Board width - what is going on???

[WinterGold]

Almost since I started sliding down a mountain on a snowboard, I have been wondering about why most of the snowboards are as wide as they are.

A short excursion to the softboot world (Yeah, sorry about that ... it is just to make my point clearer ...).

So first I measure my feet. I would say that I don´t have big feet - they are 26,4cm long, but rather wide and a high instep.

If I add a softboot (with really short sole length design) and some bindings, I have to add at least 1cm or 1,5cm to the whole setup. This leaves us with about 28cm overall.

Now I go to Burton (market leader, you could take other brands as well!) and choose a board. All the top boards are somewhere around 25cm wide.

So it seems that there will be some trouble. Maybe I take a look at their X versions (the wider ones). Instead of 25,4cm the X version is 25,8cm. How is that gone do anything???

Next I mount the setup to the board. As I want to do some freestyle I use 0 degree on the backfoot. Major bootout!!!

So a snowboarding expert tells me that this can´t work. I have to use higher angles. Ok. No problem. I rotate the back binding up to 20 degrees. But the overall length of the setup hardly changes at all! Just measure it! Again - major bootout!!!

What is going on???

 

Now I turn to alpine snowboarding, because this is what we are here for. 

When riding with Justin Reiter, he constantly talked about the best compromise between power and control (He also talked about most skiers being sheep, but that is another story ...). If I take his idea to the snowboard setup, I come to the golden backfoot angle of 45 degrees. Now, don´t get me wrong. I am not saying that this is the best angle or that everybody should ride it. No way!!! But it is a damn good starting point!!!

How many of you can mount their backfoot bindings on their boards at 45 degrees and have no bootout?

I can´t. Because most production boards from the big companies at the moment are around 20cm at the waist. Again measuring the length of my complete setup at 45 degrees, there is no way I fit on a 20cm wide board. Major bootout!!! 

And although this angle is inside the range of recommended angles by most companies, there is no way I can ride it on their boards with my Mondopoint 27.0 boots.

What is going on???

 

I asked this question several guys from the industry over and over again over the past decades, but I never got a really satisfying answer.

Of course, there is one. But it is rather lame. In order to serve the world wide market, you have to make a compromise. The Asian riders mostly don´t want or need wide boards. So you choose a board width which the Asians can still accept and the Americans and the Europeans barely fit on. 

 

There is a "new" trend among the softboot riders. After focusing way too much on park and pipe for decades, they "discover" carving. They look at Taro Tamai and his crew from Japan for inspiration. The pursuit of the perfect turn. Many companies have already started producing special shapes for this kind of riding. A new company called Korua focuses entirely on making turns in powder and on the groomed slopes as well.

But in order to carve on a slope, most companies would have to start reconsidering their board widths ...

Edited January 14, 2017 by WinterGold

[BlueB]

You don't have to be fully inboard even for EC... I ride my full on carvers with few mm of bail overhang in the back foot, while my freeride/fooling/teaching boards might have up to 20mm overhang in the back and 25-30 degree back foot (ski boots 26.5). 

Response is better with a bit of overhang. With softy beginners it's almost impossible to teach them toe side if they are set with no overhang in front... 

[lonbordin]

Yeah... Custom boards and UPZ boots are really the only option for bigger feet and lower angles.

More work for our fabulous custom board builders.

[nutmeg]

2 hours ago, WinterGold said:

How many of you can mount their backfoot bindings on their boards at 45 degrees and have no bootout?

... raises hand. Pure Boarding Black Diamond 162 (b 39° /f 51°).

(It is not the only wider board around, see e.g. BX boards (Völkl Coal Race) or the SG Cult.)

[pokkis]

I hated wide boards earlier, never rode anything wider than 18, but now my boards are 20+

Mainly to survive better on days when there is soft snow.

And yes i can set my angles 45 on my Swellpanic and on my all-round Coiler

[Corey]

From what I see around here, the answer is that overhang doesn't matter when you're just sideslipping between features.  I regularly see people that have 2+ inches of overhang on the toe edge. 

