How you guys feeling about new soft boot carving phenomenon?

[piusthedrcarve]

8 hours ago, kipstar said:

so much weird gear over there (tele, touring, snow bikes, snow skates, fat skis, std skis, boards of numerous types) and the runs are often set up where the same lift accesses knee deep as well as groomers and a park that there isn't really a trying to look cool aspect with regards to gear type -that is acheived in Japan through
- must have most recent year of equipment
- accessories especially for women is absolutely critical
- should ride in a group often even wearing the same uniforms
- must follow same routine together - ride,eat,break, everything together
- solid technique
- onsen, beer and ramen :-)

So true! and quiet opposite of me, except hot tub, beer, and ramen.

[Poloturbo]

The best advice is from piusthedrcarve...

Listen to him.... ??

Edited December 24, 2017 by Poloturbo

[nitro]

sorry I dont want to offend or  jinx anyone ,but whenever I hear of soft boot carving all I can think of is when I fractured my talus bone. 

I guess if  your built like fred flintstone or ryan knapton you might ok. 

[Rob Stevens]

The idea that all anyone who rides well in forward angles just picks up a wide board, chops their angles then = Instant Success, is madness. Madness!

Yes... Import your forward stance and your chances are good that you'll feel it. Adopt an actual "surf" stance, where the rear foot takes a flatter (if not a touch duck) angle? Your heel side will need to adapt to the new position in a way that won't see immediate shred. 

To have your forward ass edge, and leading hand on the ground, while still stylishly "open" to your direction of travel and not folded to the toes, is a process hard to shortcut.

I'd offer that your toe side will feel great "right out of the box". On your heels though, when the hips don't operate in a way that makes forward stance riders feel familiar, creating edge angle and the act of pressure distribution is so altered, frustration will be your companion for a time. 

In my experience, the tricky thing to manage is a reduction in edge angle as you compress back to the board when moving to transition (stand) and change edges back to the toe side. With higher "alpine" angles, the kness flex more tip to tail (having less effect on edge angle) than they do in a stance incorporating a negative rear foot. As you move back to a low position (w / flat or duck back foot) the knees track to the toe edge, flattening the board in a moment you ideally like it to stay a bit more on edge.

Alignment with the stance has been key in getting off the ground, so a "stacked" position which minimizes the loss of pressure during diminishing edge angle is the crux of this move.

You can start with some rotation, and pass through the apex "open" as well, but if I stay open to the completion, it just doesn't... complete. This is where hardboots and alpine stances, with their added efficiencies in this moment, are lost to the soft boot, flat back foot carver. Without realigning to the stance, allowing the board to centre under the back foot, promoting pressure there (the substitute in this case for the lost edge angle) plus a fair amount of deflection of the board back across the hill (with a correspoding dynamic retraction of legs) you'll "butter" out, rotating around the front foot.

Initially it seems that the slightest over-rotation at the switch will keep you on the ground. That's similarly true with moving too slowly. That will keep you on the ground, too.

In the world of laid out, flat back foot turns, pressure control trumps edge angle, by necessity. As many alpine, high-angle riders overly rely on edge angle,  there's a fair bit to be learned before anyone is even half-assed mimicking the alpine heel side we love and covet so much.

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2017 by Rob Stevens

[BlueB]

Great analysis by Rob. ^ 

I rode my hard boots (ankles can't take softies any more) at low angles, including duck stance a lot, over the last 6-7 years... The things work in Alpine way all the way down to 45/30 (which I find to be the most versatile stance btw). Below that it, changes pretty much towards what Rob described. So many times I stepped from high angles to duck and forgot it on the first run, just to find myself spinning out of the heelside turns... Recently I observed the same in one if my former students, riding the softies after few years on hardboots only. 

Also, note that some "cheating" towards alpine can be achieved by adding extra lean on the rear higgback, or using bindings that can ramp into toe lift front, heel lift rear, like Ride or Cateks, or adding Power Plates or Burton wedges under the bindings... 

[BlueB]

Also, I have ridden many softy boards, not built specifically for carving, that carved really good... Tanker, Vertigo, A-frames, Steepwater, Cross, Timeless, MFR, Dynastars, LTD... Some were actually better then poorly designed alpine boards... 

