Jack M Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 Welcome @JDS. He’s talking about modern used gear that would be worth buying. Coming from your setup, you’ll be blown away by a good recent used rig. You don’t need new. Definitely go to MCC if you can. Also, check out the articles on our home page, alpinesnowboarder.com. Good luck! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davekempmeister Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 I am about to ride a Sims Burner for the first time. 197 I am pretty excited about it, actually. I like the new stuff too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeW Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 (edited) Well, I still have my Madd 158... from 2004. I have yet to meet another alpine board of equivalent caliber. However, the market niche for alpine snowboarding is quite narrow, regardless. Hell, Pete Saari told me himself when I bugged him if we could bring the Innercourse alpine back at Mervin MFG. It's just not financial sustainable in his perspective. So it's rather pointless to debate on whether if it holds the sport back or not. If I -do- find a board that can sustain my riding, then yes I would purchase a new board. It is unfortunate that I don't do much alpine snowboarding these days (I last touched my alpine, which is Madd, back in 2006) for I have gone on to skiing and ski carving on my lib tech skis. Edited January 18, 2020 by LeeW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shred Gruumer Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 Wow... The sales pitch https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F264602447963 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 7 hours ago, Shred Gruumer said: Wow... The sales pitch https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F264602447963 This asshole tried to pull this shit on AST and was quickly put in his place. New rule coming in our classifieds, no misrepresenting your items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west carven Posted January 18, 2020 Report Share Posted January 18, 2020 howdy what did I tell you about ebay links... this is why we should keep ebay links off the classifieds and over priced stuff on this fourm should be called out too... no names, but there is a few... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shred Gruumer Posted January 19, 2020 Report Share Posted January 19, 2020 22 hours ago, west carven said: howdy what did I tell you about ebay links... this is why we should keep ebay links off the classifieds and over priced stuff on this fourm should be called out too... no names, but there is a few... Be quite!! Go back to your corner... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trailertrash Posted January 20, 2020 Author Report Share Posted January 20, 2020 On 1/17/2020 at 7:04 PM, JDS said: doesn’t stop me from laying it out in the turns and getting down like four flat tires! Those words don't match that picture. On 1/18/2020 at 4:56 AM, LeeW said: Well, I still have my Madd 158... from 2004. I have yet to meet another alpine board of equivalent caliber. It is unfortunate that I don't do much alpine snowboarding these days (I last touched my alpine, which is Madd, back in 2006) for I have gone on to skiing and ski carving on my lib tech skis. This is the attitude I don't understand. "Well, when I was paying attention this board was great! I haven't paid attention for a while but I still think this board is great!" Wtf!? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffV Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 This was on the rack at Wachusett last night. 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimW Posted January 21, 2020 Report Share Posted January 21, 2020 (edited) 20 hours ago, GeoffV said: This was on the rack at Wachusett last night. Cool, my first snowboard! (well, 2nd, first was a horrible homemade board) It was a cheap low quality board, I bought it used from a rental shop. It seemed to be one uniform type of plastic when drilling holes in it for mounting bindings. But actually the ride was quite OK, it had a nice sidecut, which a lot of boards did not have yet. 1987 I think 1988. Edited January 22, 2020 by TimW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeW Posted January 27, 2020 Report Share Posted January 27, 2020 (edited) On 1/20/2020 at 2:30 PM, trailertrash said: Those words don't match that picture. This is the attitude I don't understand. "Well, when I was paying attention this board was great! I haven't paid attention for a while but I still think this board is great!" Wtf!? Man, was that a d--k move you just pulled? LIttle do you know, I broke my fibula from alpine snowboard racing/training so it's not exactly the same as it was. Hence my retirement. So, with that said, don't be a prick when there's two sides to the story. EDIT: Alright, I get your gist for pulling that d--ck move so I'll not post my comment anymore to any of your post. Good day to you. Edited January 27, 2020 by LeeW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 (edited) interesting topic ! My experience with old gear is biased by our Swoard story and the first model that is the extremecarver. The first designs with that width were output by Jacques by hand in 97-98, using his experience from the Wild Duck Knifer he designed for 3-4 seasons. He fined tuned during 3 seasons the shape and construction of the board in order to reach the maximum performance for the given task it was made for. In 2002 came the industrialization of those prototypes in order to be able to replicate what was hand made previously and it was the first generation ECarver that was still non refined ( no tip/tail protection-insert, no full edge wrap). After many generations derivating from this concept and after almost twenty years of production ( what other model is there that is 20+?) : What has changed and differs between the first generation and the last ?: not much in term of shape or