Plate's effect on board?

[daveo]

1 hour ago, Beckmann AG said:

Throughout this thread, I’ve offered explanations of how things might work/do work, along with the suggestion that some of what appears ‘mysterious’ can be understood by studying like circumstances or mechanism.

Those thoughts have been met with incredulity/exasperation, overly simplistic/dismissive counter arguments, and what appears to be a willful misreading of my position.

This thread reminds me of the above clip.

Edited January 21, 2019 by daveo

[lowrider]

All of this thread or just  my parts of it ?

[Jack M]

10 hours ago, David Kirk said:

I hope you'll be writing about your feelings on the Allflex compared to the others - I'm very much interested in your thoughts.

dave

Frankly, I didn't enjoy the Allflex for freecarving.  It stiffens and dampens the board considerably.  I can see why this is good for racing, but for me this robbed a lot of the fun factor out of the board.  Maybe the K168 isn't a good board for it, maybe a true SL board would be a better match. @WinterGold certainly does well with that combination.

[David Kirk]

19 minutes ago, Jack M said:

Frankly, I didn't enjoy the Allflex for freecarving.  It stiffens and dampens the board considerably.  I can see why this is good for racing, but for me this robbed a lot of the fun factor out of the board.  Maybe the K168 isn't a good board for it, maybe a true SL board would be a better match. @WinterGold certainly does well with that combination.

Interesting isn't it?.....we want damping for obvious reasons but too much damping takes some of the fun out of it. I have a 20+ year old Rossi race room handbuilt board that has zero damping effect compared to modern boards. It vibrates and buzzes and is a lot of work to ride well....but holy crap is it fun when the stars align and the conditions are just right.

Sports cars are similar in a way....sometimes the car is so advanced that it requires less in the way of skill from the driver, and gives the driver less feedback, and this can mean it's brutally fast and boring at the same time. It's a real challenge for the designers - they need to make the car capable while at the same time building in a certain amount of challenge (not too little, not too much) so that the car is rewarding to drive. We want it raw so it feels fast but not too raw.

----------------

Did you find that the Allflex didn't allow the board to turn as tightly as it did with other plates or without a plate?

dave

 

[daveo]

1 hour ago, David Kirk said:

Interesting isn't it?.....we want damping for obvious reasons but too much damping takes some of the fun out of it. I have a 20+ year old Rossi race room handbuilt board that has zero damping effect compared to modern boards. It vibrates and buzzes and is a lot of work to ride well....but holy crap is it fun when the stars align and the conditions are just right.

Sports cars are similar in a way....sometimes the car is so advanced that it requires less in the way of skill from the driver, and gives the driver less feedback, and this can mean it's brutally fast and boring at the same time. It's a real challenge for the designers - they need to make the car capable while at the same time building in a certain amount of challenge (not too little, not too much) so that the car is rewarding to drive. We want it raw so it feels fast but not too raw.

----------------

Did you find that the Allflex didn't allow the board to turn as tightly as it did with other plates or without a plate?

dave

 

I guess I'm the only one who wants the dampest ride possible...

Off topic below:

But I hear you regarding cars, I think the R35 is a good example of a car being brutally fast but boring but I think the GT3 is an example of a car which is brutally fast and raw.

I'm hoping my new board and plate combo is my R35. 

I'm just a poor lowly researcher, can't afford any of that stuff. BUT a friend's father is in a car 'club' (from what I understand, they're just incredibly rich lol), so I've had the luck to tag along and usually see but sometimes drive a few of these things. Saw (not drove, will never drive anything like these) a silver (best colour, moroon and green are ugly), XJ220, Gulf livery 917K and an Auto Union Type C Hill Climb with the 4 tyres on the rear over the last 2 meets. Wew.

Meanwhile, my daily cruise is in the worst car out of everyone I know- 2009 Fiesta Zetec lol. 5min to work, 5min home.

Edited January 21, 2019 by daveo

[Corey]

This thread inspired me: I mounted up my Bomber 4mm Lite plate on a Donek Rev 163.  I forgot how flexible this plate is in bending.  It's neat how much it isolates the rider from small snow ripples/bumps/ridges/etc.  You can feel the vertical step as the axle hits, but allowing the nose to bend up without driving your front knee backwards means little effect on your center of mass or turn shape.  It makes the whole system more tolerant of errors.  

I don't care for the isolation.  It makes the whole thing feel like a video game.  Or, a bit like trying to do fine wood carving with oven mitts on.  That's where the newer plates must have evolved. 

Anyone know where to find bumpers that are about 2cm thick with female M5 threads in them?  Those would mount just behind the front binding in the plate's UPM holes.  Rather like the Apex plate pictured previously in this thread.  

[pokkis]

Corey, look for 18mm high skate bushings. Then put M6 screw thru plate and few nuts on bottom side, they keep bushing on place.

Look Riptide tall barrel, or similar

Duro 85 or 90 are good start.