Basically, if the sidecut and flex are matched, it's going to carve. 

Note, I'm blessed with small feet, so don't need a super wide board for low angles... 

[piusthedrcarve]

1 hour ago, BlueB said:

Also, note that some "cheating" towards alpine can be achieved by adding extra lean on the rear higgback, or using bindings that can ramp into toe lift front, heel lift rear, like Ride or Cateks, or adding Power Plates or Burton wedges under the bindings... 

Ride?  What model of Ride bindings allows to add lift on toe or heel?

[BlueB]

2 hours ago, piusthedrcarve said:

Ride?  What model of Ride bindings allows to add lift on toe or heel?

I believe previous versions of El Hefe had adjustable pads under the binding base. New ones seem to have a built in permanent cant. 

Edited December 27, 2017 by BlueB

[Beckmann AG]

On 12/20/2017 at 2:22 PM, skategoat said:

Personally, in the past two seasons, I've found myself in soft boots over hard on about a 5:1 ratio.

I still love carving my Kessler or Coiler alpine when the conditions are right. But that's the problem - conditions are rarely just right. And I find my softie rig is just more versatile and forgiving... I found myself having way more fun in my soft boots. No, I couldn't carve as hard but when I started hitting those mounds of soft snow in the afternoon, I wasn't getting pitched over the nose either.

An acquaintance owns a bike shop. He can ride whatever he wants, and lately, that’s a fat bike. He says it’s enjoyable, and suits his needs, so long as he doesn’t try to get anywhere fast.

Softboots are great for a lot of things, and there are a few things to which they’re not suited. 
That won’t keep enthusiasts from trying to expand the bounds, and more power to them. 
Perhaps they’ll learn something along the way.

Bicycles and alpine skis have undergone something of a renaissance lately, with offerings for all notions, abilities, and personalities.  In contrast, snowboarding is suffering from a case of the ‘same old, same old’.  Regardless of intent, if everyone addresses the board from the same, or similar stance, they will all look interchangeable.  With no obvious visual differentiation, there’s nothing to draw the eye, to spark interest; and therefore no reason for someone not snowboarding to take up snowboarding, or for someone already riding to seek higher performance.

Sameness then, becomes lameness.

I think back to the ’90s, chasing Wescott on the mountain, and watching Terje on the tube. Didn’t take an expert to notice that their respective gyros were spinning quite a bit faster than most everyone else.
That was part of what made them interesting. Trying to figure out what they had going on surely spurred others to better riding. That principle certainly drove me to a higher standard of movement and understanding.

Watching someone ‘carve’ on the ‘wrong’ equipment from the ‘wrong’ stance may prompt the like-minded to give it a go, but it won’t likely spur mass enthusiasm toward more purposeful riding.  
Carving a turn in that manner is, quite simply, awkward, requiring a disproportional amount of effort. And that runs counter to human nature in general.

On the other hand, a bunch of softbooters exploiting a quality turn from a sensible stance can only help, on visual impact alone. To say nothing of the conversations that might arise regarding the pros and cons of a given stance. 

Best thing going forward is to keep some of the better import videos coming, and simultaneously remove barriers to the sensations associated with effective use of the equipment. 
Carve a ‘real’ turn, and you know you’re toying with something greater than yourself. 
That’s both intoxicating, and habit forming.
Given the lifecycle of the sport, it’s certainly time for a 'new', slightly more evolved organism to emerge from the anaerobic goo of the stagnant duckpond.
 

Edited December 27, 2017 by Beckmann AG

[lordmetroland]

16 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said:

Given the lifecycle of the sport, it’s certainly time for a new organism to emerge from the anaerobic goo of a stagnant duckpond.

 

It hath arrived...

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by lordmetroland

[SunSurfer]

49 minutes ago, lordmetroland said:

It hath arrived...

 

10 years ago if YouTube is to be believed. Now that your anatomy has been zested your codpiece can pad you for the effect of a sudden stop riding your new found toy. 

[Jack M]

16 hours ago, Rob Stevens said:

The idea that all anyone who rides well in forward angles just picks up a wide board, chops their angles then = Instant Success, is madness. Madness!

Hi Rob. I didn’t say that. I said most good hardbooters could do better than the guys in that video. Did you watch it? I stand by that wager.