performance. BUT what has changed incredibly is the abilty to reach that performance with much forgiveness, comfort and easyness. What required 20 years ago Jacques and Patrice's riding level will now take any rider with good EC understanding the ability to do the same turns and performance... Of course one may say it is because training and practice helped experience, but the evolution of the gear itself makes it easier due to fine refinements in the shape, in the construction making grip easier, dampening better etc.. Basically if you put Patrice on the 2001 Gen1 today, he will do the same turns, but will need more concentration and good conditions compare to his today's board which allows him or other riders to perform on artificial snow as well as bumpy snows etc. Evolution in boards I think provide mostly tolerance, versatility and forgiveness... its however difficult to quantify in certain cases and won't be the case with all boards. Edited January 30, 2020 by nils 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Señor Chuggs Posted January 30, 2020 Report Share Posted January 30, 2020 https://photos.google.com/album/AF1QipO9PlOU2wqWc0qH0POtxKqA-_0mOWIq8kD5A7-f I hope I don't pick up too much carving skills out there! I want to stay a beginner forever and just play with my old toys! If I carve too good, I might become an internet elitist with some lofty obligation to "the sport" . Sounds lame as hell TBH . I better not make too much money either, or else the carving gurus might have ideas on how I should spend it! In all seriousness, I think the carving world is good at "progressing the sport", in how it produces awesome (yet prohibitively expensive) race tech developments that eventually trickle their way into the freecarve market. This is leaps and bounds better than the softboot world, (if I may make this crude distinction) pushing weird serrated sidecut tech and the like that doesn't do much to help most of the people riding that stuff. How do we get carving equipment into rental shops on the hill? create more incentive for groomed slope rather than throwing all the resources into the terrain parks. I don't think this stuff is ultra-specialized by necessity. Their CAN be a world with accessible entry level carving equipment. Why there isn't is I think the more pertinent question. As far as what's holding ME back on new equipment, its rental/demo opportunity vs days on the hill vs money. I know the best use of my money at this stage would be on plane tickets to go out west to go to a carving event and get some instruction and opportunities to try modern gear. Don't have that right now. Saving my time and PTO days for a season where that might be possible. I might even sell my car before I go too so I have some money ready to buy new gear after I demo some stuff. But I'm not under any delusion that buying new toys will "progress the sport". It will progress MY sport. And for that matter, I could probably progress MY sport for a lot less money and effort by switching to softboots, consulting local sources to kit myself out right on modern gear, and getting more local instruction. I just have rented crumby softboot stuff before, and I like the feel of crumby hardboots better. I have no idea what quality feels like in either realm, lol. For everyone else, they'll see me on the hill, maybe ask about it, maybe check out Alpinesnowboarder.com and get hooked, but chances are slim. Most folks will continue get stuck in all the barriers to entry that keep snowboard carving the exclusive club that it is, despite perhaps showing some interest. THAT is holding back the sport. And please don't take this the wrong way, I LOVE these forums and Its super rad how instructors offer all this guidance over the internet and get so much reach. I'm just attempting to making the right critiques.. the critiques that may spark progression of the sport in a more inclusive direction, which I've always assumed to be one of the missions of this community. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 Snowboarding can be described as creating/maintaining a state of dynamic equilibrium. Akin to walking. Learning to walk is organic, involves mistakes, bumps and bruises. Learn to walk, and you can go places, free yourself, and maybe impress a few people. Learning to ride alpine is organic, involves mistakes, bumps, and bruises. Learn to ride alpine, and you can go places, free yourself, and maybe impress a few people. A significant difference, is that when you learn to walk, it doesn’t matter who you impress, because your peer group is enormous, and since everyone is doing it, nobody really cares what you have on or under your feet. Except for the fetishists. Alpine snowboarding is a reasonably small niche, and within that niche it’s a challenge to both belong, and at the same time, stand out. The easiest way to resolve that challenge is to buy new gear. Preferably gear that’s hard to come by. While that advances the personal cause, that’s not advancing the sport. As Nils points out, newer boards can allow a rider to achieve a particular result with less effort; less skill. While that can can certainly facilitate enjoyment and encourage/sustain participation, that’s not ‘advancing’ the sport either. In fact, if one significantly reduces the skill required for a particular activity, that activity will no longer be challenging, will lose it’s allure, and in the process, participation and vitality. Advancing a sport requires pushing the limits of what is currently possible in terms of athletic movement within set boundaries. Which sounds a lot like riding on ‘ancient’ gear: An athlete pushing their limits against assumed limitations. For the most part, making the argument that newer gear is better for the sport than older gear is a lot like saying if you want to help a toddler walk better, buy them a new floor, and make sure they can’t tip over. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west carven Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 howdy Beckmann AG well said! ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nils Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 Yes Beckmann, but I forgot to mention that the idea is that the new gear making things easier to reach given point allows also for creating new devs into the unkown: riding level, discipline etc....and either the rider or the gear will evolve to be able to reach that new zone that was not possible to see before...Jacque's idea was developped because he wanted to reach a domain that the available gear showed him could be reached.. I see gear dev as stairs where each steps are solidground to further exploration. What I regret in today's evolution of the sport that is driven by money and marketing is that we are presented very specialized gear that basically kill the versatility that took years to create...what is the point on creating a new old version of the first wintersticks when we have developped much better performing boards that are able to cope with much more variety of terrain/ riding speeds etc and still be better in that field that the specialized gear of the time. This is what I feel when I see all the Korua's and midget wide shapes with fancy cuts: do they perform better than my own powderboard: no... are they able to cope with as much terrain than mine: no.... I thought the quest of the perfect gear would be to have the board with the biggest field of use aka universality : marketing proves otherwise in many fields because it needs niches to justify its presence...opposing the trend of sustainable developpement.. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 And all along i thought i was doing it because it put a smile on my face and i got to tinker with something different than my every day stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.E Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 My only problem with old gear is that it's towards the end of it's life. I've had a few old decks were they started to delam, and race plates that have seen the end of their plastic fatigue span. So my old (Old) stuff is out, and the less old stuff is now my old stuff, with the new stuff being my future old stuff. As long as it's safe, have fun out there. A buddy buys old skis he couldn't afford to race in HS so he can relive the glory days, but that doesn't stop him from ripping on new race gear. Keeps him happy, which is good enough for me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Señor Chuggs Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 Gear essential-ism vs. technique essential-ism. Both of these tendencies obfuscate the dialectical materialist theory of snowsport progression. Gear developments and adjustments inform the riding technique, and that riding technique in turn informs gear developments. Both gear and technique are just modalities of unfolding theory and practice. Technique: I watch the Youtube, read the technique articles, discussions, theories --> I ride a few lines, adjust technique, develop an understanding of the theory by practice, and uncover new truths --> go back to the forums, find some of those new truths in subsequent reads, journal my own progress to rationalize the empirical truths uncovered in practice, fit them into a framework...a framework which is dismantled and rebuilt again as the cycle repeats itself. Gear: I read the setup guides and stance guides, dial it in on my gear --> ride a few lines, interpret the consequence of my input on the ride, make minor adjustments if needed, develop an understanding of the theory by practice, and uncover new truths --> (re)Read more set up guides, new truths in mind, make invasive mods to current gear or try new gear to achieve different stance and setup in accordance with working theory --> ride more lines, develop more understanding, make more adjustments. --> ride more lines. Gear development is recursive. Out of the box, the newer gear CONTAINS more knowledge than the older gear. New knowledge from all the riders and builders that contributed to its form. but its form is not static, nor is it deterministic. Knowledge is IMPARTED onto your gear as it changes form through mods, adjustments, and development. Just as knowledge is imparted onto the rider as technique is refined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumpyride Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 13 hours ago, Beckmann AG said: Snowboarding can be described as creating/maintaining a state of dynamic equilibrium. Akin to walking. Learning to walk is organic, involves mistakes, bumps and bruises. Learn to walk, and you can go places, free yourself, and maybe impress a few people. Learning to ride alpine is organic, involves mistakes, bumps, and bruises. Learn to ride alpine, and you can go places, free yourself, and maybe impress a few people. A significant difference, is that when you learn to walk, it doesn’t matter who you impress, because your peer group is enormous, and since everyone is doing it, nobody really cares what you have on or under your feet. Except for the fetishists. Alpine snowboarding is a reasonably small niche, and within that niche it’s a challenge to both belong, and at the same time, stand out. The easiest way to resolve that challenge is to buy new gear. Preferably gear that’s hard to come by. While that advances the personal cause, that’s not advancing the sport. As Nils points out, newer boards can allow a rider to achieve a particular result with less effort; less skill. While that can can certainly facilitate enjoyment and encourage/sustain participation, that’s not ‘advancing’ the sport either. In fact, if one significantly reduces the skill required for a particular activity, that activity will no longer be challenging, will lose it’s allure, and in the process, participation and vitality. Advancing a sport requires pushing the limits of what is currently possible in terms of athletic movement within set boundaries. Which sounds a lot like riding on ‘ancient’ gear: An athlete