Ancient Equipment in Alpine Snowboarding...

[Jack M]

1 hour ago, Corey said:

That's a really good idea! Maybe that line is drawn at the 06 Prior that Jack described above. 

DONE

[softbootsurfer]

The Butcher and some other Pure Carvers from the Ol Days, rides some very Old Sticks, as well as anybody I have seen on the latest equipment...are they holding the Sport Back? When people with new equipment can't or don't do what they do, on very old equipment, that argument becomes Mute Eh? At least to me...just the progression of all the Burton sticks over the last 30 something years is quite amazing to me, on how much easier it is to work the equipment, that is the reason I get a new stick every year and I suppose the reason they keep trying to advance what the sticks can do...

 

 

[JohnE]

I believe that there have been advances in equipment technology. However, I don't think each incremental improvement is as life changing as some believe. For example - this year's darling board isn't that much different than last year's.  

[Jack M]

1 hour ago, softbootsurfer said:

The Butcher and some other Pure Carvers from the Ol Days, rides some very Old Sticks, as well as anybody I have seen on the latest equipment...are they holding the Sport Back? 

http://forums.alpinesnowboarder.com/topic/48802-ancient-equipment-in-alpine-snowboarding/?do=findComment&comment=495325

 

[pow4ever]

MADD is ancient board by that standard.  It's still being covet.

As John E mentioned:  We are in a phase of evolutionary and not revolutionary for many thing:  car, snowboard, computer, phone and etc.

A smart phone made 6 years is still pretty good.
Metal/decamber/new shape are market disruptor/revolutionary.  Once the new tech become democratize we will be hitting diminishing return on chasing the "minor-ish" refinement year over year. 
Don't get me wrong; incremental change does add up over time.  it's nice to have but not must have.

Many of us are in the super privilege place to be able to afford to experimenting:  in both money/time context.

I firmly believe the ride are in the rider and not equipments as Bob mentioned.  Forever i will be a 2 cents rider(a nickel now with inflation) with top shelf gear but I am lucky/privilege to have discretionary budget for the thing I am passionated about.  Newer equipment does make progression/learning easier.  If you already rip; then it doesn't matter as much.

As some on mentioned in the past:
That barrier/high cost of entry(gears) is holding the sport back 
The lack of regimented training program is holding the sport back

The Jörg/Pure Boarding group are actively address those barriers.
I find it hard to argue that those gal/guy rips on what many consider old design.

On the other hand all thing being equal:
talent + hardwork + right equipment is going to win over talent + hardwork + subpar equipment

Once we can clearly define the problem domain (what is our sports is quite ambiguous); then we can have a proper conversation.

We are isle of misfit toy 

Most us are here to have fun and not compete/race.
Nor everyone want to push their limit day in day out. 
Some of us are gear snob/gear hoarder
as the season getting closer to opening; i do think tension runs high lol...
 

Edited November 15, 2019 by pow4ever
pure boarding(carve) and spelling

[David Kirk]

WAY back in the day I was supported by Rossignol and they gave me handbuilt race room boards. They were the same boards used by their WC team and guys like Jeremy Jones. They were long and stiff and silly fast. I rode those boards for a very long time and loved them. I still have two.

A few years back I skeptically bought a Kessler GS board wanting to see what all the fuss was about.....I mean I'd been riding WC boards so how much better can these new fangled boards be? I got a stock Kessler 185 and it took a few days out to really learn it but in very short order is was wonderful. Intuitive, huge edge hold, adjustable line, damp, quiet......etc. I loved it.

After riding the Kessler I got on my favorite old Rossi 181 and it was a serious eye opener. It was twitchy, edgy, busy, lacked edge hold, and had only one line it wanted to take and I was along for the ride. It was as good as it got 20 years ago but now it was pretty bad.

Times change, tech changes, riding technique changes to match the new gear.....and the level keeps going up. Can I jump on the old Rossi and carve it hard? Yep. But every turn is real work and it's all too easy to go over its limit. This is not the case with the Kessler.

Since then I bought one custom Kessler 168 slalom and loved it so much that I bought a second custom 180 GS that I hope to have on the snow in less than a month from now. The Rossi boards are in the basement as a reminder of times past.

dave

[Rusty Edges]

Fully agree on the MADD's.  Two different manufactures make their own version of the "legendary 159".  That is saying something...

Granted newer equipment is more refined and somewhat easier to ride in less than perfect conditions.  However, I still regularly ride boards that were made in the last century.  When I am on my game the old Hot Blasts, circa 1997, are a pleasure to ride.  

