Plate's effect on board?

[Randy Kight]

So @Jack M, what are your latest thoughts regarding your plate trial?  Anxious to hear when you get to that point.

 

 

[Beckmann AG]

  

6 hours ago, Jack M said:

No, it would broaden your horizons.  I would be entertained, but that's beside the point.

Same reasons suspension is good for downhill mountain bikes, and other conveyances.

 

Right. I'm devoid of varied experience. Can't help but wonder how much more I might have accomplished by now if only I'd been more curious about things.

Suspension systems as seen on DH bikes and other conveyances aren't input modifiers, and plates don't convert motion to heat.  Again:

On 1/9/2019 at 6:58 PM, Beckmann AG said:

there may not be clear understanding as to why

 

6 hours ago, Jack M said:

That's a pity.  I'd love to see it when you get a chance.

I've got a salvage dive team on the case. Should know if they've found any revenants shortly.

[Jack M]

21 hours ago, Randy Kight said:

So @Jack M, what are your latest thoughts regarding your plate trial?  Anxious to hear when you get to that point.

Tried the Apex X-plate today, it was awesome.  Its low height and light weight made it virtually disappear.  Snow conditions are much better now after a 13" dump, a couple nights of grooming, and a deep freeze, but there is some great firm chalk and I did manage to find a few patches of ice and the plate handled them with aplomb.  Spectacular piece of kit, but for a premium.  Trying Allflex tomorrow.

[lonbordin]

18 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

  Right. I'm devoid of varied experience. Can't help but wonder how much more I might have accomplished by now if only I'd been more curious about things.

Never too late to turn it around man...

Edited January 11, 2019 by lonbordin
this is a joke people.... EB is a great and varied dude... he just lacks time on a plate. :-D

[Randy Kight]

1 hour ago, Jack M said:

Tried the Apex X-plate today, it was awesome.  Its low height and light weight made it virtually disappear.  Snow conditions are much better now after a 13" dump, a couple nights of grooming, and a deep freeze, but there is some great firm chalk and I did manage to find a few patches of ice and the plate handled them with aplomb.  Spectacular piece of kit, but for a premium.  Trying Allflex tomorrow.

Thanks for the update. Very interested in hearing about tomorrow and your thoughts overall after riding the different makes.  I’ve always been interested, but hesitant after comments from many that mirror your initial thoughts after trying Fins original stuff. 

[Beckmann AG]

 

On 1/9/2019 at 6:23 AM, Jack M said:

I didn't say I found pedaling useful.

Yet this reads like a statement of utility:

I think it is necessary for steering, skidding, and maneuvering a snowboard.  Which is why plates that completely prevent pedaling are especially awkward for anything but strictly carving.

On 1/9/2019 at 6:23 AM, Jack M said:

Pedaling just happens whether you realize it or not.  You cannot say for certain whether you do or don't until you try one of these plates.

Despite your considerable experience on a board, all that you’ve experienced is not universal.

On 1/9/2019 at 6:23 AM, Jack M said:

...it's pretty pointless to write a dissertation in response to your conjectures about plates when you haven't tried one.  Try one, and then we can have a discussion. You cannot say this is a trend, or much else about them, really, without trying one. 

What I've typed to date is hardly conjecture, and to extend your reasoning, almost everything I’ve ever written or said about riding softboots should be discarded out of hand. As if it’s not possible to reach an understanding of a system or component thereof without ‘seat of the pants’ testing? Do I really need to test snowblades in order to form a conclusion you'll accept?

To the point of my original question, I know that boards grip/perform better when they run true, and recognize the obvious place a plate holds in preventing torsional distortion for performance applications. My testing your plate at this time isn’t going to change that, nor is it going to change my understanding that if one can ‘work’ to avoid twisting a board in the absence of a plate, that rider will see a distinct benefit.

Years ago, you spent enough time instructing to realize that eliminating excess movements found in the low momentum context can pay dividends in the high energy context. Given your recent, rather abrupt realization that your technique isn’t fully optimized, I thought the mechanics behind the prevalence of intentional twisting in snowboarding might be worth discussing.

On 1/9/2019 at 6:23 AM, Jack M said:

You'll probably be embarrassed, as I was, to realize how much you're actually pedaling and warping the board.

Probably not, as I’ve made distinct efforts (by way of boot modification), to reduce/eliminate board distortion. Have also spent an inordinate amount of time maneuvering at slow speeds with only one foot attached. So I’m reasonably aware of what’s going on between the board and snow; and which foot is doing what, and when.

