Board width - what is going on???

[BlueB]

3 hours ago, RCrobar said:

I found that skidders are probably tipping their board up on edge about 20 degrees.  People just learning to carve a few turns tipped their board up on edge about 40 degrees.  The aggressive softboot carvers, like the many Japanese videos around right now are pretty consistently tipped their board on edge around 60 degrees. and Extremecarvers and racers were often in the 80 degree range.  This is the 2-4-6-8 idea.  To simply things even more, the 30-60-90 seemed easier.  30 = new or easy carving, 60 = aggressive hard carving, and 90 = extremely hard carving.  These guidelines could help a rider better predict boot out when carving.  Yes, there were exceptions, but there was a definite pattern.

Rob, 

I'm yet to see a scientific proof of edge angle of 90 and holding. It doesn't jive from physics point of view. I touched on that in my post above. Over and above, at 90 deg of inclination, the board would want to bend into infinitely tight radius, which we know to not happen. I'm tempted to say, but of course can not prove that workable edge inclinations top at about 80 degrees... 

Is it probably more of a 15-45-75 idea? 

[RCrobar]

Hi Blue

Quote

 

I'm yet to see a scientific proof of edge angle of 90 and holding. It doesn't jive from physics point of view. I touched on that in my post above. Over and above, at 90 deg of inclination, the board would want to bend into infinitely tight radius, which we know to not happen. I'm tempted to say, but of course can not prove that workable edge inclinations top at about 80 degrees... 

Is it probably more of a 15-45-75 idea? 

 

I agree with you completely Blue, I don't think 90 degrees is actually possible; but I am not an engineer!  I think Cory's post explaining why 80 degrees is possible is bang on as well!

The way I perceived the 30-60-90 idea was not a literal angle that can be achieved, more of a guideline for new to carving guys trying to figure out how much a boot can hang over the edge on a board that may be too narrow for them.  Also, for people to remember things they need to be simple and 'catchy' phrase, this is also part of the 30-60-90 idea ... that's all.  

Rob

[BlueB]

I know, that's exactly why I'm suggesting the 15-45-75 as the guide of how much you can overhang. 80 already gives you quite a bit of overhang option, depending on how high your boot sits over the board. In the soft snow you might drag a bit at 80, but it wont blow your carve. On hard snow if you were above 80, you've blown out already, no matter overhang or not... 

[lonbordin]

11 minutes ago, BlueB said:

I know, that's exactly why I'm suggesting the 15-45-75 as the guide of how much you can overhang. 80 already gives you quite a bit of overhang option, depending on how high your boot sits over the board. In the soft snow you might drag a bit at 80, but it wont blow your carve. On hard snow if you were above 80, you've blown out already, no matter overhang or not... 

Sorry for getting further off-topic but I wonder what is the optimum angles (+ or - 10*) on a typical slope with firm/groomed conditions.

Edit- I was thinking it would be good to instruct new carvers to get a feel for what say 60* feels like on the carpet that way they'd have a target when on the hill...

Edited January 20, 2017 by lonbordin
moar... always moar...

[BlueB]

12 minutes ago, lonbordin said:

Sorry for getting further off-topic but I wonder what is the optimum angles (+ or - 10*) on a typical slope with firm/groomed conditions.

Edit- I was thinking it would be good to instruct new carvers to get a feel for what say 60* feels like on the carpet that way they'd have a target when on the hill...

Yes, I like that! I think that we all overestimate the angle our boards gets to, while carving. 

Assuming that your question is about edge inclination angle, my guess is 45*, for the reasons I explained earlier. This would vary with speed and tightness of the turn. Of course, while the 45 might be the grippiest angle, we all strive for more, as that's where the fun is - pushing the limits ;) 

[lonbordin]

15 minutes ago, BlueB said:

Yes, I like that! I think that we all overestimate the angle our boards gets to, while carving. 

Assuming that your question is about edge inclination angle, my guess is 45*, for the reasons I explained earlier. This would vary with speed and tightness of the turn. Of course, while the 45 might be the grippiest angle, we all strive for more, as that's where the fun is - pushing the limits ;) 

I'm leaving to go push those limits... but I wonder where @Donek got his numbers on the Board Angulation Guide.