I agree a softboot heelside carve is a completely different animal, and more difficult. 

[scottishsurfer]

A big problem with good softboot carving ever becoming main stream is very much lack of instruction. In the Uk atleast there is nothing in terms of carving instruction past your basic basic/casi style which is very much duck stance focus'd, online there is very little in terms of anything bar basic carving and toe edge carves but very very little regarding good heel edge carving. This is one of the main reasons i ended up finding these forums and reading things on hardboot technique and seeing what would transfer over and work with softboots. I think also its very much something for someone who has a perfectionist streak in them thats will to put in alot of work seeking the perfect edge change and perfect run in general many people who snowboard are there purely to just play about on the snow for the most part.

One of the best tutorials i ever found on youtube is this japanese one which goes pretty in depth into the mechanics, its fairly well broken down so even if you dont understand the language you can generally get what they are talking about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPY_YTlho6U&t

[Beckmann AG]

32 minutes ago, Jack Michaud said:

 I said most good hardbooters could do better than the guys in that video. Did you watch it? 

I'll refer you back to March 21, 2014. 

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by Beckmann AG

[Beckmann AG]

9 hours ago, lordmetroland said:

It hath arrived...

 

Where's Nancy Reagan when you need her?

[Rob Stevens]

On 12/20/2017 at 12:02 PM, Jack Michaud said:

A for effort, glad to see it.  But I think any advanced/expert hardboot carver here could jump on a softboot setup and carve better than that.  Assuming no boot-out.

Sorry Jack. 

I took exception to this quote, not what you just said recently. They sound different to me, where one sounds like a set up for a hard vs. soft head to head, while the other states that competent hardbooters can switch to soft, add a wide board and out carve these two.

They're your words though, so I won't presume to tell you what you meant. Just a misunderstanding.

It's notable how this video pops up again. I think that's support of a kind for the idea that some think that what they're seeing is stylish, and not at all painful to view. When I put it up back in aught-14, it's because I thought (particularly Mike) that what I was seeing was beautiful. After a brief visit to the eyewash station, Beckmann came after it as awkward and inefficient. On this site, he had more than a few supporters. Not surprising... you don't go on a DH thread, talking up fat bikes and not expect to take a few shots. That said, outside this small microcosm of snowboarding, the reactions the video got were more positive. 

I agree with Beckmann where the absolute efficiency of a more forward stance is apparent while carving heelside turns. At least I'm going to assume that's the turn we're talking about. What surprises me (and it shouldn't, on this site) is the dismissal of the advantages of a rearward angled back foot as strictly limited to going backwards. 

I might be thinking too simply about this, but the heelside visual cues I look for in an "attractive"?turn are flexed knees and ankles, along with an open torso, where not only is the leading arm over on the heelside, but that same shoulder is open as well. The riders posture then tends to relax into a bit of inclination, rather than bent towards to toe edge. These riders are bent at the waist, but via that openness are bending in a more anticipatory way, rather than being left behind with both hands and shoulder on the toe side.

An individual suggesting that we can all appreciate "art", but that some have a better idea of what art actually is, might be very familiar with art, but is having a hard time not putting their template over some of its forms in order to judge it.

Again, apologies if I'm reading the intent wrong, as I do agree with the  "not as effective " part. I do have a hard time with the "awkward" comment, as it suggests to me that myself and many riders I respect don't know their own minds.

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by Rob Stevens

[Neil Gendzwill]

It's definitely a matter of perspective. I know we look weird to many softbooters. There are softie carvers that don't look awkward to my eye. However the guys in the video you are referencing do look awkward. Their butts are way in the air on toeside, their arms are flailing around. I understand they are carrying some speed there so it is hard to stay quiet up top but those videos of Rama and others show similar speed with very hard turns while still staying smooth and stylish. Knapton rides 15/-15 duck and his ass isn't in the air toeside. 

Edited December 27, 2017 by Neil Gendzwill

[Jack M]

2 hours ago, Rob Stevens said:

Sorry Jack. 

I took exception to this quote, not what you just said recently. They sound different to me, where one sounds like a set up for a hard vs. soft head to head, while the other states that competent hardbooters can switch to soft, add a wide board and out carve these two.