pushing their limits against assumed limitations. For the most part, making the argument that newer gear is better for the sport than older gear is a lot like saying if you want to help a toddler walk better, buy them a new floor, and make sure they can’t tip over. I can only surmise why some sports have specified limits on what equipment the contestants are able to use. Like weight minimums on road bicycles: 14.99 pounds Today, bikes weigh in at just under 15 pounds—but not any lower, since the UCI's minimum bike weight is 6.8kg, which translates to 14.99 pounds.May 6, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pow4ever Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 Great conversation/view points. Individual goal is the key here. We all got calculator; does it make arithmetic obsolete? goal/context matter. If goal is to balance a check book; i can argue yes. Once the complexity is abstracted; the outcome become "interesting". Nothing wrong with it/part of democratized alpine gear to the mass. Short circuit ramp up time is good. However at what trade off? Make Alpine more user friendly for the average user. So industrial can leverage pool of money from the mass into R&D that benefit the elite? Race tech eventually trickle down. Is that the goal? old/new are also relative: Metal -> variable SC New gear make it easy but to a certain degree. It eventually hit diminishing return. The gears we have are so good now: that unless you race; the year to year micro optimization probably isn't noticeable by me(mere mortal). Going back to old gear make us appreciated new gear and it show us where the weakness are in our technique. If you can drive a stick; most likely you can drive an automatic but not the reverse. Sometime it's not necessary unless you want to. I do think it make you a better driver just because of that extra awareness. Driving in stop/go does suck... knowing the trade off/goal. It suppose to be fun right Maximize enjoyment on the mountain is my goal; new gear does that better If my goal is work on a particular deficiency so it will increase my overall fun on the slope and in order to do that i need to train on an old gear; then it's worth it as it progressing toward my overall goal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgCarve Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) My experience is that new equipment sometimes even makes you wonder how board even turns (metal, VSC, different flex patters, sophisticated board profile, etc). And sometimes this actually can degrade your technique. Older boards usually respond to your inputs in very predictable manner without any surprises from advanced new tech. I almost feel that if you want to perfect your technique, you have to ride from time to time older boards. I do ride my Burton Alp quite often... Edited January 31, 2020 by dgCarve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumpyride Posted January 31, 2020 Report Share Posted January 31, 2020 I don't want something new when I'm happy with what I have. Continuing upgrading is just a source for aggravation, at least for me. When I've found something that works and works well, be it sporting equipment, tools, audio, cars, bikes, I'll stick with it. If there was an unquenchable desire to find the "Perfect" tool, it will never end and the journey will not be the reward. Of course your journey will be yours, and who gives a crap about mine? So have fun, whatever you do. Just by happenstance, look what just popped up about unfair advantage: https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/51324991 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonbordin Posted February 1, 2020 Report Share Posted February 1, 2020 7 hours ago, bumpyride said: I can only surmise why some sports have specified limits on what equipment the contestants are able to use. Typically it's to prevent an arms race and the best supported participant winning rather than the best participant winning. Now you know. Luckily we are in a developmental fleet and can run what we brung... Rather than say Snowboardcross which says style must come before performance. Ride what you want is fine by me... But don't come to these threads and argue your old stuff rides as well as the latest technology because that's rediculous and really shows you haven't spent much time on the new stuff. BTW- Not everyone can afford new stuff, I get it!, and you're having a great time on your old stuff, super cool! I'm all about running what ya' brung' and having a great time. Mahalo. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bumpyride Posted February 1, 2020 Report Share Posted February 1, 2020 23 minutes ago, lonbordin said: Typically it's to prevent an arms race and the best supported participant winning rather than the best participant winning. Now you know. Luckily we are in a developmental fleet and can run what we brung... Rather than say Snowboardcross which says style must come before performance. Ride what you want is fine by me... But don't come to these threads and argue your old stuff rides as well as the latest technology because that's rediculous and really shows you haven't spent much time on the new stuff. BTW- Not everyone can afford new stuff, I get it!, and you're having a great time on your old stuff, super cool! I'm all about running what ya' brung' and having a great time. Mahalo. Arms race prevention, actually that was what I was referring to. At no point have I ever argued that old gear was superior to new gear. I just happen to have old gear dialed in for what I do. It works for me, and actually it seems as though it works for others too. I also have no problem with older gear listed as Vintage. I myself at 70 am considered vintage, so it fits well, just as my gear fits my riding style. So absolutely ride what works for you, and enjoy. We're all a little bit different and a little bit crazy. Take care. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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