[SnowboardingJ]

6 hours ago, RCrobar said:

...... Being a certified long time hardboot nut-ball, I moved to plan B.  What I did was get a 32" monitor and started to watch a LOT of Youtube videos of all kinds of carvers; hardboots, softboots, racers, extremecarvers, etc.  By freezing hundreds of pictures on screen, placing painters tape on the screen on the angle created by the base of the board tipped up on edge and the surface of the snow, then using a large protractor ... I recorded WAY too many base edge angles to see if there was a pattern of any type.  I feel there was a pattern, which lead me to this idea of couple edge guidelines: .......... 

 

Several weeks ago I started a thread asking 'how far can a board be tipped over?'  My hope was to better understand edge angle, board width and how it related to boot out.

 Thanks to the internet, I too was watching a lot of youtube videos even in slow motion to reverse engineer their movement.  I was missing a great deal before 2010.  Imagine if we have more carving movies or trailers like carving plugin, installer, people could actually see how awesome hardboot carving is.

 

 

From my personal experience: (if it is different than your, perhaps we can discuss the variable)

It is a balance between wash out and boot out.

As my boards gets wider without any overhang, wash out occur way more than boot out on hard condition.

With about a cm overhang on heel side(boot overhang, GNU binding, no heel cup, I had my forward lean cranked way high..... knees comes out of the toe side edge a bit before the forward lean kicks in), I have not experience any boot out on hero days.

Wash out now becomes the major curpit on hard day or with any less forward lean.

on my NS EVO, with Salomon shadow fit binding (which the heel loop was very thin and high), I had about a few cm overhang on the heel loop if I remembered correctly.  The snow touches the same boot and heel loop at the same Angle.  I would boot out on hero or soft snow when I tilt it high, be it green, blue or black.  On green, as I turn tighter and tighter on toe side, my heel side follow.  Occasionally, heel side would boot out.  On any thing steeper, my toe side was way tighter than my heel side, tipping it over anything exciting would boot out definitely on the first 2 turns heel side.

With the underhang setup, heel side wash out carry a significant higher percentage than a success carve.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2017 by SnowboardingJ

[SnowboardingJ]

2 hours ago, BlueB said:

.....Pic 1 has more wrong stuff. Let's start with sentence "Edge angle to snow surface is irrelevant to edge hold", which is very wrong. It's common sense - stand still on flat ice, flat skis, then have someone gently push your boots sideways and you'll skid. Then balance over the angled edge and suddenly there is no skid. Of course, that brings us back to the Resulting Vector from Pic 2 and that is what the Pic 1 should be showing, not just the plain direction from CM to the edge....

"Edge angle to snow surface is irrelevant to edge hold" by itself is incorrect, and I agree. 

 

The picture does show how "angulation" compensating loss of edge hold with reducing edge angle by moving the center mass.

Without proper angulation to place the center mass to create that downward vector, all force will result in paralleling with the slope, and no edge pressure applied.

The inability to create that downward vector/force effectively in duck stance is what makes the heel side so difficult.

 

 

2 hours ago, BlueB said:

The ideal edge angle to the snow is the one that offers ideal compromise of opposing the Resulting Force Vector AND driving the edge into the snow for the grip.

Concur

 

 

[SnowboardingJ]

2 hours ago, BlueB said:

The ideal edge angle to the snow is the one that offers ideal compromise of opposing the Resulting Force Vector AND driving the edge into the snow for the grip. So it can not be 0 and it can not be 90. You guessed by now... ideal is about 45, depending on the situation. Yes racers and EC riders go higher then that, but that is to: 1) tighten the turn radius,

tight radius is often needed for speed control for the next turn.

 

2 hours ago, BlueB said:

 

2) oppose the centrifugal force of tight turn at high speed. 

 

isn't that where the fun is? 

 

Edited January 20, 2017 by SnowboardingJ

[Zone]

Great discussion.

Rob, that's some crazy time you have on your hands ;-)

In soft/hero snow, why can't 90 not be possible? You are digging a 2 inch trench, you now have a 2 inch vertical wall to lean your board against. No boot out even if dragging because your boot is scrubbing off snow at high speed yet the snow is too soft to lift your edge off the trench.

Just wondering.

[RCrobar]

Quote

Is it probably more of a 15-45-75 idea?

 

Hi BlueB

I think if I had to pick and actually use one of these guidelines as a teacher, I would probably pick the 2-4-6-8 for a couple of reasons.

1) The kids song sticks in the brain:  "2 - 4 - 6 - 8 who do we appreciate, yeah Fin!!"  Really easy to remember.