See Mr. Knapton's 30+ cm custom boards for use with softboots. 

I won't buy alpine boards under a 20cm waist now.  Much below that and it feels more like a Skwal to me. Skwals are fun in their own right, but I primarily want to snowboard. 

[ursle]

Let's remember that for competition(gates) a snowboard must be 16.1mm or wider, why? Because any thinner and they won the race, it was unfair for wider boards.

 

[pokkis]

58 minutes ago, lonbordin said:

Yeah... Custom boards and UPZ boots are really the only option for bigger feet and lower angles.

More work for our fabulous custom board builders.

I ride with same angles on UPZ as i was riding with Deeluxe.

Total length of all bit and pieces is bout same. But UPZ has much better colors

[H2O]

2 hours ago, pokkis said:

I hated wide boards earlier, never rode anything wider than 18, but now my boards are 20+

Mainly to survive better on days when there is soft snow.

And yes i can set my angles 45 on my Swellpanic and on my all-round Coiler

Hi Pokkis, which model of board is this?

vsr AM?

See you next week in Ovindoli?

[H2O]

I don t ride boards narrower than 22 and with my 22,5 wide I set 45/52 with a 27 boot size.

[softbootsurfer]

SB at 45 45 for over thirty years ...quickest reactions possible for me personally...Toe, Heel recoveries, and I only Carve on Groom or in the Pow...nothing else matters to me...no Hands as outriggers either, only Edge

on all the Burtons I have had, which is over 40 different sticks with my SB size 27.5 it put my TOES on the EDGE and my HEELS on the EDGE...no boot out at 90 degrees, Frontside or Backside...also this is with a 20" stance width, with the front foot back as far in the slot and the Back foot as far forward as possible, the boards I have had through the years were never really designed for such narrow stances either, as their suggested stance widths are wider for Duck stances in general...my current board a Land Lord is the best Stick with this set up I have ever had for both Carving Groom and Pow...though the rocker is irritating as the 6"additional edge length on the backside turn ( HEEL ) allows a flutter to appear in the track at times...maybe an asymmetrical with rocker would be better 

Edited January 14, 2017 by softbootsailer

[philw]

I ride 45/45 on a Kessler SL with whatever size feet I have - not huge (small F2 bindings) - and no boot out. That is.... my bindings are near the edges, but there's no functional boot out and no trace of it in my pencil lines, if that makes sense.

So perhaps "what is going on" is that it matters a little less than one may think, or the actual angles non-EC riders reach don't have that much of an issue with it.

Personally I went up in angle with the fashion to around 60 degrees parallel, and I have a board with those tiny waist dimensions, but I worked my way back up to my current machine. I guess they're all compromises. I also like to ride the Landlord, albeit only in powder.

 

What is going on? I guess you mean "how come we can get away with boots which are fatter than the boards". So the answer would be I guess:

1. There's some geometry there so having your boots sticking out isn't quite as bad as one may think
2. Soft booters don't care as they mostly sideslip, and where they don't, they use wider boards
3. Hard booters have to increase their angles for narrower boards. There's presumably a relationship between minimum workable angle and board width.

The reason for the compromise in (3) is presumably that narrow boards (eg the Euro Virus boards you see here) are quick to turn. The trade off is.... I'm not sure, as I don't ride one ;-)

[Jack M]

Paging Mr. @RyanKnapton

[drschwartz]

Nobody so far has mentioned risers and plates. These go a long way towards solving boot out, and also allow the application of more power to the edge.

From full on isolation plates down to the Palmer risers for soft boots, these can allow lower angles on thinner boards.

[drschwartz]

Nobody so far has mentioned risers and plates. These go a long way towards solving boot out, and also allow the application of more power to the edge.

From full on isolation plates down to the Palmer risers for soft boots, these can allow lower angles on thinner boards.

