How you guys feeling about new soft boot carving phenomenon?

[CMC]

12 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

CMC,

Those were the days, weren't they? So much possibility, so much vitality to the industry, and every day a new discovery. We were all ignorant, but made up for that with curiosity, drive, and a lot of time on snow.

Thanks

 

Those were the days.  I'll say it again.  Those were the days.

[CMC]

9 hours ago, barryj said:

Ripturns......showing some "Gilmour Bias" are you..............no pun intended!

...but that is one hell of a 13 seconds of a clip!!   Thanks for posting it!!!

Haha..no bias.  When JG is on and there is no flat light, he kills it--lightning fast and aggressive.  Most aggressive ripper Ive ever seen and ridden with.

[jtslalom]

piusthedrcarve,
Finally this post is getting some where. WOW!!! That has to be the best review I have ever seen. Thanks for the details. I liked the comparison you made to the F2 and Rossi. I will look for this board and make an effort to some how ride it this season. If you ever venture up to the NJ/NY area send me a pm. It would be great to ride with you and the rest of my buddies.

Thanks

jt

[Allee]

I was chased down on the lift at Silver Star over Xmas, by a guy who wanted to pick my brain about how to get started softboot carving. We had a great conversation, hopefully I pointed him in the right direction.

[pow4ever]

the more the merrier.  Any chance to cut down straight line collision is a big plus in my book.
More people that carve should increase the awareness of the so call "un-predictive" movement to the uninitiated.

Despite my lack of carve prowess; my persistence at failing spectacularly usually draw some pity encouragement remark or inspired other to "show me how it's done" 

It's all good.

[Poloturbo]

Piusthedrcarve. ??

Very good review.

Next try my board 

Completely blown away by it. Board on the right.

JJA TBX166 (8-10.5-9.5 SCR) Double titanal. Incredible on ice it's unbelievable.

Edited December 29, 2017 by Poloturbo

[D.T.]

1 hour ago, Jack Michaud said:

In 2010 we went to Jackson Hole.  I didn't own a softboot setup at the time so I got a "high performance" rental from a board shop (not the mountain rental shop).  The guy was very knowledgeable and recommended I try the new theory in freeride/powder boards, and set me up on a Burton Malolo, I think 160 (or 156??).  I hated having almost nothing behind my rear foot and such a short board in general.  I spent a morning on it and went back and exchanged it for a Supermodel 168.  Aaahhhhh.

So, I have no interest in these Elite shaped things. Frankly I suspect they're a fad, and just a way for some snowboard companies to catch people's attention by making something outrageous looking.  I experienced what to me was a serious drop in performance from the snub tail, so I can't fathom any benefit.

I'm trying to understand the logic behind your opinion... 

You are at a mountain that at best, you ride infrequently.  You hop on a newly-designed board (Malolo) that you know nothing about, don't like it, switch to a board design (Supermodel) that has been around since at least the early 2000's and have fun, and therefore, make a statement that the newly-designed board with a short tail is unworthy and merely a design fad? 

Could there have been other factors that were the ultimate issue for you?  Let's start with SCR: the SCR on the current 162cm Malolo is 8.2; I don't know the spec on the Supermodel, but I'm guessing its a bit larger than 8.2m.  What about flex?  Back when I had a 174cm Supermodel in ~1997/1998, it was one of the stiffer all-mountain boards available at the time, and definitely in Burton's productline.  Based on Burton's marketing hype, I would guess that the flex of the Malolo is somewhere in the middle of the range of the boards that Burton manufactures.  Add some steeps and snow that you can sink an edge into and that soft-flexing board will fold like a wet noodle.

My take on the Malolo: by combining a small SCR, moderate flex pattern, and a rider than know how to put the board on edge and weight the edges (rarities for the vast majority of the riders on the mountain), you're just asking for a shitty time!  Now throw in 20mm of taper and a bobbed tail, if you don't immediately adapt your riding style, your day will be even worse.