2) I also think that 20,40, 60 and 80 degrees is probably closer to what is happening; based on my super high tech painters tape system:)

The only idea that I don't quite agree with you on is the 80 degree number.  I recorded a lot of ECer's in the 82, 83, 84 degree range on a pretty consistent basis; there was a heel side vs toe side difference to this sometimes, I think this also should be noted.  

Cheers

Rob

Edited January 20, 2017 by RCrobar

[RCrobar]

Quote

In soft/hero snow, why can't 90 not be possible?

Hi Zone

I honestly don't have a clue why this would or would not work?  

I imagine the tip and tail hang up too high for the center to touch, but then you factor in soft snow and then the math is beyond me.  I personally find that when it 'feels' like 90 degrees I crash into a superman slide down the hill ... which is probably more about my personal skill limitations as an old fart!

Cheers
Rob

 

[philw]

31 minutes ago, Zone said:

In soft/hero snow, why can't 90 not be possible? You are digging a 2 inch trench, you now have a 2 inch vertical wall to lean your board against. No boot out even if dragging because your boot is scrubbing off snow at high speed yet the snow is too soft to lift your edge off the trench.

It depends what you mean, precisely. What do you mean by "soft"? Powder is fairly "soft", most of us would likely agree, but you're going to have some fun scoring a 90 degree angle in it because... it's soft. So you're I suppose trying to define some degree of softness which is enough to provide the centripetal force you'll need to overcome gravity, but not enough for your pinkies to cause a problem. Intuitively that seems unlikely.  You could of course tilt the slope a bit to get a slight advantage, or ask the Russians to fix the numbers for you ;-)

[Zone]

Lol sorry.

I didn't mean powder.

I was comparing West coast hero snow vs East coast frozen over snow.

PS those Russians were killing themselves laughing today with numbers.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

So, after all that, I believe that Snowboard J and I have arrived at a common point of reference. Our current difference may lie in how to best position softboot bindings on a board for best effect, or, perhaps in how highbacks work or can be tweaked to work better. IF I could post photos of my gear (without internet interruption, ahem) , you would then see where I've placed my set-up to best effect. I run a differential of probably +-9*, with the front more upright than the rear. I ride directional most of the time, with a 'splay' of 9-to-18 degrees difference on most any board, regardless of the front foot angle (and, often, if the board is 'skinny', the rear-foot boot-out potential governs the stance angles anyhow, as it's usually at the lesser angle, and has more width across the board). I use the 'Gilmour Offset' [still cracks me up, 'cause by '85, I already doing this!, And did it unintentionally on my '80 Flite 140, too!] of keeping my rear toe closer to the edge, and my front heel also closer to it's edge, unless I ride 'Duck', where I'll equal that out to remove 'switch' riding bias (highbacks will also get less differential in forward lean then, to help with Fakie riding).

I have to grin at the 90* of edge tilt ideas. It is possible, but not long enough to call it 'part of your turn'. One board I could do this on was my Rad-Air Obsession, BUT, on groomers, it only occurred at the Rear Foot. Let me explain; I could Vitelli this board in certain snow conditions, using plates (such as F-2/Rad-Airs or IBEX/Burtons) set well inboard of the edges (like more than a CM inside the sidewall) with moderate angles (being in the 50-40 range), but I'd have to 'let off' the nose a good bit. The way to achieve that was to 'flatten' the edge pressure f the front foot, effectively making the nose do a skidding carve (Vs 'bending' Carve that overhooks), while the tail was being set Hard and steep by my rear foot. I'd take my hands OFF the snow (per " Karol's-don't-Pat-the-Dog "), and see what else (hip, knee, boots) was dragging. If I wasn't at 90*, it was 88*, at least from the mid-to-tail! I did this once past Neville Burt's instructor clinic at Stratton, and his comment later was along the lines of 'Bloody nice Fall recovery', but it wasn't a "fall" at all..

The other places I did get well past 90 were not 'carves', but surf-like slashes into windlips, and twice in soft 1/2 Pipes. The Obsession did this better than even my Tankers, but I've 'gone over' on a quite a few boards, and left tracks that were clean, if perhaps 'bounced' off the base as compared to an edge-only carve.

So, I agree, great discussion, and I again thank you all for the insights!!

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Hey, what's with the lines through? Odd, that..

 

[BlueB]

Yeah the lines... I'm blind enough as is, with your lines I get headache! 