[lordmetroland]

15 hours ago, WinterGold said:

What is going on???

I asked this question several guys from the industry over and over again over the past decades, but I never got a really satisfying answer.

If you asked the yogurt guys why they went from eight ounce to six ounce containers but didn't change the price, you might get a similarly dissatisfying answer. I can't shake the idea that there that there's a nefarious reason the mainstream snowboard industry keeps pushing shorter and shorter boards, especially for powder. The prices don't seem to be shrinking commensurately. I bought a 163W Jones Carbon Flagship on Craigslist a couple summer's ago. When I got it home, honest to god, I discovered that Jones had shorted me three centimeters of snowboard. And that f*** Jeremy Jones seems so trustworthy. Lib Tech's Skunk Ape Ultrawide (28.7cm) was like a revelation. I traded out the dopey Magnetraction for 30 more centimeters of similarly wide Hazelwood and couldn't be happier.

[neanderthal]

The wider a board is the more leverage it takes to tip onto the sidecut. That extra width also gives the chop and crud a longer lever arm to throw you around with as opposed to a narrower ride cutting through the chop.  A wider board makes it much harder for me to put as much weight/force on the edge. Think scraping ice off your windshield with an 8" scraper vs holding onto the end of a 4' scraper. Sure it is nice not to walk around the car to clear the other side but when the ice is difficult you walk around and choke up on the handle. ( Havnt ridden it yet but this is probably a big part of the reason the MK is so narrow )

Thats about how I select my ride for the day -  

• If it looks like stuff I can brush off my windshield I use a longer handle and a wider board
• If there isnt anything on my windshield I use a mid-sized waisted board
• If I see an inclined skating rink I bring out a narrower board

 I recently have been riding a wider board (Jones Ultracraft 26.4cm waist). It takes  a lot more energy to carve but with the rear foot at slacker angles I can force a turn easier. By using my feet like walking you can slide the rear with the full force of your Quads when you toes are pointed across the board. As I am recovering from a Knee injury to my LEFT/front knee I have played with a number of factors tuning what works biomechanically best for me and found that my knee likes angles not less than 45degrees because these put too much lateral force  against the axis off the joint while steeper angles the forces work with the joint axis.

DrSchwartz reminds us of riser plates but canting  for similar reasons can also help bootout on a narrower ride because not every turn puts the board edge perpendicular to the snow. Canting with the rise given by TD3 lets me ride slacker angles than Catek (less rise) or Rat Traps (not sure why? but along with the dampening provided from a big bomber elastomer this is a big reason for my Franken-Bomber Rat Trap)

 Lets also remember Gilmour bias or reverse Gilmour may help with preventing bootout and riding.

I have mondo 27 and for a regular carving ride cant TODAY imagine  wanting a board wider than 23cm -  That said I agree with the sentiment of LordMetroLand about the economic incentive driving most companies. We are very lucky in the alpine world to be able to ask for a truly custom board for not much more than an off the self jibbing/softboot ride.

They do have some tech we havent  adopted yet like the 3D nose or Spoon tech which I would love to see incorporated into an alpine ride and while I do not fully comprehend SoftBootSailor's assymetric rocker idea it sounds like something I would love to try.

 

[WinterGold]

Reading through your comments, I read about a lot of compromises. This is ok and only reasonable. But I don´t want it!

Blue B, you have a lot of experience and your post is totally correct, but it also proves my point! You can get away with 20mm of overhang in total (10mm per edge), but it is not perfect! And taking my example, it would mean that coming from 28cm for my setup, the board would have to be at least 26cm wide. Hardly any Burton board is 26cm wide! And from my experience, I DO have bootout problems on a 26cm wide board, if I tilt it up high enough. Not ideal.

lonbordin and others, customs are great! But I am more talking about the production boards here, because I don´t understand their thinking!

