How you guys feeling about new soft boot carving phenomenon?

[xy9ine]

love it. alpine hardware introduced me to carving technique, but modern carve-able soft gear is what really makes me happy. would be nice if there were more wide, non-wavy edged, cambered decks options out there, but hey. i am seeing quite a few more softbooters working their edges these days; does seem to be catching on.  

[jtslalom]

I'm pretty sure that snowboarding originated with soft boots. I can say for sure that I was carving a soft board long before I was carving a hard deck. I vividly remember on my local hill that none of us had hard boot equipment until the early 90's. All throughout the late 80's we were carving on our soft boards. There were no parks or pipes then and all of us took pride in the way we rode. It was all about carving and searching for some side slope hit that we could jump off of. Today it seems like more and more kids are carving their soft decks for the same reasons we were 30 years ago. It was the only board we had and it was fun.

[piusthedrcarve]

I noticed Japan and Korea already have specific decks for softboot carving from alpine snowboard manufacturers like Moss, BC Extreme, Ogasaka, and etc.

They call it 'Hammer' deck, which we witness hammerhead shape of the nose to maximize the effective edge length.  Rocker outside of feet and Camber underfeet. Although most of all mountain boards has that same configuration (rocker-camber-rocker), those decks have carbon, titanial, or/and kevlar on their woodcore to make them more carving specific.  One interesting construction from those decks is shown below.

The 4 yellow parts are carbon beams.  The 'XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX' is kevlar.  In the center they used laminated titanial sheet.

The construction makes sense to me but I'm not a board builder so the effectiveness is unknown.  Only way would be testing them.   Luckily, I will have a chance to ride one before January and will report here. But just looking at it, it will have quiet different characteristics than titanial or carbon BX boards that we are familiar with.  Any thought on the above construction? Sean, Bruce, or ShredGrummer??

Oh. one  more thing. SCR is much shorter than WC BX boards, like 8-11.

Edited December 20, 2017 by piusthedrcarve
added more content

[Corey]

9 hours ago, xy9ine said:

would be nice if there were more wide, non-wavy edged, cambered decks options out there, but hey. 

https://www.donek.com/product/knapton-twin/

[MountainSlope]

We've noticed softboots are getting harder, so there are many possibilites for both to have great carving opportunities 

[nicboun]

 

[jtslalom]

piusthedrcarve,

I like your post but am very skeptical about some of those boards. I just bought a one year old 160 cm Ampid UNW8. Supposedly it is a good carving deck for softbooters. I think it has the carbon honey comb sheet and some other features that make it a good board for carving. I rode it twice this year and am not so sure that it is any better carving than any of my other boards. I have seen other boards like the one you posted above that claim to be great carving boards for softbooters. Hats off to all companies that are starting to see the light by trying to build a deck that softbooters can carve, however I would like to ride it first before purchasing it. I find myself questioning any board manufacturer that constructs a "soft boot carving board" that hasn't already been in the market of manufacturing hard carving decks or even boardercross boards. Personally I'd rather see it the other way around. I find myself still gravitating to hard boot carving decks and compare all the new "soft boot carving boards" I've ridden lately to my Rad Air Tanker. They just aren't there yet. I hope some day those manufactures reach the point of mastering soft boot carving decks. Hopefully it is coming soon.

jt

[Jack M]

2 hours ago, nicboun said:

 

A for effort, glad to see it.  But I think any advanced/expert hardboot carver here could jump on a softboot setup and carve better than that.  Assuming no boot-out.