Don't know about 90, man... and this is not at all to question your or anyone else's ability.  How do we distinguish between perceived/feeling and what's really happening? Unless someone took a high quality photo/video exactly perpendicular to the cross section of the board and at the snow level, we could never tell... 

[Corey]

I'm still trying to understand how my UPZ cuff buckles levered the board out of the snow on heelsides with just about 1/2" to 1" of overhang up high. That's a very high lean angle! 

I didn't believe it, but then noticed wear on my pant leg that corresponds to the buckles. This was on snow that was pretty hard - leas than 1/2" deep trenches. 

Now with zero overhang, when I lose the edge it was always my fault. That increases my confidence greatly! 

[lonbordin]

7 minutes ago, corey_dyck said:

I'm still trying to understand how my UPZ cuff buckles levered the board out of the snow on heelsides with just about 1/2" to 1" of overhang up high. 

I hear ya' Corey... when I wear my baggier pants I get the same issue so I've taken up wearing my speed suit whenever I go carving. 

[philw]

Quote

 

..., after all that, I believe that Snowboard J and I have arrived at a common point of reference. Our current difference may lie in how to best position softboot bindings on a board for best effect, or, perhaps in how highbacks work or can be tweaked to work better. IF I could post photos of my gear (without internet interruption, ahem) , you would then see where I've placed my set-up to best effect. I run a differential of probably +-9*, with the front more upright than the rear. I ride directional most of the time, with a 'splay' of 9-to-18 degrees difference on most any board, regardless of the front foot angle (and, often, if the board is 'skinny', the rear-foot boot-out potential governs the stance angles anyhow, as it's usually at the lesser angle, and has more width across the board). I use the 'Gilmour Offset' [still cracks me up, 'cause by '85, I already doing this!, And did it unintentionally on my '80 Flite 140, too!] of keeping my rear toe closer to the edge, and my front heel also closer to it's edge, unless I ride 'Duck', where I'll equal that out to remove 'switch' riding bias (highbacks will also get less differential in forward lean then, to help with Fakie riding).

I have to grin at the 90* of edge tilt ideas. It is possible, but not long enough to call it 'part of your turn'. One board I could do this on was my Rad-Air Obsession, BUT, on groomers, it only occurred at the Rear Foot. Let me explain; I could Vitelli this board in certain snow conditions, using plates (such as F-2/Rad-Airs or IBEX/Burtons) set well inboard of the edges (like more than a CM inside the sidewall) with moderate angles (being in the 50-40 range), but I'd have to 'let off' the nose a good bit. The way to achieve that was to 'flatten' the edge pressure f the front foot, effectively making the nose do a skidding carve (Vs 'bending' Carve that overhooks), while the tail was being set Hard and steep by my rear foot. I'd take my hands OFF the snow (per " Karol's-don't-Pat-the-Dog "), and see what else (hip, knee, boots) was dragging. If I wasn't at 90*, it was 88*, at least from the mid-to-tail! I did this once past Neville Burt's instructor clinic at Stratton, and his comment later was along the lines of 'Bloody nice Fall recovery', but it wasn't a "fall" at all..

The other places I did get well past 90 were not 'carves', but surf-like slashes into windlips, and twice in soft 1/2 Pipes. The Obsession did this better than even my Tankers, but I've 'gone over' on a quite a few boards, and left tracks that were clean, if perhaps 'bounced' off the base as compared to an edge-only carve.

So, I agree, great discussion, and I again thank you all for the insights!!

 

(Fixed that for you)

Past 90 That's sort of what I feel I'm trying to achieve when I slash a natural half-pipe, in powder, but then what you're doing is different mechanically - you're using gravity to help provide the force for the turn, which is the opposite of the usual scenario. When I was learning how to do it I'd make the obvious mistake though - throw myself back down the lip quicker than the lip was pushing me down, resulting in an inevitable crash.

 

[Duke]

Great, now you guys have thoroughly confused me (meant in a good way :) ).  I'm sure all of you get it, bu I am lost. :) (...what a surprise :) )

Finally....after so much effort....yesterday I was finally connecting multiple carve turns :)  Still have a long way to go....but....if this were a ski story i would finally be out of the "pizza french fries" stage so to say :)   My one and only board is a skinny skinny deck.  17 cm.   My goal there was trying to get a board that would be easy to learn on ....but also be a good ride when I actually caught on and was cruising.   And NOW I read here that none of you like skinny decks :( .....but the explanation gets me lost.  I do have overhang on my back foot.  Perhaps i am not getting low enough to cause a problem?   I have gone very low before....but when that low I always fail to come up out of it and I just come to a rest on my side :)   I am not booting out though....just failure to handle the situation.  This is only for heelside.  I haven't been able to get that low on toeside due to commitment issues :) and how much I like my face... though I have locked into some good carve turns on toeside too.