Your surprise discovery of what was going on under your feet pre-plate isn't that surprising. If you’re riding ‘current technology’, with metal laminate and some nose de-camber, those features mute feedback and smooth out some of the byproducts of pedaling while ‘in the cut’.  It stands to reason that if you’re not noticing board twist while arcing, you’re probably not noticing it in a lower energy context either.

The latter may be subtle, but the former is visible from the chairlift.

On 1/9/2019 at 6:23 AM, Jack M said:

Plates are not a placebo.

Didn't say they were. Don't believe they are. Suggested they might find occasional use as something of a panacea. And their general use is trendy. (I looked it up).

On 1/9/2019 at 6:23 AM, Jack M said:

Frankly my mind was blown by how much more edge grip I had on Monday's firm, miserable conditions.  More than I have ever felt on any board, ever.   Instead I had more than fun, I had a day for the season, which I will never forget.  I had to take breaks on the side of the trail just to process my thoughts.  I am actually losing sleep over how excited I am for this new toy.

That’s certainly a good thing.  Had a similar experience with my current set of snow tires. (But those are tools, not toys.)

I hope you giggled a few times. It’s those periodic moments of discovery and inspiration that have kept me involved in the field for so many years.

Now that you know how a rider can inadvertently cause a board to lose grip on hard snow (thanks to the plate), you’re in a much better position to regain it on a naked board. When you accomplish that, then you’ll really have something to think about.

And maybe we’ll have something else to discuss.

Of course, I’d still like to know why pedaling is viewed as a ‘necessary’ element of riding a board. Pontification on the existence/codification of pedaling is not quite the same as a well-founded explanation as to the mechanical principles involved.

Is it:

Platform width?

Distance between the feet?

Setback/offset/splay?

Interface geometry?

Millennials?

Lack of imagination?

A player to be named later?

There has to be something, given that a board is essentially a wide ski, and it doesn’t appear anyone is promoting the twisting of skis on the long axis in the search for greater maneuverability/response/etc.

[BlueB]

The answer is - the skiers can't, so they don't... The twist is just another extra tool we've got on snowboard. I think it is usefull in non-carving applications, especially at lower speeds. I know that I preffer my freeride boards to be less tortionally stiff then my carving only boards... 

[SunSurfer]

Might be time for a new thread on the Analysis of Rider Induced Board Twist. Otherwise this thread will lose its' focus on the effect of an isolation/isocline plate on the board, and the rider's experience with an isolation plate installed.

[Jack M]

8 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Do I really need to test snowblades in order to form a conclusion you'll accept?

Gotta run, but if every world cup ski racer was using snowblades, yes, you would need to try them in order to form a valid conclusion.

Also I didn't say pedaling was useful for carving.

 

[lowrider]

9 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

 

 My testing your plate at this time isn’t going to change that, nor is it going to change my understanding that if one can ‘work’ to avoid twisting a board in the absence of a plate, that rider will see a distinct benefit.

 

Your surprise discovery of what was going on under your feet pre-plate isn't that surprising. If you’re riding ‘current technology’, with metal laminate and some nose de-camber, those features mute feedback and smooth out some of the byproducts of pedaling while ‘in the cut’.  It stands to reason that if you’re not noticing board twist while arcing, you’re probably not noticing it in a lower energy context either.

 

My experience and building plates took place before i had the benefit of a titinal ride. The discovery that a plate would enhance the positive aspects of a boards design while apparently muting the undesirable ones were a revelation one can only experience by trying a plate. Was it the actual peddling or my perception that i was peddling that made the difference. So much happens when you are riding i can't say that i am aware at all times what is actually happening in the moment but i did notice that what seemed desirable on a glass board transferred to a Titinal board when riding it with a plate. Ride a board with a plate on ice or boiler plate and ride the same board without a plate in the same conditions and tell me there isn't a difference that favors the plated board . I'm not claiming it's a panacea but a very useful tool for those of us who ride boiler plate resort snow. The fact that we are bipeds would lead me to conclude that somewhere in our primitive brains we are being told to peddle when transitioning from a heel side to toe side turn without a clear understanding of all the mechanics involved. It's simply a new experience for our slowly developing brains. In the larger scheme of things a few years of riding boards and plates wouldn't be enough to radically change brain development after thousands or millions of years of being slow moving bipeds.

