How you guys feeling about new soft boot carving phenomenon?

[barryj]

Hey Rob........mean no disrespect to your Home Boys ......just saying their doing great.... considering duck foot! ...but duckfooted Ryan Knapton looks and rides better imo and I hope/expect my hardboot experience will translate to taking me to a higher level  

Here's video of Moss PQ60 and Burton Step On's   Jump  to 6:30   Seems to me heels sides seem to hook up imo with this setup......

 

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by barryj

[Beckmann AG]

4 hours ago, Rob Stevens said:

It's notable how this video pops up again. I think that's support of a kind for the idea that some think that what they're seeing is stylish, and not at all painful to view. When I put it up back in aught-14, it's because I thought (particularly Mike) that what I was seeing was beautiful. After a brief visit to the eyewash station, Beckmann came after it as awkward and inefficient. On this site, he had more than a few supporters. Not surprising... you don't go on a DH thread, talking up fat bikes and not expect to take a few shots. That said, outside this small microcosm of snowboarding, the reactions the video got were more positive. 

Sensitive much?

Don’t hand me a horse apple and try to convince me it’s a Honeycrisp. 

I noted the riding as awkward and inefficient because it’s awkward and inefficient. If others felt likewise, it probably had a lot to do with the awkwardness and inefficiency. 

It’s been my experience over the years, that when an athlete is operating in harmony with the sphere of energy they’ve chosen to engage, things look ‘right’, the associated body parts are located where they should be, and the movement appears to drive the action, rather than the action driving the obvious movements. 

Excess, on the other hand, tends to stick out like a goiter.

 If, however, your community is burdened with iodine deficiency, you're probably used to the sight.

4 hours ago, Rob Stevens said:

An individual suggesting that we can all appreciate "art", but that some have a better idea of what art actually is, might be very familiar with art, but is having a hard time not putting their template over some of its forms in order to judge it.

Again, apologies if I'm reading the intent wrong, as I do agree with the  "not as effective " part. I do have a hard time with the "awkward" comment, as it suggests to me that myself and many riders I respect don't know their own minds.

I didn’t say I have a better idea of what constitutes art.  I said you and I might prefer different artists, and provided speculative examples. 

My ‘template’, by the way, is objectively mechanical, not subjectively stylish, and has nothing to do with art.

E.g., the rider’s awkward appearance (subjective) reveals their inefficient practice (objective). Identifying something as 'awkward' is part of the diagnostic process, not a personal attack.  If it make you feel any less persecuted, I've said the same of contemporary hardboot technique on many occasions.

If your goal is to become a better rider, and you cannot separate the objective and subjective in evaluating performance, you're clearly in thrall to something, and that something will stand in the way of your progress.

[Rob Stevens]

36 minutes ago, barryj said:

Hey Rob........mean no disrespect to your Home Boys ......just saying their doing great.... considering duck foot! ...but duckfooted Ryan Knapton looks and rides better imo and I hope/expect my hardboot experience will translate to taking me to a higher level  

Here's video of Moss PQ60 and Burton Step On's   Jump  to 6:30   Seems to me heels sides seem to hook up imo with this setup......

 

 

Hi Barry;

I'd venture that you like Ryan's style because it has certain touchstones you're familiar with. Ryan stands tall on his toes, except where he moves to be very low to start an ass dragging heel turn. As ass dragging heel turns are what I'm frothing about, I'd call Mike's low position on the toes (pretty similar to the guy above) a shorter distance to travel, if you want to start low on the heels, which you would.

What I see at 6:57 to 7 m is a nice, low turn. As he tries to go lower, though, he appears to boot out as the board skids. Mike is not skidding, he's on a steeper slope, travelling faster, and his leading hip is on the mat along with his hand. Watch both again to see what I mean.

Finally, if you're a standard ape of a white man, I might assume that you have larger feet than our rider here. I'm making an assumption on his height (and foot size) from his stature relative to the width and length of that pretty short board. He's going to get away with things you won't. If he's a 6 (small boot and binding) and you're a 10 (just guessing) you won't be able to create the kind of edge angle he can. Add to that the rather ridiculous amount of bulge in that highback (necessary to make the step in work, along with the standard low Burton baseplate heel loop) and your chances of getting into the 60's aren't great. I suppose that might be why you'd drop the power plate on there, but that device doesn't really seem suitable for a board that would probably rather be ridden in powder, with no bindings at all.

 

[Rob Stevens]

13 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

Sensitive much?

Don’t hand me a horse apple and try to convince me it’s a Honeycrisp. 