[piusthedrcarve]

1 hour ago, jtslalom said:

piusthedrcarve,

I like your post but am very skeptical about some of those boards. I just bought a one year old 160 cm Ampid UNW8. Supposedly it is a good carving deck for softbooters. I think it has the carbon honey comb sheet and some other features that make it a good board for carving. I rode it twice this year and am not so sure that it is any better carving than any of my other boards. I have seen other boards like the one you posted above that claim to be great carving boards for softbooters. Hats off to all companies that are starting to see the light by trying to build a deck that softbooters can carve, however I would like to ride it first before purchasing it. I find myself questioning any board manufacturer that constructs a "soft boot carving board" that hasn't already been in the market of manufacturing hard carving decks or even boardercross boards. Personally I'd rather see it the other way around. I find myself still gravitating to hard boot carving decks and compare all the new "soft boot carving boards" I've ridden lately to my Rad Air Tanker. They just aren't there yet. I hope some day those manufactures reach the point of mastering soft boot carving decks. Hopefully it is coming soon.

jt

Hi jtslalom,

Ture.  I tried many 'Carving specific' boards from non-alpine snowboard manufacturers and realized their definition of carving and my expectations has a lot of gaps. :)  The mentioned manufacturers: Moss, Ogasaka, BC Streams, etc are main alpine snowboard manufacturers in Japan.  Interesting parts of the construction is using same materials but placed (partially) in where it needs most.  That's why I (and probably we all) want to hear from our beloving alpine snowboard builders like Sean, Bruce, or ShredGrummer.  

I have ridden many BX boards (Virus, SG, Oxess, F2, Apex).  So, once I test the board that has the above pictured construction, I may can tell better. It's gonna be a loaner too. 

Edited December 20, 2017 by piusthedrcarve

[skategoat]

The soft boot carving movement has two effects on our niche - 1) it makes carving respectable and, dare I say it, cool. 2) it drives alpine equipment further down the niche hole. Sure, you can carve hard and faster in alpine gear but at what cost? A second set of everything which means getting used to different angles. The incremental advantage of alpine gear is not worth it for a lot of people.

The alpinemanufacturers who recognise this trend and run with it are going to be the winners. Bruce is making more and more BX and soft boot boards. Donek has a foot in both sides. And the guys falling farthest behind? The companies that refuse to adapt. I don't want to name names but we know who they are. Who knows, maybe they are happy just selling to racers

Personally, in the past two seasons, I've found myself in soft boots over hard on about a 5:1 ratio.

I still love carving my Kessler or Coiler alpine when the conditions are right. But that's the problem - conditions are rarely just right. And I find my softie rig is just more versatile and forgiving. Last spring, I spent a day alternating soft and hard boots. At my local mountain, you can almost ride right into the rental room so I set up my boots on the floor for quick changes with the staff's blessing. I found myself having way more fun in my soft boots. No, I couldn't carve as hard but when I started hitting those mounds of soft snow in the afternoon, I wasn't getting pitched over the nose either. It helped that I was on a sweet Korua deck too. Those guys know how to make a soft boot carver.

It took a lot of experimentation to settle on the right combo of gear. For me it's a Korua Tranny Finder 157, Gecko Stealth plates, Drake Podium FF bindings and Burton Driver X boots.

Edited December 20, 2017 by skategoat

[Jack M]

8 hours ago, Corey said:

https://www.donek.com/product/knapton-twin/

Hmm, I thought he rode a 30cm waist.  26cm is pretty "normal".  I have size 10.5 Burton Driver X and I boot out on my stock (26cm) Winterstick if I try to carve low.  My brother-in-law and I are sharing a new Winterstick ST166 that we had made with a custom 27.5cm waist to match his old Fat Bob.  I don't boot out anymore.  It rails.

[xy9ine]

8 hours ago, Corey said:

https://www.donek.com/product/knapton-twin/

if i had the coin, i'd totally be bucking up for a custom wide flux. not much out there in the realm of stock production boards however. needless to say, i'm very happy that the fullbag diamondblade exists, tho would like to dabble in something wider than it's 26.5cm girth.  

[slopetool]

My next board is going to be a Donek Flux 167

[workshop7]

3 hours ago, slopetool said:

My next board is going to be a Donek Flux 167

Great board!  I had one made with a 28cm waist.  It ended up stretching out to 168.

[xy9ine]

^that sounds like the bees knees. dream build. 

