Board width - what is going on???

[WinterGold]

The picture doesn´t show much. We would need a picture from above right over the frontside and/or the backside edge.

Yes, I am saying that 25cm boards can not be carved well, if your feet alone are 28cm long. How can they? Only if you limit yourself to mild tilting angles, you will have fun on such a board (setup).

Now it seems that a lot of snowboarders (most?) don´t care for the carved turn. That is the only explanation that such narrow boards exist (and so many of them!).

But this community here knows about carving and therefore I put out the question. Because after 30 years of snowboarding I still don´t get it and I was hoping for a good discussion.

As the industry now embraces carving and the importance of the turn itself, the landscape will have to change. But will it? I can´t even fathom why it took so long ...

 

[Rob Stevens]

What real penalties can you associate with wider boards? 

Lightning fast edge changes are now only fast?

Tortionally, it's just a construction question. 

You solve more issues by making the board as wide underfoot as your feet are long, than you create. 

Why leave this Knapton guy out of it? He's a good carver, likely made better via a custom board. 

Riser plates are one solution, but if your entire baseplate needs to be supported right out to the toe ramp (usually a secondary piece which can't just float in mid air without being rendered useless) most designs fall short. It certainly bears looking at your binding type before committing to a riser (of which Gecko is a good one, with full support... at least to the edge of the board, which may be too narrow, so the issue could persist)

Me? I'd prefer to go wider, than be lifted off the deck. 

 

Edited January 17, 2017 by Rob Stevens

[lonbordin]

1 hour ago, Rob Stevens said:

What real penalties can you associate with wider boards? 

None that I can ascertain through use... whatever width gets your toes and heels in proper position at an angle you want is the board width you should have... IMHO.

@WinterGold If we all ordered from the Custom makers maybe the mainstream builders would change their tune.

[Jack M]

My soft setup is a Winterstick SW 164 which is 26cm wide at the waist.  I ride it at 27/12 with US size 10.5 Burton Driver-X boots.  I boot out prohibitively if I try to lay it over.  So I don't.  I used to try to ride it at 36/27, but it would still boot out at maximum lean.  Those angles sucked for freeriding, so I gave up and decided if I really want to carve I'll go get one of my alpine rigs.  It's fine for medium-tilt carving and great for freeriding now.  I guess my next softie setup will have to be custom width (28cm??) to do it all.

[lonbordin]

There appears to be one production option for full camber 28+ waist width. (I think the 171 length has a waist of 28.7cm)

Elan El Grande

[TLN]

But this El Grande is far from carving machine. That's pretty standart board with average radius and etc.

I guess the whole idea of carving on softies is mediocre: I was riding my NS Chairman 171 with Flux DMCC and Driver X 11 boots: even at 45/30 I boot out sometimes. However I was able to do some nice carves next to lift. But it's nowhere as easy on slalom board or coiler.

And it's getting pretty hard to stop your self from going low once you know how to do that. So you either ride very steep angles (=sucks in freeride) or boot out on every low carve(sucks too).

[WinterGold]

32 minutes ago, TLN said:

So you either ride very steep angles (=sucks in freeride) or boot out on every low carve(sucks too).

And that is exactly the point where most of us arrive at! 

But my opinion is that it needn´t be! That is the point of this thread!

We are so used to avoiding boot out (especially on softboots) that we adopted our riding accordingly over the years. Which is pretty strange, no?

I am slowly getting used to real carving feeling on my SG Soul 59XT. I have to relearn that it is possible to ride without bootout on a softboot board - totally crazy!

My Korua Shapes are almost 27cm wide and my Jones Storm Chaser is 27.5cm. And I am size US9.

 

[Rob Stevens]

43 minutes ago, TLN said:

But this El Grande is far from carving machine. That's pretty standart board with average radius and etc.

I guess the whole idea of carving on softies is mediocre: I was riding my NS Chairman 171 with Flux DMCC and Driver X 11 boots: even at 45/30 I boot out sometimes. However I was able to do some nice carves next to lift. But it's nowhere as easy on slalom board or coiler.

And it's getting pretty hard to stop your self from going low once you know how to do that. So you either ride very steep angles (=sucks in freeride) or boot out on every low carve(sucks too).