I had my bindings lined up with no overhang but just could not ride that way.  had to rotate the back out a bit.  Wasn't too worried about it though.  For one thing...buddy that introduced me to carving has some significant overhang and it doesn't seem to bother him at all.  first pic is of his stance.  

so, I take it that riding mine as such IS likely to get me into trouble here in the future??   The next two pics show my back foot.  Even thought the binding has overhang....when I look at the set up....it would take significant angle to boot out.  Waaay over....or so it seems to novice me.  ??  No racing in my future....WAY over.  All of you are going that far all the time??

 

[lonbordin]

5 minutes ago, Duke said:

.   And NOW I read here that none of you like skinny decks

Nope... that is not what was written.  Skinny decks work very well for high angles and carving on groomed piste as these fellows demonstrate in this video.

We are discussing the lack of truly wide boards to ride with lower angles by the major manufacturing houses and in turn what angles can be achieved on what width and all that entails (stack height, risers, board angulation, etc).

Your photos all show bindings that overhang too much and will boot out.  I have no idea how your buddy does not boot out all the time and yes you are probably experiencing boot out as well but don't know it.  The only other explanation is your boards angulation is extremely low at all times.

If you "just could not ride that way" you need to look for a board that works with the angles you can ride with... hence this post.  There's a board for everyone, just not a production board for everyone.

[AcousticBoarder]

So really, the industry board widths I am sure are decided by a number of factors. The first of which definitely has to do with the market. Most people buying snowboards are not trying to carve, or if they are they don't know to go wider so they purchase skinny boards. If they aren't trying to carve, they have no reason to care about boot out, and probably want a skinner board to reduce weight, and ease maneuverability on the ground and in the air. Thus, there is still more purchases for narrow boards. Rental places also are most likely to carry skinny boards too because they are much easier to learn on -  it is much easier to pressure the edges with boot overhang, and no first timer is going to have boot out, even if they are in a carving class which they probably wouldn't be anyway. But this means that those techs are most familiar with thin boards, and most likely to recommend them. Carving is still "new" to the softbooting world so it will take time for any of that to change. I've noticed too that the above is geographic as well. At one resort near me, all any boarder cares about are the park features. But at another, most boarders are actually carving decently. 

For hardbooting, hardboots are meant to be pressured laterally side to side,  though this is debatable and there are styles that use toe heel such as pureboarding. I think this is why many carving board manufacturers offer custom widths, whether or not they do full custom boards. Depending on they carving style, someone would need a different sized board. It is not necessarily cost prohibitive to do so because the demand is less; it probably gets more sales because buyers can specify what they actually want in a board which they are more likely to do as hardbooters generally are more specific with their equipment. But we also look historically at hardbooting, which includes narrow stances and narrow boards, and most looking at these boards as racing boards, which a narrow board is generally better suited for, along with other specifications. Whatever the case may be, we are a minority group, so much so that when someone is doing something a little different we all take notice (like Ryan) but we have to remember that is not the norm. 

I do not consider myself an expert so take this all as it is, just my experience in what I have read and seen over the last few years I have been active in this community. 

[WinterGold]

 A picture to illustrate the kind of tilting angles I am talking about ... this wouldn´t be possible with most production boards (definitely with no Burton board from this season ).

But that is where the fun is, no???

[philw]

1 hour ago, WinterGold said:

... this wouldn´t be possible with most production boards (definitely with no Burton board from this season ).

Burton gave up on Carving way back in the 1990s. I know you're talking about piste boards only, but many of their powder boards are piste capable and those would probably be wide enough. It will be interesting to see what Burton produce going forward - the carving kids thing looks a lot more interesting from my perspective than the playground ballet adventures of the last 20 years. I forgot to check out next year's Burton catalog for what they're doing carve-wise, but I'd be surprised if they stick with that spinny jibby old skool stuff ;-)

Many people in Europe go the other way though - those skinny Virus boards certainly carve. It's all about which style you want to use.

Apply money and you can get any board you like ...