My experience on a bobbed-tail board:  I own a Jones Hovercraft 164.  The SCR is 10M.  My other softie boards all have SCR's that are 10M or greater; smaller SCR's don't work for me!  If I don't adapt my riding position (as in stay neutral and quit moving around on the board), I'll loose the tail easier on my 174cm Volkl Selecta with 20 or 25mm of taper, than I will on the bobbed-tail Hovercraft with 14mm of taper.  Last weekend we actually had the first real snowfall of the season; thus, I grabbed my Hovercraft.  I rode open glades, tight trees and steeps, and would hop out onto the groomers and carve back to the lift.  After clipping a tree in the trees, I stood up and was mid-thigh deep in powder.  At no point in time was it necessary for me to lean back on the board to keep the nose riding on top of the powder. I rode the steeps and trees with speed and confidence.  On the groomers, I would drag my knee on the toesides and my ass on the heelsides. 

My personal take:

1. No way in HELL would I, personally, ride any board with an 8.2m SCR; my slalom and softie boards have larger SCR's, and all are significantly stiffer. 
2. Rather than being obtuse, appreciate the subtleties that make each board different.  We do it on alpine boards, why not on a softie? 
3. When purchasing a board, I take into consideration not only who manufactured the board, but also who designed it.  I don't have the slightest idea who designed the Malolo, but I do know that Jeremy Jones has a clue about how to lay down some turns and ride the big mountain.
4. Before you bash the totality of a design concept, get the right board!

[piusthedrcarve]

3 hours ago, jtslalom said:

piusthedrcarve,
Finally this post is getting some where. WOW!!! That has to be the best review I have ever seen. Thanks for the details. I liked the comparison you made to the F2 and Rossi. I will look for this board and make an effort to some how ride it this season. If you ever venture up to the NJ/NY area send me a pm. It would be great to ride with you and the rest of my buddies.

Thanks

jt

Any time!  You ride at Mount Creek right?  Hope to ride with YOU someday.

I noticed a lot of SB carvers don’t know how to initiate a carve line. They angulate edges from middle using body or ankles. The new shape (hammerhead) allows them and us to find it without much efforts. And I found that little softer flex to help to bend it.   So far, only real carving SB decks have been BX decks that their characteristics are similar to alpine decks.  But normal softbooters to learn how to carve on them would be equally hard as alpine boards. The Endeavor’s partially added technologies such as  titanal, carbon, seemless edge could be the solution. I really want Sean to give his opinions/perspective on this. 

Although the Endeavor was mind-blowing ride, I want it to be little wider and longer, which I believe they had 164.  

One more caveat tho.  I read reviews of the same deck in Korean carving forum. They rate Moss & Grey better than Endeavor. I don’t believe their reviews since I see Japanese “pro” riding them on perfect conditions in the posted videos, which I noticed chatters and wobbles. But their riding style and mine are different. 

[piusthedrcarve]

1 hour ago, Poloturbo said:

Piusthedrcarve. ??

Very good review.

Next try my board 

Completely blown away by it. Board on the right.

JJA TBX166 (8-10.5-9.5 SCR) Double titanal. Incredible on ice it's unbelievable.

Wow. I have’t ridden any JJA board but heard a lot of good things. It has really tight SCR for its size.  I see a lot of BX board is going with carbon w/o titanal and longer SCR last few years.  Maybe good characteristics gor carving.

I see it as this. Carving characteristics is not good for race. Most race decks want to go straight down and it should be. Racers are there to change directions to go around it (GS/SL) using their techniques. Carver on race decks are too busy to bend it to change its fall line favoring characteristic. Being said that, your board could be easier and more carving capable deck then other BX boards. 

Sure. Send it over.  BTW, how do you like Metal FC?

[Poloturbo]

1 hour ago, piusthedrcarve said:

Wow. I have’t ridden any JJA board but heard a lot of good things. It has really tight SCR for its size.  I see a lot of BX board is going with carbon w/o titanal and longer SCR last few years.  Maybe good characteristics gor carving.

I see it as this. Carving characteristics is not good for race. Most race decks want to go straight down and it should be. Racers are there to change directions to go around it (GS/SL) using their techniques. Carver on race decks are too busy to bend it to change its fall line favoring characteristic. Being said that, your board could be easier and more carving capable deck then other BX boards. 

Sure. Send it over.  BTW, how do you like Metal FC?

Couldn't believe myself the few first runs. 

The TBX is double titanal sheets 0.4 I think carbon construction. 

A forum member designed it with JJA. He sent 2 boards to test. I bought the other one. In fact the other owner sold me on it as it was is favorite board.

The small scr makes it a dream for small slopes.

The 26.5" is perfect for 29.0

So much stability.  Confidence.  Carving really hard and I' at 205 pounds.