Would I suggest an old board for learning?  No way.  But if you already have the technique and muscle memory, older (antique?) boards are a pleasure to ride.

Your mileage may vary...

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Rusty Edges
speilling

[ibrussell]

Last year I had an intermediate boarder want to try carving. I got him set up with boots 2018 174 Coiler NFCE TD3 bindings that was right for his weight and went out on a hard green/easy blue run with hero snow.  He would start his turn lock the edge and take off downhill. First four runs almost hit three people and almost two trees.  When in switched to a 2002 Burton 173 FP Burton race bindings  in two runs he was making C and J turns. After another two half days on the Burton got him back on the Coiler and he could make some C/J turns.  You don't put everyone in a formula one car to start learning to drive.

[lowrider]

Maybe if we made benches out of old boards and left them dotted over different resorts the younger generation would be exposed to  something they will probably not see anywhere in their new world. Recently visited the largest  ski & snowboard show with my mission to educate some of the largest resort personnel about Alpine borading and Skwal . My wife just groans and walks on but i'm optimistic. A person from Big Sky  actually loaded the Alpinesnowboarder.com link ! She did not however know where Turner Mt is but was interested in the event . 

[ursle]

The Madd157 has a tiny sweet spot and can't be ridden in a straight line, it will stop, the tail drags. (old school design)

The MK makes as tight of turns and can rip in a straight line and it's sweet spot is the whole board, err, concerning hard snow and ice, pow and soft snow, who cares?

I think  boards prior to Kessler's decambering are old and in the way, boards built afterwards (decambering) are all current, thank god for plates.

 

 

 

 

[Jack M]

1 hour ago, ibrussell said:

Last year I had an intermediate boarder want to try carving. I got him set up with boots 2018 174 Coiler NFCE TD3 bindings that was right for his weight and went out on a hard green/easy blue run with hero snow.  He would start his turn lock the edge and take off downhill. First four runs almost hit three people and almost two trees.  When in switched to a 2002 Burton 173 FP Burton race bindings  in two runs he was making C and J turns. After another two half days on the Burton got him back on the Coiler and he could make some C/J turns.  You don't put everyone in a formula one car to start learning to drive.

Too many variables to draw a conclusion about the board.  Maybe it was the bindings.  Maybe the old FP was really soft.  Maybe he had a different attitude after the first experience.  Who knows.

I would say the original Madd 158 is an outlier, literally made from unobtanium.  An "exception that proves the rule".

[pow4ever]

Alpine equipments to me consist of:

board
Binding
Boots . <-- Phil W put it very nicely.  20+ year old technology is just painful.

Our main focus seems to be on board.

Agree MADD is an outlier(since i first mentioned it; it's the contrarian in me talking lol). 

It's like classic car.  It's nice but they don't make them anymore.
The narrow sweet spot is a beautiful way to put it.  
The so call capturing lighting in the bottle is more art than exact science.
certain model (car/motorcycle/aircraft/mechanical keyboard/ enter noun here) are more coveted not because it's easy to handle but it's the reward that it give to the user when we master it that elevated its status.

History/where we come from is important; we can't dwell in the past but we shouldn't ignore it. 
That's just this humble idiot's onions.

Does the thought ever occur to anyone else?  i save my penny, eat right, exercise.  Get the best equipment i can afford.  wake up at ungodly hour to drive through treacherous road to get the resort paying $$$ for food $$$$ for lift pass +  I try and try and try and still suck....  throwing in the towel feel like the logical decision.

i am sure we all have that one board in our quiver: 
Call it grounding rod.  When the day just isn't going well for whatever reason
The board that is familiar/nostalgia/je ne sais quoi that will kiss the "boo boo" away.

if it keep us coming back; then it's not holding the sport back per se.
it doesn't help us moving it forward neither...

[ibrussell]

Well I guest the next time I'm riding a board older than 2008 and someone says how can I try that? I'm suppose to say this is old you wouldn't have fun on this you need to buy newer stuff, oh and I can't give you tips on how because I'm not a certified instructor.

[softbootsurfer]

5 hours ago, Jack M said:

http://forums.alpinesnowboarder.com/topic/48802-ancient-equipment-in-alpine-snowboarding/?do=findComment&comment=495325

 

Not really Jack,

Larry, Joe, Corey, Wayne and Sparky and others, they never held the sport back, in fact they are all very emulated by many still today on their modern sticks...Good Carving is Good Carving Eh? and they know how to Carve !! the only thing holding Carving back is how simple it is and people can't handle simple, they eventually need to move on right? I have seen so many through the years learn, get proficient and then move on, really never reaching a zenith of any kind...

