevent pedaling are especially awkward for anything but strictly carving.

Supports this:

3 hours ago, Jack M said:

I think it is necessary for steering, skidding, and maneuvering a snowboard.

But neither answers the question as to why pedaling in general should be necessary. 

That said, I've noticed that of the many softbooters I've been privileged to work with, those that feel a distinct need to pedal are configured on their boards in such a way as to require differential inputs. E.G., feet too far apart, and or insufficient binding setback. In this situation, pedaling is the required/accessible work-around.

2 hours ago, lowrider said:

I don't thing your body knows what it's doing......It just knows you put a plate on it so that has to be the problem .

What if the problem is a reliance on pedaling, and the plate is simply making that more obvious?

2 hours ago, lowrider said:

... to challenge my mind over matter dilemma ... Trust the Plate to do it's thing.

One of the greater challenges is the difficulty in accepting that the 'sliding device' will do amazing things if we don't actively prevent it from doing so.  I.e.,  providing inputs which seem rational but are, in fact, merely habit; and for the most part, counterproductive.

[Jack M]

9 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

stuff

I think you should try a plate.  I can arrange that.

[SunSurfer]

5 minutes ago, Jack M said:

I think you should try a plate.  I can arrange that.

If that happens, I for one, would love to see decent quality video of it.

[Beckmann AG]

6 minutes ago, Jack M said:

I think you should try a plate.  I can arrange that.

Nice dodge.

[lowrider]

29 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

 

What if the problem is a reliance on pedaling, and the plate is simply making that more obvious?

 

I am willing to accept your premise but unwilling to have my ankles fused to prove the point either way !

[SunSurfer]

6 hours ago, pokkis said:

Here is 90cm sexy CF, i like it.

@pokkis Did I see correctly where you said your interaxle distance on one of your design plates was 83cm? I'd got out to 72cm on one of mine with the axles essentially at the ends of a modified BBP 4mm CF plate.

 

[daveo]

@SunSurfer Allflex inserts

[SunSurfer]

I'm bemused that lots of people don't distinguish between

a) what a plate does to the board's function and how that relates to the design features of said plate.

b) what is the rider's experience of riding a plated board.

1 minute ago, daveo said:

@SunSurfer Allflex inserts

I've been searching for the full dimensions of the AllFlex insert pattern and not been able to find it. I know that the across the board distance varies between the Slalom & GS specced plates.

[daveo]

20 minutes ago, SunSurfer said:

I've been searching for the full dimensions of the AllFlex insert pattern and not been able to find it. I know that the across the board distance varies between the Slalom & GS specced plates.

I'll measure mine up in a bit. 

[Jack M]

58 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

Nice dodge.

Says you!

[Randy Kight]

 

21 hours ago, Jack M said:

I will also say that the Vistflex made the board carve longer, and the Donek AF made it carve shorter, which is consistent with my feelings about isolation plates above.  Can't wait to try the Apex, and can't wait to try the UPM plates on my longer boards too.  A new light has dawned upon my carving life!

And I can't wait to hear about the results Jack!  @daveo has had me thinking about trying these since last season. 

[Randy Kight]

So @Jack M, would you suggest Sean's plate you seemed to like so much for a more casual carver on narrower runs...south of you?  Easier to comfortably "manipulate" (skid, etc.) than others?  Do you feel the UPM insert vs the 4x4 insert makes/made a difference?