Edited January 21, 2019 by pokkis

[David Kirk]

31 minutes ago, Corey said:

This thread inspired me: I mounted up my Bomber 4mm Lite plate on a Donek Rev 163.  I forgot how flexible this plate is in bending.  It's neat how much it isolates the rider from small snow ripples/bumps/ridges/etc.  You can feel the vertical step as the axle hits, but allowing the nose to bend up without driving your front knee backwards means little effect on your center of mass or turn shape.  It makes the whole system more tolerant of errors.  

I don't care for the isolation.  It makes the whole thing feel like a video game.  Or, a bit like trying to do fine wood carving with oven mitts on.  That's where the newer plates must have evolved. 

Anyone know where to find bumpers that are about 2cm thick with female M5 threads in them?  Those would mount just behind the front binding in the plate's UPM holes.  Rather like the Apex plate pictured previously in this thread.  

Check McMaster-Carr. You should be able to find bumpers of different durometers with a M6 threaded stud coming out so that you can just screw it in and be done.

 

dave

[Jack M]

5 hours ago, David Kirk said:

Interesting isn't it?.....we want damping for obvious reasons but too much damping takes some of the fun out of it. I have a 20+ year old Rossi race room handbuilt board that has zero damping effect compared to modern boards. It vibrates and buzzes and is a lot of work to ride well....but holy crap is it fun when the stars align and the conditions are just right. 

Agreed.  Your post reminds me of the time in 2000 (2001?) when I first tried a Donek (FC-II 171) at the ECES at Stowe.  No damping whatsoever; you could see through the topsheet and fiberglass to the wood core.  Just a shape that frigging worked (on the conditions at hand).  Blew my mind.  I had to have that board.

5 hours ago, David Kirk said:

Did you find that the Allflex didn't allow the board to turn as tightly as it did with other plates or without a plate? 

Yes.  Vistflex with rear locked and center posts was similar.

[Rob Stevens]

On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2019 at 6:58 PM, Beckmann AG said:

I'm going to assume you've been around long enough to see the (re)evolution of suspension systems in mtn biking.

As you may recall, the original Rockshox Mag 1 was barely adequate, and saw some competition in competition from both the Proflex elastomer stem, as well as the Allsop Flexstem used extensively by  Team Ritchey/Frischknecht et al.

Not much travel in any of those, just slightly better than nothing. 

The funny thing about the painfully gradual development of bicycle suspension forks is that all of the work had already been done with motorcycles ten years previous. 

The funny thing about snowboarding, and the lack of suspension development, is that all of the analogous work has already been done in both bicycles and motorcycles.

And yet here we are, touting the advantages of what amounts to a Proflex stem as an effective suspension system.

 

  

Having started MTB'ing in the rigid days, I have had the pleasure of riding the gear you mention. Either on a personal bike, or a borrowed / demo one.

The RS1, early Manitou stuff, ProFlex frames, Allsop stems (and catapult-like "beam" seatposts), Slingshot frames, where the downtube was replaced with a cable, Trek's early "work" (remember the 9000, with the single beam swingarm and elastomer stack, or their URT frames?)... While you probably won't see this tech outside of rural Africa anymore, at the time they all did as advertised, and that was to offer some isolation from the bumps on the ground.

In a word, "suspension". Not great, but in many cases, better than nothing.

I'd also say that, given the anecdotal observations of riders here, these plates are doing things comparable to what we think of more conventional linkage and dampers doing and that is to make the ride smoother. These riders' impressions also seem to be a bit more positive than the early, uneducated views of things like flex stems, which never really got any love. As hard as the industry tried, most people who road off road for real thought they were shit from the outset. I can also see why the bicycle industry didn't just bite MX suspension tech early on, and that's because the weight just couldn't be justified by an industry which was all about keeping things light. It wasn't until "freeride" MTB came along that moto-style coil springs and open bath oil damping, along with beefier stanchions, sliders, crowns and steerers became common. Then you saw products like the original Marzocchi Z1 turn up. Only once the manufacturers got the idea that some riders would sacrifice weight for performance did suspension really start to work well. Of course, this weight-be-damned mindset did result in the Marzocchi SuperMonster T, which took things a bit too far.

I looked at the AllFlex site. If I had to compare what it does to what a rear suspension bike does, I'd offer that the plate provides the linkage (frame and pivots on the bike), while the board offers the damping characteristics (the "shock", or damper).

 

 

Edited January 21, 2019 by Rob Stevens

[David Kirk]

3 hours ago, Jack M said:

Agreed.  Your post reminds me of the time in 2000 (2001?) when I first tried a Donek (FC-II 171) at the ECES at Stowe.  No damping whatsoever; you could see through the topsheet and fiberglass to the wood core.  Just a shape that frigging worked (on the conditions at hand).  Blew my mind.  I had to have that board.

Yes.  Vistflex with rear locked and center posts was similar.

Cool. Curiosity is one of both my strongest and weakest attributes and I'd really like to try the Allflex at some point.

In the mean time I just might have to throw some bindings on that old glass and foam Rossi and take it out again. It's been a year since I replaced it with a Kessler and I'll bet it will feel like there's electricity through it!

dave

[daveo]

Vistflex with both ends floating seems more natural due to the middle posts. 

