Covid #'s trending down in Canada

[Atom Ant]

When one goes through the process of attaining life insurance, they go through a mirade amount of tests / screens, history of smoking or current usage, and nearly everything else mentioned is accounted for and factored in... And effects the price.  This is commonplace in a ton of other areas as well, and most public schools require vaccinations on a host of different viruses.  How this is materially different seems an overly politicized debate. 

It's close enough to what has been a broadly accepted norm for a very long time, vaccine effectiveness is now established based on the largest natural science experiment of all time, the debate over long term effects is a wash given we also don't understand the long term effects of Covid infection either- however there has never been a large and horrific vaccine driven long term health crisis ever and the mRNA vaccine tech has been studied intensely for over a decade and has received full FDA approval.  

I'll put a finer point on it: there is a high correlation between Trump supporters and his rhetoric on this subject and vaccine skepticism, when in fact it is the Trump administration we have to thank for project Warpspeed which delivered these vaccines safely and in record time (and truly, I am thankful to that administration for that).  You cannot square that circle, logically.  He should have, perhaps rightfully one could argue, won reelection on this fact alone.  Rhetorically, he went another way.

Liberty ends at the bridge of your nose, the old libertarian saying goes.  That has been a long held belief in conservative circles, circles I was proud to be a member of.  

Someone mentioned being able to sue another for spreading disease... Look at the legal backflips going on in Texas currently with outsourcing of enforcement via deputization of the public... Precedent matters, so we might get our wish!  The irony is both opinions as to the justifications are held simultaneously, often enough, by the same voters.

Its a fun time to be alive, no?

 

[BobD]

2 hours ago, TVR said:

How about those who are overweight? Maybe we can make a sliding scale where the premium increases based upon how much over your BMI is, or do we do this ONLY with COVID and the vaccine status. This is why I say the vaccine status is becoming a cult, as no other item makes people think so myopically. 

No one is going to catch being overweight. What you are saying is that insurance companies shouldn't be able to charge smokers more for life insurance, or bars shouldn't be able to turn away drunks.

[lowrider]

I understand that death can end a pandemic and a vaccination can prevent death but could someone explain how natural immunity is going to end this and upon what kind of time frame ? I like the idea of a strong immune system but what about a strong immune system that decides it's going to work for the other team which seems to be more ore less what covid seems to be doing. We just keep hosting it and allowing it to get stronger with each variant. I took the gamble and got the shot man up and grow some !

[bumpyride]

5 hours ago, TVR said:

Can we charge an extra $200 a month for health insurance for smokers? How about vapers? What about those who smoke weed; can we start drug testing them monthly? Since car crashes injure so many, can we start implementing additional premiums for those who drive an automobile? Maybe we should do stricter contract tracing and allow people who catch COVID to sue those who they contracted it from. Maybe we could expand that to all other communicable ailments. What happens when an unvaccinated catches it from the vaccinated; can they sue the provider who administered the vaccine as it didn't work? What about all the heart issues with children who are being vaccinated. Do we weep for them? I do. --added for context https://torontosun.com/news/provincial/over-100-ontario-youth-have-been-sent-to-hospital-for-vaccine-related-heart-problems  What were these kids chances of becoming seriously ill from COVID vs what they will now endure for the rest of their lives, not including future issues as there are no long term studies. What is the human cost of these kids lives now?

How about those who are overweight? Maybe we can make a sliding scale where the premium increases based upon how much over your BMI is, or do we do this ONLY with COVID and the vaccine status. This is why I say the vaccine status is becoming a cult, as no other item makes people think so myopically. 

This is a damn pandemic.  Short term death.  640,000 people in a little over a year.  Death comes in a short period of time, not like the idiots that smoke that can linger for years fighting lung cancer.  50,000 traffic deaths a year.  You're overweight, death comes in years, not weeks.

Yes, people that choose to have bad habits should pay for those habits.

What about the children that will die from a new variant.  How many children are now orphaned because parents  have died.

It's all about numbers, not anecdotes.

How do we recover when this goes on for years?  Christmas 2023 kills Grandma because Covid is still rampant.

Fools gambit to play against covid when you make the wrong first two moves.

[SunSurfer]

9 hours ago, TVR said:

What about natural immunity? Vaccination has become a cult. What would the justification be to force vaccination of someone with antibodies from a previous infection when all science shows natural immunity to be more of a robust shield. What are the numbers for risk of adverse affects, including death, vs protection in children as well?