[Sasquatch_Surfer]

3 hours ago, workshop7 said:

Great board!  I had one made with a 28cm waist.  It ended up stretching out to 168.

I just got a 168 Flux at 28.5 wide. It's a pretty sweet ride. 

[jtslalom]

piusthedrcarve,
If and when you do ride that "Hammer Deck", post a review. The board definitely looks cool, like it would totally rip through hard pack but its so difficult to tell by looking at it. I would just hate to drop $500 - $700 on a cool looking board that isn't what I expected it to be. 

Thanks

jt

[philw]

I think it's a good thing.

Most people could actually learn to carve a softboot board, like they can mostly learn to kind of carve a ski. I'd guess though that almost no one has any interest in learning inverted spinny aerials. Even then, by nature it's inherently competitive, and most people will be rubbish at it - it's too hard. Rather like aerial skiing, it's a fine and dandy thing, but it's not going to sell to a mass market. That was apparently forgotten by the snowboard industry.

I think the return to camber plus the Japanese carving trend are great things, and when I can't buy hard boots any more I'll buy what those guys use.

[Corey]

5 minutes ago, philw said:

Rather like aerial skiing, it's a fine and dandy thing, but it's not going to sell to a mass market. That was apparently forgotten by the snowboard industry.

I think the return to camber plus the Japanese carving trend are great things, and when I can't buy hard boots any more I'll buy what those guys use.

Brilliantly stated on both counts!  

[slopestar]

Let’s call it the adult snowboard movement. I felt so jilted by the industry in 2009 when all I could find was banana hammocks and magne-gimmic boards but not one decent camber deck. I was breaking and folding and ripping inserts out of burton customs like it was going out style. Fast forward to today...Several alpine decks and my honey of a custom Donek saber later and the industry went all powder for a couple years and now is latching on to the turn. Directional boards are finally out there again. All too soft IMHO... but Custom boards are available! We need a better binding... boots  are stiffer, but nothing new from binding manufacturers. I use Flow and have for over 20 years. Nidecker carbons were the only decent strap binding and now, Flow and Nidecker have merged. Most strapin bindings have a low to the snow heel cup that “promotes” boot out. I’m looking for a better soft boot to board interface! So we Adult snowboarders can go into a shop and ask for something really good instead of being told that a capita spring break with union bindings is the ultimate soft boot carver.   I’m not stupid, just old.... i.e. Adult

Edited December 21, 2017 by slopestar

[Shred Gruumer]

On 12/19/2017 at 5:31 AM, Pat Donnelly said:

Coiler BXFR - soft or hard boots, fun!!

Soft snow, groomers to hard pack . . . Handles it all well.

 

Nice Choice.....will be on my 159 BXFR soon...hard boot.

[scottishsurfer]

This is my first post here so please bare with me

I'm a fairly new rider in the scheme of things as i started in 2014 so i missed out all of the early years of snowboarding and as a result i have learned and ridden entirely in soft boots but like everyone on this forum I love feeling of riding the edge. I come from a mountain bike racing background where i raced downhill for a large number of years I started as a way to maintain my fitness over the winter but it soon became a proper passion of mines. Coming from racing bikes, tricks on the board have never been more than a somewhat fun side show to the main event of carving where the speed control and g forces are just down right addictive.

I'm in agreement with many here one of the biggest hindrance to soft boot carving is equipment, boots in general i find aren't stiff enough side to side(nose to tail) or dont offer enough support in general. I managed to kill two pairs of 32 primes(stiffest boot they made at the time) in the space of 4 months worth of riding one pair by blowing out the stitching where the boot was flexing at the ankle and on the second I snapped the tongue in half.... After that i went back to an old pair of vans i owned and got creative by bonding plastic strips down the spine of the of boot cutting the tongues out of an old pair of boots and bonding them to the back of the tongue of my vans vastly increasing there stiffness. In addition to that i also made a much larger beefier power strap that went fully around the boot outer. It only took me roughly 8 hours but now i have boots that actually seem to be stiff enough for the job.