[Corey]

One counterpoint to any theory invalidates that theory.  If you believe that your theory is correct and are not interested in testing it, do not search for that counterpoint.  If you want to test your theory for validity, actively search for that counterpoint.  

I believed that pedalling was not useful, right up until I tried a torsionally-stiff plate.  I also suspect that there is some interaction of the legs in fore-aft bending of the board.  Either the rider bending the board or the board bending the rider.  Removing that as well has benefits and drawbacks I can't fully describe. 

[daveo]

All this talk of pedalling makes me think I never did it/don't do it. I don't feel any difference at low speeds between using a plated or unplated board. Or perhaps I am not perceptive enough to feel the difference 

[lowrider]

22 minutes ago, daveo said:

All this talk of pedalling makes me think I never did it/don't do it. I don't feel any difference at low speeds between using a plated or unplated board. Or perhaps I am not perceptive enough to feel the difference 

I believe you can experience a similar effect (plate vs no plate)  when you ride TD1 bindings vs plastic bindings or TD3 Sidewinders.

[daveo]

Right. Don't think I'll ever experience that, though.

[Jack M]

Testing is going well... loving this FA Auxiliary jacket (@Speed cat) too... pic by @trailertrash

 

[lonbordin]

Bend it!

Edited January 15, 2019 by lonbordin
Nice shooting TT

[pow4ever]

bend + spray, this should be mark NSFW 

[daveo]

3 hours ago, Jack M said:

Testing is going well... loving this FA Auxiliary jacket (@Speed cat) too... pic by @trailertrash

 

What angles are you running? 

 

Love the reflection in your goggles. 

[Jack M]

1 hour ago, daveo said:

What angles are you running? 

About 60 and 57 as far as I can tell from Bomber markings. 

[BlueB]

2 hours ago, Jack M said:

Testing is going well... loving this FA Auxiliary jacket (@Speed cat) too... pic by @trailertrash

 

Wow, this is the best toe side carve pic I've seen in a long time! 

[pow4ever]

Poor pants 

Nice shot John.M! and Nice riding Jack. 

We have all seem you ride like this without a plate.
It's hard to quantify:
How much would you attributed to the plate?  5%? more or less?

Plate to me is an optimization statement.  For the racer/high level rider.  Squeeze every last bit of performance make sense.
For this keyboard carver; I hope one day I will evolved/progress to a point where I appreciated and need a plate.

[David Kirk]

I don't have that much time on different plates but that said there are a few distinct impressions I'm left with after using full floating plates.

I understand what people are saying when they say that a plate makes it difficult to control the board at very low speeds. We tend to use torsional flex to maintain balance and side slip or rotate a non carved walking-pace turn. That said I've not found this to be a big deal at all  for the place and way I ride.

The other big takeaway for me way that with a full-floating plate (like a Boiler or Donek) one can't actively de-camber the board to change the turn radius. I guess some call it "pedaling" but I have always thought of pedaling more in the torsional flex way and less of a bend-the-board-more way. I might just not be using the term "pedaling" properly.

Without ever knowing it I found, through the use of a plate, that I use my feet to change the shape of the board mid-turn to change turn shape/radius. Using a full floating plate drove this home for me. A full floater certainly allows for better edge hold on icy conditions but the down side is you lose one of the control inputs.

This is why I really want to try an Allflex at some point. The fact that it follows the board means that the rider doesn't give up that control technique while at the same time gives better edge hold and less vibration.

Interesting stuff.

dave

[SunSurfer]

41 minutes ago, pow4ever said:

Plate to me is an optimization statement.  For the racer/high level rider.  Squeeze every last bit of performance make sense.
For this keyboard carver; I hope one day I will evolved/progress to a point where I appreciated and need a plate.

You'll get older! 
Don't underestimate the fatigue reduction benefit, and the extension of your carveable riding day, both from fatigue reduction and from being able to carve snow in less than ideal conditions. 

[daveo]

1 hour ago, SunSurfer said:

You'll get older! 
Don't underestimate the fatigue reduction benefit, and the extension of your carveable riding day, both from fatigue reduction and from being able to carve snow in less than ideal conditions. 

This! 

My experience was a sprained ankle the run immediately after I removed the plate due to less than ideal conditions I didn't feel with the plate. Ridden one ever since! 

Edited January 15, 2019 by daveo

[Lurch]

Not much said yet about that extra couple of pounds (??) of plate hanging down there on the lift - must subtract some from the seeming upside of plate reducing rider fatigue?

  @Jack M it would be great if you could supply actual weight of each system at some stage.