[SunSurfer]

8 hours ago, softbootsurfer said:

..... that is the reason I get a new stick every year......

Nah. You just wear your poor boards out! 100+ days a year riding. (Jealous!!!!!!)

[SunSurfer]

My Riot Supercarve 178(? length, take a bow @Corran) pimped with extra inserts and a UPM plate still gets ridden alongside a Coiler Nirvana Energy T+ 174 and a Kessler KST 162 slalom board. It's still a lively, responsive, rewarding ride.

[Aracan]

18 hours ago, pow4ever said:

The Joerg/Pure Carving group are actively address those barriers.

I think you mixed up Pure Carve (Not Jörg) and Pure Boarding (Jörg) there. IIRC, Pure Carve was the company that made the surf-inspired Maverick boards, and I believe someone named Cliff Ahumada was involved.

[Jack M]

19 hours ago, softbootsurfer said:

Not really Jack,

Larry, Joe, Corey, Wayne and Sparky and others, they never held the sport back, in fact they are all very emulated by many still today on their modern sticks...Good Carving is Good Carving Eh? and they know how to Carve !! the only thing holding Carving back is how simple it is and people can't handle simple, they eventually need to move on right? I have seen so many through the years learn, get proficient and then move on, really never reaching a zenith of any kind...

I'm confused, I can't tell if you're saying these people are riding modern equipment now or not.  I'm just saying anyone who is somewhat serious about the sport but is refusing to buy something modern even though they could, is at the very least denying business to a current manufacturer.  That's inarguable.  They may also be influencing others, whether they mean to or not.

[lowrider]

2 hours ago, Jack M said:

  They may also be influencing others, whether they mean to or not.

Easy for you to say as an internet " influencer " The only influence i project is in the reaction of the female spouse of others that tell their husbands they can't try my Skwal.

[pow4ever]

8 hours ago, Aracan said:

I think you mixed up Pure Carve (Not Jörg) and Pure Boarding (Jörg) there. IIRC, Pure Carve was the company that made the surf-inspired Maverick boards, and I believe someone named Cliff Ahumada was involved.

Indeed.  I stand corrected.

Pure Carve:  Cliff
Pure Boarding: Jörg
I did meet both at a pure boarding Apres Ski

Both "outfits" are awesome.  I did spent much more time with the Pure Boarding crew.
Pure Boarding have a far more formal organization
Pure Carve are local toe Aspen and go with the flow vibe

I understand 100% what Jack is saying from a pure economic perspective.
It's part but not the whole picture. 
Toyota still do well by make long lasting economic car.  Meaning not everyone need to buy a new car every year for Toyota to continue on R&D.  Grossly oversimplification as the economic of scale and parts to make it sustainable.
Anyway we might be seeing history in the making:  Alpine/Carving seems to be more popular than ever.

IMHO:
Having a positive/welcome attitude to people who are curious/beginner will propel our beloved sports forward.
Equipment elitism/snobbery will do the opposite.  

[b0ardski]

not all ancient gear is bad, that '92 Grocer with '96 stepins kicked Montucky powder ass

alpine boards have seen a lot more evolution than boots and bindings this century

[philw]

I'm reminded of a similar argument in photography forums, although not amongst actual photographers, at least those I know. The argument is that good photographers are good even if using old equipment, therefore you don't need good equipment. This is a confusion which is easily recognised as you'll almost never find a good photographer using anything but the best gear money can buy. It's not sufficient, but it's quite nearly necessary: if you care about image quality, then you want the best you can get.

I don't think old gear is "holding the sport back", except to the extent that some people only have access to old gear, which is hardly an attractive proposition to most people, unlike new shiny gear, which is.


 

[bumpyride]

You can't possibly be any good or have any fun on old equipment.  Once again I'm reminded that I'm not having any fun.

 

[JRAZZ]

I think if you're good you're good. Equipment matters less.

 

Buuuuuut... Plastic does age. The plastic in boots gets old and brittle. I always cringe seeing boots older than 10 years being sold. Would they work? probably. Are they safe? Ummmm....

 

The same should hold true for the epoxy on boards but it seems they are a bit more skuukum. The fiberglass doesn't age so boards seem to last really long (unless you ride on the rocks)

[lordmetroland]

11 hours ago, philw said:

I don't think old gear is "holding the sport back"

Agreed; what's holding the sport back might just be this thread...