Bindings need work also and possibly something even as basic as the mounting disc's may need a change. In the space of a year as my riding got stronger and my ability to manipulate and torque the board into and out of turns increased i broke 5 disks(4 rome and 1 union mini disk).. Looking for a pair of good stiff bindings i followed many of my soft compatriots suggestions and i got a pair of union ultra's which turned out to be possibly my worst purchase the base footbeds of this binding is no where near stiff enough for aggressive carving after roughly 30mins i would flex the footbed so much i would have ice packed under it to the extent i could fit a finger under it. I think its very telling at nearly all the Japanese and Korean carvers appear to be riding flux so i think that's probably where ill be heading next in the hope that there up to the job.

Board design i don't think we will see much changes in terms of width unless a major manufacturer decides to take a risk and it pays off for them. I recently demo'd the  Bataleon carver for about an hour, it was pretty much how i expected super solid and held an edge well right until boot out which i was expecting but It i felt compromised in terms of waist width to be able to be sold to the masses they kept it at a fairly narrow 26cm. The board has incredible potential to be a great board but its hamstrung by the manufacturer not being brave enough to leave its 25-26.5cm waist comfort zone and im pretty sure most manufacturers are unlikely to leave that comfort zone anytime soon. My current main carving board is a SG soul 159xt which has a waist of 27.5cm and compared to everything else i have ridden it is a true revelation but it does require a much stronger rider in terms of being able to get a board to go from edge to edge but if you can the board is truly exceptional and rewarding ride.

In terms of softboot carvers transfering to hardboots I'm hoping in the new year a skier friend of mine will come through on his promise of digging out his brothers hard boot set up for me to give it a try :) 

finally from a long time lurker i want to say thank you I've enjoyed reading this forum and i find it a great wealth of knowledge in terms of carving in technique.

[Duke]

Anybody on here ride the Virus AFT FLP?  I have heard good things about it being the ultimate in softboot carving.....but just can't get myself t drop the $$ on getting one.  it is double the cost of most soft boot boards.  Anyone able to give some input on it??

 

https://shop.virus-snowsports.com/produkt/virus-aft-flp-176/

[Shred Gruumer]

Just think at the ECES 2006 in Stow Coiler showed up with my 159 lunch tray.. .. Just sayin what is taken you guys so long.... bah

[kipstar]

In Japan because so many of the skiers carve well and don't tend to bomb runs, they place a value of riding technically quite well,  they do quite a bit of technical showcase riding and racing both gates and boardercross, so there are a lot of boarders on everything from boardercross boards to powder boards who can carve fairly ok - then there are a group (like the ppl in the videos above) who can carve a lot better than ok, it is not uncommon to look up the mountain and see numerous ppl carving quite strongly often not on this type of board, in the softer snow, you can see them on a surfer type board where the set back is enormous, those guys also can really carve it up as long as it is soft.   The boards made for carving including those brands are still not common, almost rare like hardboot set ups, but many ppl carve a bit on more basic/std equipment. 

It is quite common though for skiers (both tourists and Japanese) to comment to me or others when we are riding hardboots how carving on a hardboot set up looks fairly epic, whereas the soft boot set up looks like more work to acheive an inferior version of the same thing.  I guess on par with anything, it's easier to go fast on a tribike vs. a mountain bike, but it's a lot less versatile.  Personally I think the more ppl who are riding a snowboard to carve, the better; while you can ride a park and pipe as a kid, it's hard to keep doing it as you get older when the consequence of an injury affects work rather than just stopping u go to school/college a bit.

U see so much weird gear over there (tele, touring, snow bikes, snow skates, fat skis, std skis, boards of numerous types) and the runs are often set up where the same lift accesses knee deep as well as groomers and a park that there isn't really a trying to look cool aspect with regards to gear type -that is acheived in Japan through
- must have most recent year of equipment
- accessories especially for women is absolutely critical
- should ride in a group often even wearing the same uniforms
- must follow same routine together - ride,eat,break, everything together
- solid technique
- onsen, beer and ramen :-)