No.

 

[xy9ine]

i'm waiting for mig to produce a big boy version of the diamondblade. say something like 171 x 29. call it the machete. 

[sic t 2]

Don't get it.  Just buy the board width that you want.  That's why they make WIDES .  

I used to always softboot on a 243.  Now I am up to a 266 for my little size 9's.  Not because of major bootout issues, but because the drag kills the 360 carve.  

[xy9ine]

14 minutes ago, WinterGold said:

I am slowly getting used to real carving feeling on my SG Soul 59XT.

not a bad looking board. huh.

http://www.sgsnowboards.com/snowboards/soul/

curious if any of the japanese builders in the kagayaking vids are making wides. certainly seems to be some functional shapes.  

[lonbordin]

5 minutes ago, sic t 2 said:

Don't get it.

This much is obvious... let me attempt to help.  WinterGold is wondering why production snowboards are so narrow compared to the average human foot and that production wide boards really aren't so wide compared to the average human foot.

[TLN]

40 minutes ago, WinterGold said:

And that is exactly the point where most of us arrive at! 

But my opinion is that it needn´t be! That is the point of this thread!

 

Well, I got Donek Inclune 180 with 28cm waist. Cannot tell that it was easier to carve on it.

Personally, I think it's all about bindings. I've been riding Flux DM - and not really impressed, for the carving. Again, I'm comparing that to modern alpine board. I have bought, but not yet tried Flow NX2-GT. Hardest thing for me is stop pushing myself into carving when on softies with low angles. 

May be I should give a try to short and super wide boards, huh?  Wide is the new long?

[Jack M]

52 minutes ago, sic t 2 said:

Don't get it.  Just buy the board width that you want.  That's why they make WIDES .  

I used to always softboot on a 243.  Now I am up to a 266 for my little size 9's.  Not because of major bootout issues, but because the drag kills the 360 carve.  

 

Donek and Coiler offer custom widths on nearly any model.  As for that video, I'll give you about 190 degrees on that carve... ;-P

1 hour ago, Rob Stevens said:

No.

 

Huh?

1 hour ago, TLN said:

But this El Grande is far from carving machine. That's pretty standart board with average radius and etc.

I guess the whole idea of carving on softies is mediocre: I was riding my NS Chairman 171 with Flux DMCC and Driver X 11 boots: even at 45/30 I boot out sometimes. However I was able to do some nice carves next to lift. But it's nowhere as easy on slalom board or coiler.

And it's getting pretty hard to stop your self from going low once you know how to do that. So you either ride very steep angles (=sucks in freeride) or boot out on every low carve(sucks too).

I agree that people with biggish feet (10.5 is not huge, wth!) who want to carve are disregarded by most of the industry.  However "the whole idea of carving on softies" is not mediocre, if your foot fits on the board.  I tried @jburrill's carbon F2 Eliminator 166 "wide" (26cm waist, 12m radius) on Monday.  It carved great as long as I didn't lay it over.  JB squeezes into a 9.5 boot and can rail carves like a fiend. I'm digging the new "carving" fad in the softboot world these days.

Oh and by the way, contrary to popular misconception, risers only rob you of leverage.

[Rob Stevens]

4 minutes ago, Jack Michaud said:

 

Huh?

 

What?

 

[BlueB]

53 minutes ago, xy9ine said:

i'm waiting for mig to produce a big boy version of the diamondblade. say something like 171 x 29. call it the machete. 

I'm waiting for Mig to make a 23 wide version of what he's already got ;) 

[BlueB]

11 minutes ago, Jack Michaud said:

Donek and Coiler offer custom widths on nearly any model.  As for that video, I'll give you about 190 degrees on that carve... ;-P

Huh?

I agree that people with biggish feet (10.5 is not huge, wth!) who want to carve are disregarded by most of the industry.  However "the whole idea of carving on softies" is not mediocre, if your foot fits on the board.  I tried @jburrill's carbon F2 Eliminator 166 "wide" (26cm waist, 12m radius) on Monday.  It carved great as long as I didn't lay it over.  JB squeezes into a 9.5 boot and can rail carves like a fiend. I'm digging the new "carving" fad in the softboot world these days.