They're your words though, so I won't presume to tell you what you meant. Just a misunderstanding.

No prob, but I had also quoted the video, and said "better than that", meaning, better than the guys in the video.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.

As for those guys, like I said, glad to see the interest, they have potential, but they have some work to do.

I'm getting into sb carving now that I have a board wide enough to prevent bootout.  I'm having a ball and carving better than I thought possible, but I'll just say that the softboots and bindings I've tried (Burton Driver X, Burton Genesis X, Now O-Drive) are not up to the task at the levels of steepness, speed, and surface hardness at which I would like to ride.  I think this is backed up by the fact that nobody races FIS GS or SL in softboots.  And that's ok, but it makes having a sb vs hb carving debate kind of unnecessary.

I think the reaction to the video here comes mostly from the butt-in-the-air toesides.  The heelsides and transitions are good, maybe even exemplary, but there are better sb carvers than this.  Add in the presumptive "how to carve on a snowboard" title and the video becomes insulting to those who are passionate about carving and who have worked hard to get their butt out of the air.

Cheers.

[Rob Stevens]

1 hour ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

It's definitely a matter of perspective. I know we look weird to many softbooters. There are softie carvers that don't look awkward to my eye. However the guys in the video you are referencing do look awkward. Their butts are way in the air on toeside, their arms are flailing around. I understand they are carrying some speed there so it is hard to stay quiet up top but those videos of Rama and others show similar speed with very hard turns while still staying smooth and stylish. Knapton rides 15/-15 duck and his ass isn't in the air toeside. 

The duality of your statement is interesting.

It's both a "matter of perspective" and simultaneously that they "do look awkward". You should probably follow the second statement with a "to me, and some others here". Forgive me for putting words in your mouth, but you saying it like that is what bothers me. In surfing, the initiation and setting of the rail is done in a position almost identical to this. The rider "sets", then performs a segment of the arc in a crouch. As the focus switches from the bottom turn to the lip, the surfer rises up from this position, to a stance most would associate with snowboarding. I like it down there... When I tried it, the sensation of speed was noticeable. The soft boot snowboarders/ surfers I showed it to were some of the most positive. To the contrary, Beckman thought (if I remember correctly) that it might have been somewhat effective, but not efficient. I just have to say I disagree, as personally the act of doing it really felt stable, fast and very controllable. That should be no surprise to anyone who rides low angle soft boots all the time. Personally, when I look at Ryan, I find his toe turn to be a simple inclination. It works too, though and his turns greatly pleasure me, so the idea that I think it's a bit "lazy" shouldn't matter to Ryan one bit.

That Rama guy is killing it. I also happen to think Mike Bray is killing it. Ryan also kills it. I humbly offer that I think they're all good because I know what "good" is, and have a pretty broad acceptance of all things sliding. Even that hang board.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Rob Stevens

[Rob Stevens]

26 minutes ago, Jack Michaud said:

No prob, but I had also quoted the video, and said "better than that", meaning, better than the guys in the video.  Sorry if that wasn't clear.

As for those guys, like I said, glad to see the interest, they have potential, but they have some work to do.

I'm getting into sb carving now that I have a board wide enough to prevent bootout.  I'm having a ball and carving better than I thought possible, but I'll just say that the softboots and bindings I've tried (Burton Driver X, Burton Genesis X, Now O-Drive) are not up to the task at the levels of steepness, speed, and surface hardness at which I would like to ride.  I think this is backed up by the fact that nobody races FIS GS or SL in softboots.  And that's ok, but it makes having a sb vs hb carving debate kind of unnecessary.

I think the reaction to the video here comes mostly from the butt-in-the-air toesides.  The heelsides and transitions are good, maybe even exemplary, but there are better sb carvers than this.  Add in the presumptive "how to carve on a snowboard" title and the video becomes insulting to those who are passionate about carving and who have worked hard to get their butt out of the air.

Cheers.

But they are carving on a snowboard. Well, as it appears to me and others. They're definitely not saying they're the only ones who can. Call it an error of omission, if you like, but just because they didn't call their video "How to carve on a snowboard (and others can, too!)" doesn't make it inaccurate. 