About all mountain boards - SG Cult, PB Bastard, All Mountain Coiler, etc. - those are very nice and versatile boards! But if the slopes are really hardpacked, I want a dedicated raceboard. They are the best performers for me personally! And I don´t mind carrying various boards with me to the mountain!

Corey, I agree 100%!

ursle, that is a theory I don´t really believe. If narrower boards would be faster in a race course and the regulations say that a snowboard must be over 16cm wide then everybody would be on a 16.1cm wide board, but in fact nobody is in the World Cup!!! And I remember the old times when Burton riders won on their 22cm boards against way narrower competition.

softbootsailor - congrats on finding a setup that works for you! I envy you! But would you agree that 45 degrees on the backfoot is very unusual for SB? You cannot even turn the new generation of Burton bindings (and others as well) to such a high angle!

philw - you must have really small hardboots! Perfect setup!!! But that is exactly my point! With mondo 27.0 I cannot ride my Kessler at 45 degrees at the backfoot and I want to! And most of my friends and other riders have even bigger feet than me. They have zero chance ...

Jack, that is a good point!!! Why is Ryan (US size 8.5!!!) riding a 31.2cm wide board???

drschwartz - most people don´t like risers on a softboot board. On an alpine board it does help! But even with a plate, I cannot use 45 degrees on a 20cm wide board with a mondo 27.0!

lordmetroland - I don´t even get why a 28.7cm wide board is called ultrawide! That should be kind of the norm! Because the average shoe size of an American male is US10.5. That is 28.5cm! 

[teach]

On 1/14/2017 at 9:17 AM, WinterGold said:

Next I mount the setup to the board. As I want to do some freestyle I use 0 degree on the backfoot. Major bootout!!!

So a snowboarding expert tells me that this can´t work. I have to use higher angles. Ok. No problem. I rotate the back binding up to 20 degrees. But the overall length of the setup hardly changes at all! Just measure it! Again - major bootout!!!

What is going on???

The span of a boot toe to heel is about the same measured from one corner of the heel to the opposite corner of the toe. That diagonal line is at around 15 degrees, depending on the boot size and shape. So rotating +/- 15 degrees from perpendicular won't make a change in boot overhang, other than for what part of the board's sidecut you're over. (So duck has an advantage here.)

I rode 26.5 cm waist boards with M30 soft boots and had to ride with my back foot at about 40 degrees to avoid serious boot out. Yes, I don't get it either.

On 1/14/2017 at 9:17 AM, WinterGold said:

How many of you can mount their backfoot bindings on their boards at 45 degrees and have no bootout?

On my 23 cm waist board, with M28 hard boots, I'm at about 48 degrees. Some toe bail overhang.

On 1/14/2017 at 9:17 AM, WinterGold said:

In order to serve the world wide market, you have to make a compromise. The Asian riders mostly don´t want or need wide boards. So you choose a board width which the Asians can still accept and the Americans and the Europeans barely fit on. 

I'd think you'd see racers on wider boards, then, since they're usually custom spec'd. And if the Asian market is being catered to, why are boots so big? UPZ's smallest shell fits everything from 25 down. That covers over 70% of the population, I'm sure.

 

6 hours ago, neanderthal said:

The wider a board is the more leverage it takes to tip onto the sidecut. That extra width also gives the chop and crud a longer lever arm to throw you around with as opposed to a narrower ride cutting through the chop.

 

6 hours ago, neanderthal said:

As I am recovering from a Knee injury to my LEFT/front knee I have played with a number of factors tuning what works biomechanically best for me and found that my knee likes angles not less than 45degrees because these put too much lateral force  against the axis off the joint while steeper angles the forces work with the joint axis.

I hear ya. I'm not sure if it's the angles or the board's leverage, but on boards wider than 20 cm my knees get seriously punished. I find around 60 degrees works really well, and that dictates a 19 - 20 cm waist. I don't have much experience with boards narrower than 19 cm, but I feel like I get thrown around more rather than less with those.