I noted the riding as awkward and inefficient because it’s awkward and inefficient. If others felt likewise, it probably had a lot to do with the awkwardness and inefficiency. 

It’s been my experience over the years, that when an athlete is operating in harmony with the sphere of energy they’ve chosen to engage, things look ‘right’, the associated body parts are located where they should be, and the movement appears to drive the action, rather than the action driving the obvious movements. 

Excess, on the other hand, tends to stick out like a goiter.

 If, however, your community is burdened with iodine deficiency, you're probably used to the sight.

I didn’t say I have a better idea of what constitutes art.  I said you and I might prefer different artists, and provided speculative examples. 

My ‘template’, by the way, is objectively mechanical, not subjectively stylish, and has nothing to do with art.

E.g., the rider’s awkward appearance (subjective) reveals their inefficient practice (objective). Identifying something as 'awkward' is part of the diagnostic process, not a personal attack.  If it make you feel any less persecuted, I've said the same of contemporary hardboot technique on many occasions.

If your goal is to become a better rider, and you cannot separate the objective and subjective in evaluating performance, you're clearly in thrall to something, and that something will stand in the way of your progress.

I didn't really think it came off as sensitive. Rather, I thought the part about the fat bikes on a DH thread would show that I don't really expect to have the majority of this group think much of what I'm saying and he's showing.

That you could presume, however, to place your opinion of "mechanics" above another experts (Mike in this case) actual experience is telling. I know I'm not going to say anything to sway you. No doubt, it comes from somewhere. Likely a place where you've been respected for your work. I'd say the same about Mike. I'd say the same about others who had more favourable opinions. I'm sure you're thinking something along the lines of "good mechanics is not an opinion" well, yeah, it is when you aren't in the possession of the abilities shown, or willing to step outside your view of what's ideal. 

If your goal is to ride in a way that satisfies you, you should try to emulate what you think is good riding. Like you chasing Westcott around in the 90's, you saw something you liked and tried to incorporate it into your own riding. If you're open enough, and get to ride enough, you'll discard what doesn't work for you and keep what does. This doesn't ensure "perfect practice", but that's a restriction one might place on their own personality type relative to the desired experience, where you may not even move if you didn't think that what you were about to try could result in anything less than epiphanies left and right.

If your template was objective, you'd see the efficiencies in what another expert does. You might still not have it please you, but that's beside the point.

Your last comment is notable... You say the riding is awkward. I and some expert "others" don't think that, while some others who also appear to have skills and credibility do. If it's unclear as to the first part, how can you say that the practice (or performance in this case) is inefficient? You'd have to know the individuals desired outcome to make that call. It seems like you have a different desired aesthetic which I'd say is no more or less ideal than what Mike is doing. Remember; Mike is a pro, so his outcomes are based on what I'd call a sophisticated internal model, as opposed to a rider with less ability to self analyze, who doesn't know what they're striving for.

If "sameness is lameness" (great line by the way, Erik), then a novice rider might be alright to grow via experiencial learning, trying things that appeal to them, rather than to adhere to your "perfect practice makes perfect" dogma. I said "might be alright" as I don't presume to know what puts others "in thrall". Some may be enthralled by your "perfect practice makes perfect". While that's one way to do it, the rigidity of that method isn't for everyone. Some of the more impressionable might even be afraid to express themselves "in dance" for fear of causing you to run out of saline solution.

[Beckmann AG]

34 minutes ago, Rob Stevens said:

f "sameness is lameness" (great line by the way, Erik), then a novice rider might be alright to grow via experiencial learning, trying things that appeal to them, rather than to adhere to your "perfect practice makes perfect" dogma. I said "might be alright" as I don't presume to know what puts others "in thrall". Some may be enthralled by your "perfect practice makes perfect". While that's one way to do it, the rigidity of that method isn't for everyone. Some of the more impressionable might even be afraid to express themselves "in dance" for fear of causing you to run out of saline solution.

Rob,

Given that I don't subscribe to the 'Perfect Practice makes Perfect'  theory of learning, I'm interested to know why you're draping that particular albatross on my coat rack.

Could you maybe direct me to the last time I used that phrase? 

Thanks

Edited December 28, 2017 by Beckmann AG
Had to P

[Rob Stevens]

Just seems like the kind of thing you'd say. Call it an assumption based on experience.