 

Couldn't try the FC. Got carried away and sold everything after a bad prognostic. Felling good for now.

Here the specs

Edited December 29, 2017 by Poloturbo

[barryj]

2 hours ago, D.T. said:

My experience on a bobbed-tail board:  I own a Jones Hovercraft 164.    I rode open glades, tight trees and steeps, and would hop out onto the groomers and carve back to the lift.  After clipping a tree in the trees, I stood up and was mid-thigh deep in powder.  At no point in time was it necessary for me to lean back on the board to keep the nose riding on top of the powder. I rode the steeps and trees with speed and confidence.  On the groomers, I would drag my knee on the toesides and my ass on the heelsides

True That DT!   Jones Hovercraft is out of the same thinking of Moss Snowsticks for Surf shapes that can do it all....and supposedly Jones got his Hovercraft inspiration from wanting to emulate those pumpy old school surf turns......and you gotta expect Jones got some R&D from dissecting  a few Moss snowsticks!!

...and I totally concur with DT!............On my Moss PQ60 I can be laying down the carves on the groom and then dive straight into the, over knee deep pow stashes then bust back out of the pow onto the groom straight into a knee dragging carve......all on the same run.....(even in it's current setup with TD3 SW SI's and Track 425's!) !!  

Jeremy Jones Said It! - It's All About The Turn!  and Worth a Replay In This Thread!!

 

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by barryj

[softbootsurfer]

yea, thanks... you are right on with that thought...you cannot run gates and surf at the same time...

 

 

[philw]

On 28/12/2017 at 6:35 AM, Jack Michaud said:

In 2010 we went to Jackson Hole.  I didn't own a softboot setup at the time so I got a "high performance" rental from a board shop (not the mountain rental shop).  The guy was very knowledgeable and recommended I try the new theory in freeride/powder boards, and set me up on a Burton Malolo, I think 160 (or 156??).  I hated having almost nothing behind my rear foot and such a short board in general.  I spent a morning on it and went back and exchanged it for a Supermodel 168.  Aaahhhhh.

So, I have no interest in these Elite shaped things. Frankly I suspect they're a fad, and just a way for some snowboard companies to catch people's attention by making something outrageous looking.  I experienced what to me was a serious drop in performance from the snub tail, so I can't fathom any benefit.

The Supermodel (which version - in 2010 probably the second) was a big floppy board. The Malolo rocks, although I think the sizes were 156 and 163. Nothing behind your rear foot? That is really odd - those are slashy boards.  What angles were you using? The Malolo even had "more slash" written on it. The Fish didn't / doesn't have a tail, but the Malolo certainly does. It is a powder board however, which means that the tail has to be soft enough to be usable to control your speed in a turn. What were you trying to do with it?

I believe the Malolo was a JG/ Terje collaboration, like the Fish. Both ground breaking boards, not at all like the old stuff. Those boards completely changed the powder snowboarding business, they're the most significant boards I can think of for powder snowboarding.

Edited December 30, 2017 by philw

[Cuban Carving Gooding]

It's about time. Thank you for not bombing strait down the hill.

 

[McKarver]

12 hours ago, D.T. said:

My experience on a bobbed-tail board:  I own a Jones Hovercraft 164.  The SCR is 10M.  My other softie boards all have SCR's that are 10M or greater; smaller SCR's don't work for me!  If I don't adapt my riding position (as in stay neutral and quit moving around on the board), I'll loose the tail easier on my 174cm Volkl Selecta with 20 or 25mm of taper, than I will on the bobbed-tail Hovercraft with 14mm of taper.  Last weekend we actually had the first real snowfall of the season; thus, I grabbed my Hovercraft.  I rode open glades, tight trees and steeps, and would hop out onto the groomers and carve back to the lift.  After clipping a tree in the trees, I stood up and was mid-thigh deep in powder.  At no point in time was it necessary for me to lean back on the board to keep the nose riding on top of the powder. I rode the steeps and trees with speed and confidence.  On the groomers, I would drag my knee on the toesides and my ass on the heelsides. 

 

40 minutes ago, Cuban Carving Gooding said:

It's about time. Thank you for not bombing strait down the hill.

 

Although I don’t get to ride that much powder, I got  a 148 Hovercraft. 

12 hours ago, D.T. said:

I'm trying to understand the logic behind your opinion... 