[Rob Stevens]

While this seems like a pretty weak reason, my understanding is that ptex comes in fairly narrow rolls. 

A pal o mine is the product manager for one company. They're of the new breed making wider boards. A few of their models are 32 to 33 cms wide at the nose. This was unusual enough that they had to custom order ptex sheets. 

Up to then, the standard width was a few cms narrower. This would make the noses of boards cut from that ptex about 30 max. Going from there, you can see where underfoot and waist widths would be narrower still. 

With the embracing of carving in the mainstream, I expect you'll see wider, stock boards, and the inclusion of underfoot measurement specs listed in the descriptions of new models. I think it's as important as any other width-based metric.  

For now, if you don't want to pay for custom, your choices are limited, but if I wanted a wide, all round shortboard that could carve, I'd probably go towards a Yes 20/20. I did question the length for pows, but the convex nose answered that concern. She floats. I will say the length is still an issue for fast carving, as that seems to be more about effective edge contact. 

 Overhang in general really depended on the application. When I raced, I had my planches set up with some. I wouldnt default to high angle edging as the base requirement, as I'd only be doing that I I fucked up and had to lay it over to stay in the course. Thinking that I'd usually only be at 60 to 70 degrees, I'd angle more for good pressure control, over absolute edge angle. The above is so snow dependent... my tolerances were based on softer, western snow. If I was on ice (or injected) snow, I'd probably look at things differently. 

[Apex Insider]

On 1/14/2017 at 7:08 PM, drschwartz said:

Nobody so far has mentioned risers and plates. These go a long way towards solving boot out, and also allow the application of more power to the edge.

From full on isolation plates down to the Palmer risers for soft boots, these can allow lower angles on thinner boards.

We estimate you can get 10-15 degrees more edge angle with 15mm of lift. It's not the primary reason we developed the Gecko plates but it's a nice bonus benefit.

The main reason soft boot boards are so darn wide is because of boot out. When you run angles below 15 degrees on a 25cm waist board, you can get boot out with size 10 boots (if you carve hard). So Burton offers 26cm wide boards.

If you read some of the mainstream snowboarding forums, you'll frequently hear complaints about boot out. The solution offered is always "get a wide board" without any thought to the performance penalties associated with it. But then again, a wide board is not an issue if you don't carve.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Apex Insider
Fixed a typo

[lonbordin]

 

4 minutes ago, Apex Insider said:

with 15cm of lift.

[Apex Insider]

5 minutes ago, lonbordin said:

 

Oops. That should be 15mm! Typo!

[WinterGold]

Rob Stevens - the 20/20 is a really interesting concept!!! Fortunately there are more and more options becoming available. I already mentioned the Korua brand. The shaper has a good knowledge of alpine snowboarding, so the boards are very versatile! And this year SG brought out the Soul 59 XT - an excellent choice for softboot carving! And there are many more!

But still - the majority of boards have some pretty strange waist widths 

Apex Insider - you CAN get boot out with a size 10 on a 25cm board??? You have major boot out all the time!!! And how is a 26cm wide board going to change a lot, when your feet alone are 28cm long??? And why should a wider board be bad for carving??? It is the only way, if you really want to carve and have to use high tilt angles when the slopes get steeper. There is no way around it. Have you seen Ryan Knapton´s videos? Size US8.5 and a 31.2cm wide board and he rips the hell out of it!!!

[JRAZZ]

Hmmm.....

 

 

Size 10 boots, 25.5cm wide board.  Don't see major bootout.  (angles are 27/6.  The rear is on the left in the picture)

 

 

Honestly, what are you trying to get at?  Are Burton, NS, etc foolish?  Are they trying to pander to the sideslipping majority completely ignoring everybody else?

Or maybe what you describe as major bootout is not as major as you put it?

 

 

I would exclude Knapton out of this discussion.  He's a very accomplished SBer who knows what he wants and said that the board he has would not be good for most people.

!Besides, he side slips