[lowrider]

I once heard a saying that only  well fed people fight . You guys must be full of stuffing and turkey. As a fellow Canadian i think this is not the type of behavior  our country encourages. After watching the video and i enjoy  watching anything people do on the snow. The guy rides like an old dude with a stiff back but then i do too ! Riding a powder board   ( with virtually  no tail )  on groom doesn't exactly look like the kind of footage to get worked up about. Hell guys it 's Burton gear he's talking about !

[Jack M]

17 minutes ago, Rob Stevens said:

But they are carving on a snowboard. Well, as it appears to me and others. They're definitely not saying they're the only ones who can. Call it an error of omission, if you like, but just because they didn't call their video "How to carve on a snowboard (and others can, too!)" doesn't make it inaccurate. 

"Better than that" doesn't help me... Do you mean better than that in hardboots, or better than that, by any advanced or expert hardbooter, simply picking up soft boots, with a wide board and low angles? I strongly agree with the former (and the pointlessness of the "who carves harder" discussion) but disagree with the latter. I don't think that most hardbooters could be that immediately adaptable. Most would immediately put on the floppy boots and take a pass, let alone run it up to the speed and pressure Mike is at.

 

They are carving.  Yes.  I would title the video "Snowboard carving" or "Carving on a Snowboard".  Just not anything authoritative.  Their toesides are objectionable.

"Better than that" - Yes, the latter, but maybe I'll change it to expert, just because heelside is so different.  Any expert hardboot carver here could be carving better than these guys inside of a day or two on softboots, assuming no boot-out and that they're interested.  Agree to disagree I guess.

[scottishsurfer]

My heel edge has a long way to go but its something i'm determined to work on and improve at the moment it is very much hit and miss. For example here the first one i fluff and kind of fall into the turn to an extent the second i fluff getting out of it. As is obvious from the video im stuck riding in a fridge on artifical snow which isnt the best until the resorts in the highlands open....

heel4.mp4

[lonbordin]

Wait... Isn't it the wrong time of year for this thread? I thought everywhere has snow now???

[scottishsurfer]

Not for me I have a glorious 150m of diesel infused fake snow?

Edited December 28, 2017 by scottishsurfer
Correcting post

[jburk]

Wow.  Really don't want to get locked into a heelside in there; do walls hurt less than trees when you hit them?

"Would we cut down trees if they screamed?  We would if they screamed all the time..."

[Rob Stevens]

12 minutes ago, lowrider said:

I once heard a saying that only  well fed people fight . You guys must be full of stuffing and turkey. As a fellow Canadian i think this is not the type of behavior  our country encourages. After watching the video and i enjoy  watching anything people do on the snow. The guy rides like an old dude with a stiff back but then i do too ! Riding a powder board   ( with virtually  no tail )  on groom doesn't exactly look like the kind of footage to get worked up about. Hell guys it 's Burton gear he's talking about !

And I've got a flu, so what else am I going to do besides put myself up against Erik? Generally a losing proposition, but I'm a sucker for lost causes. The guy is a linguistic beast, so I have to really apply myself.

[Rob Stevens]

13 minutes ago, scottishsurfer said:

My heel edge has a long way to go but its something i'm determined to work on and improve at the moment it is very much hit and miss. For example here the first one i fluff and kind of fall into the turn to an extent the second i fluff getting out of it. As is obvious from the video im stuck riding in a fridge on artifical snow which isnt the best until the resorts in the highlands open....

heel4.mp4

That's a turn right there. Did you stand up? Your clever editing doesn't tell the tale.

[Lurch]

I am quite enjoying this clash of titans on both the carving and linguistic level. Fight on gentlemen!

[scottishsurfer]

6 minutes ago, Rob Stevens said:

That's a turn right there. Did you stand up? Your clever editing doesn't tell the tale.

Yeah im able to stand up out of it just doesn't show it from the angle. this is from the morning i first tried the SG soul so its not that impressive plus I was still learning how to ride it. At some point ill get a friend to actually film me rather than just dumping the camera and leaving it running.

heel5.mp4

[piusthedrcarve]

I subscribed to this tread at beginning and am getting more emails than my regular work days.   Although it annoys me greatly, the contents and arguments are somewhat educational and entertaining at same time.  So please go on  while I scrap off wax for few boards that I'm gonna ride tomorrow.   

[Jack M]

A few thoughts.  1, I cannot abide these "new" boards like this Moss Snowstick that are basically the same shape as my first board, a 1988 Burton Elite 150.  Horrible, horrible thing.  We had come so far, why repeat the mistakes of the past?

2, Rob seems latched on to the heelsides in the aforementioned video, and I agree they are generally strong for softboots.  However some are just holding on, waiting for the board to come around.