Oh and by the way, contrary to popular misconception, risers only rob you of leverage.

I'm not a big fan of the risers either... Even with my hard boots I now seek lower profile bindings..  

[Corey]

13 minutes ago, Rob Stevens said:

What?

Exactly!  

[TLN]

59 minutes ago, Jack Michaud said:

I agree that people with biggish feet (10.5 is not huge, wth!) who want to carve are disregarded by most of the industry.  However "the whole idea of carving on softies" is not mediocre, if your foot fits on the board.  I tried @jburrill's carbon F2 Eliminator 166 "wide" (26cm waist, 12m radius) on Monday.  It carved great as long as I didn't lay it over.  JB squeezes into a 9.5 boot and can rail carves like a fiend. I'm digging the new "carving" fad in the softboot world these days.

Oh and by the way, contrary to popular misconception, risers only rob you of leverage.

I agree. I mean that "classic" bindings doesn't work very well for angles like 45/30. It's not about how good your binding fit on the board, it's about bindigs-boot combo as well. This is where alpine shines.

I got nice boards, and all of them push me toward laid-down turn, and this is where it fails. I can imagine someone with smaller boot can carve on that easily, but with US11 I can not. When I'm not trying to lay down I get perfect carves pretty easily. You can see where boot touches the snow. It works on flat area in front of public, but fails every second time on the hill. And that's with 45/30 with US11 on 25.6 waist.

I will disagree on risers: that helps with boot drag and makes wide boards feel narrow. Make wide boards feel narrow again ;)

[lordmetroland]

1 hour ago, sic t 2 said:

Don't get it.  Just buy the board width that you want.  That's why they make WIDES .  

WIDE? For the mainstream marketers/manufacturers it's, what, an extra 1.3cm? That's not wide, it's just not-as-skinny-as-normal. That's like an airline adding an extra row of seats and crowing about "expanded capacity." Then some companies insult us yetis further by not offering their max lengths in WIDE format (see: Jones Flagship or Aviator, Never Summer Chairman). With big feet, you either compromise or go custom. If you're thinking I secretly hate all you f****s with little feet, you're right.

[Apex Insider]

To add to lordmetroland's point, the problem with having to go wide is that your choices are limited unless you go custom. You can only choose from the Wide part of the menu. It's like being a vegetarian at a steak house. 

[WinterGold]

16 hours ago, Apex Insider said:

To add to lordmetroland's point, the problem with having to go wide is that your choices are limited unless you go custom. You can only choose from the Wide part of the menu. It's like being a vegetarian at a steak house. 

Also the reason for this thread! Why is that so? For whom are the manufactures producing???

[philw]

Me, I guess.

But those extreme carver chappies do all that diving for the snow business, which presumably makes any overhang at all a bad idea, yet their boards are quite narrow:

http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2788&start=15

I can't see there what angles they use, but perhaps they're all perfectly sized people with reasonable feet like me ;-)

[JRAZZ]

25 minutes ago, WinterGold said:

For whom are the manufactures producing???

[Apex Insider]

30 minutes ago, WinterGold said:

Also the reason for this thread! Why is that so? For whom are the manufactures producing???

For alpine boards, the racers drive the market and they all want narrow. Most are using plates of some sort so they don't worry too much about boot out. And if boot out is still a problem, then the board builder will tell you to make your binding angles steeper. If you don't like it, they tell you to buy custom.

Now, there are wider alpine boards and that's the all-mountain segment and the extreme carving boards.

It's a much bigger problem with soft boot boards. The trend is to ride shallow angles with 0 to -15 degrees on the back foot. The average adult, American male has a size 10.5 foot or 27cm. That's already 2 cm longer than the average board width. Add the bulk of the boot and you're talking 2-3 cm of overhang at 0 degrees (on both the toe and the heel). I realize the snowboard boot sole is beveled to help prevent drag but still, it's a big problem if you start to carve even moderately hard.

I have no idea who they are manufacturing for. I think that the vast majority of snowboarders are not performance oriented. They just slide and skid around, hit a few jumps, grind a couple of rails and call it a day as long as they have a couple of video clips they can post on Instagram. If they have boot drag, they don't even notice or don't care.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Apex Insider