You are at a mountain that at best, you ride infrequently.  You hop on a newly-designed board (Malolo) that you know nothing about, don't like it, switch to a board design (Supermodel) that has been around since at least the early 2000's and have fun, and therefore, make a statement that the newly-designed board with a short tail is unworthy and merely a design fad? 

Could there have been other factors that were the ultimate issue for you?  Let's start with SCR: the SCR on the current 162cm Malolo is 8.2; I don't know the spec on the Supermodel, but I'm guessing its a bit larger than 8.2m.  What about flex?  Back when I had a 174cm Supermodel in ~1997/1998, it was one of the stiffer all-mountain boards available at the time, and definitely in Burton's productline.  Based on Burton's marketing hype, I would guess that the flex of the Malolo is somewhere in the middle of the range of the boards that Burton manufactures.  Add some steeps and snow that you can sink an edge into and that soft-flexing board will fold like a wet noodle.

My take on the Malolo: by combining a small SCR, moderate flex pattern, and a rider than know how to put the board on edge and weight the edges (rarities for the vast majority of the riders on the mountain), you're just asking for a shitty time!  Now throw in 20mm of taper and a bobbed tail, if you don't immediately adapt your riding style, your day will be even worse.

My experience on a bobbed-tail board:  I own a Jones Hovercraft 164.  The SCR is 10M.  My other softie boards all have SCR's that are 10M or greater; smaller SCR's don't work for me!  If I don't adapt my riding position (as in stay neutral and quit moving around on the board), I'll loose the tail easier on my 174cm Volkl Selecta with 20 or 25mm of taper, than I will on the bobbed-tail Hovercraft with 14mm of taper.  Last weekend we actually had the first real snowfall of the season; thus, I grabbed my Hovercraft.  I rode open glades, tight trees and steeps, and would hop out onto the groomers and carve back to the lift.  After clipping a tree in the trees, I stood up and was mid-thigh deep in powder.  At no point in time was it necessary for me to lean back on the board to keep the nose riding on top of the powder. I rode the steeps and trees with speed and confidence.  On the groomers, I would drag my knee on the toesides and my ass on the heelsides. 

My personal take:

1. No way in HELL would I, personally, ride any board with an 8.2m SCR; my slalom and softie boards have larger SCR's, and all are significantly stiffer. 
2. Rather than being obtuse, appreciate the subtleties that make each board different.  We do it on alpine boards, why not on a softie? 
3. When purchasing a board, I take into consideration not only who manufactured the board, but also who designed it.  I don't have the slightest idea who designed the Malolo, but I do know that Jeremy Jones has a clue about how to lay down some turns and ride the big mountain.
4. Before you bash the totality of a design concept, get the right board!

Although I don’t get to ride powder that much,  I ride a 148 Hovercraft. It has great edge hold on groomers for a soft boot board. What binding do you use?

[Jack M]

The point was, I hated having so little behind my back foot.  I was riding powder and trees, so SCR wasn't much of a factor.  It was almost 8 years ago, I can't be 100% certain it was a Malolo, maybe it was a Fish.  Whatever it was, at that time, the board had a lot of taper and what seemed like about 5 cm of effective edge behind the inserts before the kick tail.  Not my cup of tea.

For carving purposes, the Jones Hovercraft does not have what I would call a bobbed tail.  Looks like a pretty normal amount of effective edge behind the rear foot, only the kick tail has been deleted.  I'd be interested to try a 165 wide.

A buddy rides a Jones Storm Chaser, which I would call bobbed tail.  Very little behind the rear foot before the swallow tail, which is kicked (off the ground). I think the board looks grossly undersized for my friend, but he says he likes it.  *Shrug*

[Beckmann AG]

14 hours ago, softbootsurfer said:

you cannot run gates and surf at the same time

Says you.

 In at least one section of 'LOG', Jeremy appears to be ripping a course in his minds eye. Like the gazellephant he is, and always has been.

Interesting how he can incorporate elements from the various parts of his career into one solid run, rather than 'indentifying' himself into a corner.

[b0ardski]

On 12/28/2017 at 9:17 PM, BlueB said:

Not really, it's pretty much a reissue of their old step-in softy binding... 

Actually nothing like that old burton SI, it is a redesign of the Device\Oxygen that Ride bought out in favor of clicker. The locked in feel was way better on the device than all other soft stepins, attachment above the heel and at toe of the boot rather than the arch like burton si\switch, was waaay better for carving 

A cap strap at the toe and lattch at the heel would reintroduce some of the slop the parkies like.