3, Like I said, the toesides in that video are objectionable here.  I agree with what Rob says about them emulating a surf-style toeside bottom turn, but IMO it's just a style and an unnecessary one at that.  When I am really in the zone I like to look and feel like I am doing absolutely nothing, and the board is doing it all for me.  Their style involves them doing a lot.

4, I like Slopestar's sb carving a lot better.

[Rob Stevens]

30 minutes ago, Jack Michaud said:

They are carving.  Yes.  I would title the video "Snowboard carving" or "Carving on a Snowboard".  Just not anything authoritative.  Their toesides are objectionable.

"Better than that" - Yes, the latter, but maybe I'll change it to expert, just because heelside is so different.  Any expert hardboot carver here could be carving better than these guys inside of a day or two on softboots, assuming no boot-out and that they're interested.  Agree to disagree I guess.

I know you don't like it Jack, but I still want you to try it. There're some good times down there.

 

[Jack M]

11 minutes ago, Rob Stevens said:

I know you don't like it Jack, but I still want you to try it. There're some good times down there.

 

Try softboot carving?  Didn't you see my earlier post?  I am trying it, now that I have a board wide enough to prevent bootout.  I'm riding 30/15 with a 22" stance width on a Winterstick ST 166 with a custom 27.5cm waist.  I'm having fun, and I would submit I'm doing better than the guys in the video in question.  I see more softbooting in my future, but hardbooting is the ultimate carve.

[Rob Stevens]

4 minutes ago, Jack Michaud said:

A few thoughts.  1, I cannot abide these "new" boards like this Moss Snowstick that are basically the same shape as my first board, a 1988 Burton Elite 150.  Horrible, horrible thing.  We had come so far, why repeat the mistakes of the past?

2, Rob seems latched on to the heelsides in the aforementioned video, and I agree they are generally strong for softboots.  However some are just holding on, waiting for the board to come around.

3, Like I said, the toesides in that video are objectionable here.  I agree with what Rob says about them emulating a surf-style toeside bottom turn, but IMO it's just a style and an unnecessary one at that.  When I am really in the zone I like to look and feel like I am doing absolutely nothing, and the board is doing it all for me.  Their style involves them doing a lot.

4, I like Slopestar's sb carving a lot better.

1. Not a board for being strapped to.

2. Yeah... pretty strong.

3. Unnecessary... Like snowboarding, period.

4. Roll the tape!

[Rob Stevens]

10 minutes ago, Jack Michaud said:

Try softboot carving?  Didn't you see my earlier post?  I am trying it, now that I have a board wide enough to prevent bootout.  I'm riding 30/15 with a 22" stance width on a Winterstick ST 166 with a custom 27.5cm waist.  I'm having fun, and I would submit I'm doing better than the guys in the video in question.  I see more softbooting in my future, but hardbooting is the ultimate carve.

I see your new board, and can imagine the efficient nature by which you ride. If I was an emoticon kind of guy, I'd hang a smiley on that crack.

I mean the toe side turn you don't like. It's fun!

Edited December 28, 2017 by Rob Stevens

[Jack M]

53 minutes ago, Rob Stevens said:

1. Not a board for being strapped to.

2. Yeah... pretty strong.

3. Unnecessary... Like snowboarding, period.

4. Roll the tape!

1, word.

3, well sure, we are all just sliding down a hill, which is pretty absurd to begin with. Why is it offensive to see people having fun "incorrectly"?  LOL

4, http://forums.bomberonline.com/topic/39772-board-riding/?do=findComment&comment=409455

also Gabe's sb carving: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMziK7kfDZY&feature=youtu.be

 

[scottishsurfer]

Some really nice riding there and two somewhat different styles :) I really do quite like that someones carving style can be quite unique almost like the riders finger print people can be similar but rarely identical.

 

[barryj]

Hey Jack  I'm old enough to say I also owned and rode a Burton Elite 150 back in the day...........functional for 1988, but you are correct, were horrible in general and especially "horrible, horrible" compared to today's tech..........and that's where the popularity of  "surf shapes" that the majority of major board manufactures like Jones, K2,  Rossi have been putting out the last couple of years trying to catch up with Moss and their designs and sales!.....and Moss has been at it since 1971 so they might know a thing or two about what there designing and it's capabilities. 

Really.............don't beat on it until you tried one................it's nimbleness, track ability, carve ability, pow ability, groomer ability will blow your mind!   Moss snowsticks are truly a renaissance board design that are easy to ride and a hell of a good time!