"Better than that" doesn't help me... Do you mean better than that in hardboots, or better than that, by any advanced or expert hardbooter, simply picking up soft boots, with a wide board and low angles? I strongly agree with the former (and the pointlessness of the "who carves harder" discussion) but disagree with the latter. I don't think that most hardbooters could be that immediately adaptable. Most would immediately put on the floppy boots and take a pass, let alone run it up to the speed and pressure Mike is at.

 

[barryj]

On 12/20/2017 at 11:02 AM, Jack Michaud said:

 

On 12/20/2017 at 9:08 AM, nicboun said:

 

A for effort, glad to see it.  But I think any advanced/expert hardboot carver here could jump on a softboot setup and carve better than that.  Assuming no boot-out.

 

I'd have to agree with Jack for once.............I really hope/expect I will be able to carve better than these guys on my softboot setup - Moss PQ60 + Burton "Step On" soft bindings + Bomber Power Plates.   I applaud their effort and there boards seem to track really well with little chatter but their bodies are ineffectively trying to keep up with their boards.

They are not driving the board (like a hardboot carver would know and really try to replicate even in softboots) their riding their boards, imho

Still, great to see..................

[Neil Gendzwill]

Rob, having opened up my post by saying it's a matter of perspective, I thought it should be clear enough that the rest of it would be from my perspective. So to be perfectly clear, from my perspective as a hard booter, many soft boot carvers look awkward including those two guys. There are soft boot carvers that look good to my eye. I don't think that what surfers are required to do has much relevance: their turn mechanics are different. 

[Rob Stevens]

4 minutes ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Rob, having opened up my post by saying it's a matter of perspective, I thought it should be clear enough that the rest of it would be from my perspective. So to be perfectly clear, from my perspective as a hard booter, many soft boot carvers look awkward including those two guys. There are soft boot carvers that look good to my eye. I don't think that what surfers are required to do has much relevance: their turn mechanics are different. 

Unless you own a surf shop in Tofino and want to enjoy the same movements you use on the water. Like Mike here.

You can open however you like, but if a blanket generalization then pops out as to the fact that it's not just your eye, but that they actually ARE awkward dismisses a fair number of people who think what they're doing looks stylish, in a surfing sort of way.

[Rob Stevens]

37 minutes ago, barryj said:

I'd have to agree with Jack for once.............I really hope/expect I will be able to carve better than these guys on my softboot setup - Moss PQ60 + Burton "Step On" soft bindings + Bomber Power Plates.   I applaud their effort and there boards seem to track really well with little chatter but their bodies are ineffectively trying to keep up with their boards.

They are not driving the board (like a hardboot carver would know and really try to replicate even in softboots) their riding their boards, imho

Still, great to see..................

You expect to do better than this? Between you and the others who think this is a slam dunk, I look forward to seeing the videos of your collective progress.

I'm definitely not saying "you can't". I don't know you at all, so perhaps you'll outdo them. I just sense that a number of you think this is pretty easy, when it's not. I'm also curious to know what "keeping up" would look like. I usually think of this in terms of anticipation, where if the turn ends in a slack, countered position, I'd see them as off the back. I don't see that here. I'll draw your attention to Tom's front hand in his toe turn. On soft boots in low angles, driving the hand and arm down there is a pretty effective way to engage the forward leg and pressure the start of the turn. Many won't do this as they fear getting launched over the bars. It looks different to alpine angles, as the arm will not come that far forward due to the stance angles. In short, if he drove it any harder, the f'ing wheels would come off.

As an added comment, the idea that you'd put power plates on that Moss, while running step on's with a board whose waist width is sub 26 makes me think that you're in for a surprise when you go for some "How to carve on a snowboard" heel turns.

Edited December 27, 2017 by Rob Stevens

[slopestar]

57 minutes ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Rob, having opened up my post by saying it's a matter of perspective, I thought it should be clear enough that the rest of it would be from my perspective. So to be perfectly clear, from my perspective as a hard booter, many soft boot carvers look awkward including those two guys. There are soft boot carvers that look good to my eye. I don't think that what surfers are required to do has much relevance: their turn mechanics are different. 

Im often told that I hardboot the same as I softboot. That there isn't a noticeable difference. Not sure if it's a compliment or not. Stink bug style on softies is a horrible thing