Edited December 30, 2017 by b0ardski

[softbootsurfer]

No Thanks!  Peckman...

[Beckmann AG]

57 minutes ago, softbootsurfer said:

No Thanks!  Peckman...

Most excellent. Thanks for playing.

[Rob Stevens]

With the new crop of "tail free" boards, carving is still well possible, you'd just act a little more restrained, that's all. 

So long as you're pressuring at and between your feet, you're good. Running pressure out past that isn't going to be met with much support. 

With those boards, it's about using that lack of support to your benefit. 

You don't see him do it much in the video, but at the end it shows some pretty basic noboard / powsurf. You can see, if you look, how he controls his speed by pushing the tail straight down. Like surfing, if you want to slow down on the water, you can't really skid, or pivot the board sideways without creating problems, so you brake in a straight line. With no tail, it doesn't take much to sink it. Nothing does that as well as a board with a chopped tail. 

Like Jack, I don't tend to reach for a board like this for binder riding. The ones I do have are pretty much strictly for powder days and bindungless riding. 

Sorry to mung up the thread with my support of that video. It's still something I aspire to, and will continue to emulate for its power, stability, versatility and straight up good lookin'ness. 

If you see it resurrected in another thread, visit me there, if you don't mind going down a rabbit hole.  

 

[McKarver]

Designed for powder, but this board is actually fun on groomers too. Gentemstick Fish HP 148.

[philw]

11 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

The point was, I hated having so little behind my back foot.  I was riding powder and trees, so SCR wasn't much of a factor.  It was almost 8 years ago, I can't be 100% certain it was a Malolo, maybe it was a Fish.  Whatever it was, at that time, the board had a lot of taper and what seemed like about 5 cm of effective edge behind the inserts before the kick tail.  Not my cup of tea.... 

Yeah, likely a Fish. It was fairly exceptional at launch (back then the standard powder board was a 168 Supermodel Mk1 - big and fat and soft) . Fish takes some adjusting to.  They're still pretty much the defacto board for much BC cat/ heli powder. Some people still prefer more "slash" - hence the sticker on the old Malolo which promised that. 

The sidecut radius... see other thread on the temporary board.... I think there's at least consensus that it doesn't work the same way as piste boards. Burton's powder sidecuts are all teeny, albeit with taper. 

I do like the idea that the far-eastern people like to turn - the sport was killed for too long by people who like to spin and dick around on rails.

[softbootsurfer]

Phil,

the Fish boys here, Joey, Mike, Micky, Walter and Larry and the others all moved their back foot back, another three inches with new inserts...I did not like the fish, wouldn't let me down in, as well as the supermodels, The Malolos and Land Lords are the best all around mountain boards I have used since the demise of the supermodel series...I use a 20.5 in. stance so that is the front foot back as far as I can put it and the back foot forward as far as I can put it, not aware of anyone else other than Burke using that set up though, everyone I see typically puts both feet as far back as they can, on those sticks...

[nicboun]

On 29/12/2017 at 2:58 PM, piusthedrcarve said:

Any time!  You ride at Mount Creek right?  Hope to ride with YOU someday.

I noticed a lot of SB carvers don’t know how to initiate a carve line. They angulate edges from middle using body or ankles. The new shape (hammerhead) allows them and us to find it without much efforts. And I found that little softer flex to help to bend it.   So far, only real carving SB decks have been BX decks that their characteristics are similar to alpine decks.  But normal softbooters to learn how to carve on them would be equally hard as alpine boards. The Endeavor’s partially added technologies such as  titanal, carbon, seemless edge could be the solution. I really want Sean to give his opinions/perspective on this. 

Although the Endeavor was mind-blowing ride, I want it to be little wider and longer, which I believe they had 164.  

One more caveat tho.  I read reviews of the same deck in Korean carving forum. They rate Moss & Grey better than Endeavor. I don’t believe their reviews since I see Japanese “pro” riding them on perfect conditions in the posted videos, which I noticed chatters and wobbles. But their riding style and mine are different. 

(I noticed a lot of SB carvers don’t know how to initiate a carve line. They angulate edges from middle using body or ankles.)

 

can un explain me how to  initiate a carve line properly?