 

I'm curious about your thoughts on the difference between one side locked and both sides floating. 

Edited January 22, 2019 by daveo

[SunSurfer]

So, how long till someone builds a plate system with a pair of miniature adjustable damping/return hydraulic shock absorbers replacing the slide part of current hinge + hinge/slide mechanism? Weight seems less of an issue for the GS racers.

[Corey]

2 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

So, how long till someone builds a plate system with a pair of miniature adjustable damping/return hydraulic shock absorbers replacing the slide part of current hinge + hinge/slide mechanism? Weight seems less of an issue for the GS racers.

Didn't the German Olympic team have some secret box in place of the AllFlex hinges? 

[daveo]

23 minutes ago, Corey said:

Didn't the German Olympic team have some secret box in place of the AllFlex hinges? 

Yep. FES. Institut für Forschung und Entwicklung von Sportgeräten.

3 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

So, how long till someone builds a plate system with a pair of miniature adjustable damping/return hydraulic shock absorbers replacing the slide part of current hinge + hinge/slide mechanism? Weight seems less of an issue for the GS racers.

Not what you're after, but...

Edited January 22, 2019 by daveo

[Corey]

That picture made my head explode with options...  As an engineer, it'd be nice to isolate damping from everything else.  As a rider, I shudder at the testing required to 'optimize' such a system. 

[daveo]

2 minutes ago, Corey said:

That picture made my head explode with options...  As an engineer, it'd be nice to isolate damping from everything else.  As a rider, I shudder at the testing required to 'optimize' such a system. 

It also has wheels under it 

Talking of plates...

[Jack M]

3 hours ago, daveo said:

Not what you're after, but...

Apparently this person feels what I feel when riding plates like the Allflex and Vistflex with the center posts limiting the travel - the board flexes differently under the plate than it does beyond the plate, especially if you don't hit the sweet spot of the system bang on.

[daveo]

8 minutes ago, Jack M said:

Apparently this person feels what I feel when riding plates like the Allflex and Vistflex with the center posts limiting the travel - the board flexes differently under the plate than it does beyond the plate, especially if you don't hit the sweet spot of the system bang on.

Hmm. Did you try the VF without the centre posts? Or maybe with a few washers extending the posts and without the wide washer to limit the travel? Any thought on this?

[Jack M]

1 hour ago, daveo said:

Did you try the VF without the centre posts?

Yes, with the rear locked, you can do this.  Then it allows free board flex like the Apex or Donek.

Technically you can float both ends and not use the center posts, but then the plate is free to shift forward and back.  I wasn't interested to try that.

[daveo]

16 minutes ago, Jack M said:

Yes, with the rear locked, you can do this.  Then it allows free board flex like the Apex or Donek.

Technically you can float both ends and not use the center posts, but then the plate is free to shift forward and back.  I wasn't interested to try that.

Right.

I think lengthened centre posts with small washers to keep it centred and both ends free floating is what I'll test first this season.

[rjnakata]

4 hours ago, Jack M said:

Apparently this person feels what I feel when riding plates like the Allflex and Vistflex with the center posts limiting the travel - the board flexes differently under the plate than it does beyond the plate, especially if you don't hit the sweet spot of the system bang on.

So my question: do plates (with bumpers, without, suspended, not suspended) modify board flex pattern to some extent?  If so, should the board be designed with a flex pattern to accommodate that?

[pokkis]

Remember that even normal binding effect that depending stance used. Due that board is built for stance user is ordering it.

So answer is yes, plates will affect how board will flex.

[Lurch]

1 hour ago, rjnakata said:

So my question: do plates (with bumpers, without, suspended, not suspended) modify board flex pattern to some extent?  If so, should the board be designed with a flex pattern to accommodate that?

This thread contains a little insight from Bruce about board/ plate interaction:

 

[David Kirk]

4 hours ago, rjnakata said:

So my question: do plates (with bumpers, without, suspended, not suspended) modify board flex pattern to some extent?  If so, should the board be designed with a flex pattern to accommodate that?

I feel like anything bolted to the board will affect its flex pattern in one way or the other. The flex pattern of a board is tempting to look at in isolation but since it can't be used without bolting stuff to it I have to assume that board designers and builders factor the interface into the recipe.

I've been a bicycle designer for WAY too long and it's similar. People like to test bike frames/forks without it being in context. One can't ride a bike without wheels and the hubs bolt into the frame/fork and significantly change how, and how much, the parts flex under load. You get the idea....

Back to boards.....

With a rigid floating axle plate the location of the mounting points of the plate to the board will greatly influence how the board flexes in use.

With a flexible multi attachment plate like an Allflex I would think that the stiffness of the plate can be added to the stiffness of the board meaning the board will decamber less with a given load....and at the same time will will have less effect on the tip and tail (compared to the center section) as they are not directly bolted to the plate. Rider pedaling will also have an effect but not as much as with a non-plate direct mount.

Without a plate the width of the riders stance and the size of the binding foot print will do their own thing. We also need to factor in how much the rider pedals the board as it can be made to feel stiffer or softer depending on what the rider does with their feet.

 

dave