Anyone want to explain to the rest of humanity why Israel, with one of the highest vaccination rates of any county on the planet is having record numbers of infection right now? It isn't from the unvaccinated, and these record case counts prove the vaccine doesn't stop transmission. This push to force vaccination while ignoring natural immunity is not helping to convince people and those pushing the previously exposed who now have immunity to vaccinate had better hope there are no long term side effects as the vaccine manufacturers have liability immunity, but those administrating the vaccine do not. 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-covid-graphs-prove-vaccines-works-delta-pfizer-1.10101640

Doubting science has become a cult. Vaccination removed smallpox from the world apart from a couple of secire laboratories. It has pretty much removed polio from the developed world. Vaccination of young women prevents deafness from intrauterine German measles. And the human papilloma virus (HPV) vaccine prevents many cases of cervical cancer, other genital & throat cancers. Care to catch hepatitis B, typhoid, Japanese encepahlitis, meningococcal meningitis etc etc. Or just get vaccinated!

Edited September 8, 2021 by SunSurfer

[bumpyride]

17 minutes ago, SunSurfer said:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-covid-graphs-prove-vaccines-works-delta-pfizer-1.10101640

 Or just get vaccinated!

30 years ago I spent 5 weeks in NZ.  Was invited into a home of an older couple and was offered a partnership in their business.  I have many times thought that it was the place I'd most like to be if it wasn't for my family.  Covid even makes that decision even more foolish.

Glad you folks are so on the ball in so many ways.

[SunSurfer]

2 hours ago, bumpyride said:

30 years ago I spent 5 weeks in NZ.  Was invited into a home of an older couple and was offered a partnership in their business.  I have many times thought that it was the place I'd most like to be if it wasn't for my family.  Covid even makes that decision even more foolish.

Glad you folks are so on the ball in so many ways.

NZ and the USA are very different places despite both starting from people leaving England (and other parts of Europe) and wanting to start a new life.

We trust our government.
⁠https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/30/even-as-new-zealand-battles-covid-trust-in-government-bucks-global-trend⁠

And, one of our founding "myths" about ourselves is highly valuing fairness and natural justice as described in -

"Fairness and Freedom: A History of Two Open Societies, New Zealand and the United States" by David Hackett Fischer.
⁠⁠https://artsfuse.org/56492/fuse-book-review-fairness-and-freedom/

[TVR]

14 hours ago, BobD said:

No one is going to catch being overweight. What you are saying is that insurance companies shouldn't be able to charge smokers more for life insurance, or bars shouldn't be able to turn away drunks.

No, that is not what I am saying. Although I always appreciate a good strawman argument, lets argue what is said, and not what you want to have been said by me.

The specific reason for Delta to add a surcharge to the insurance is due to their perceived added costs from those who are unvaccinated. They choose to ignore the data that shows the vaccine in no way prevents transmission, and choose to ignore the data that the vaccine does NOT make you immune. But holding to the point, they are looking at the surcharge due to the perceived increase in healthcare costs. 

My actual point, and not the one you want me to say, is that since obesity also increases healthcare costs, should we not have a premium on that? Your logic lacks logic associating drunks and being turned away from a bar and the increase in healthcare costs, the subject at hand. Why the myopic view of COVID alone?

 

And can we please stop stating the vaccine stops the spread of COVID or gives us immunity? Here is a Massachusetts example:
https://www.ibtimes.com/nearly-20000-45m-fully-vaccinated-massachusetts-residents-have-tested-positive-covid-3290735

And here is the statistics for Cornell University:
https://www.thecollegefix.com/despite-95-vaccination-rate-cornell-today-has-five-times-more-covid-cases-than-it-did-this-time-last-year/
 

Those who don't take the vaccine are putting you in no more danger than those who do take the vaccine and stating otherwise is disingenuous. Do what is good for your own health and lets stop with pretending that the vaccine either gives immunity or stops the spread of this.

Edited September 8, 2021 by TVR

[bumpyride]

13 minutes ago, TVR said:

No, that is not what I am saying. Although I always appreciate a good strawman argument, lets argue what is said, and not what you want to have been said by me.

The specific reason for Delta to add a surcharge to the insurance is due to their perceived added costs from those who are unvaccinated. They choose to ignore the data that shows the vaccine in no way prevents transmission, and choose to ignore the data that the vaccine does NOT make you immune. But holding to the point, they are looking at the surcharge due to the perceived increase in healthcare costs. 

My actual point, and not the one you want me to say, is that since obesity also increases healthcare costs, should we not have a premium on that? Your logic lacks logic associating drunks and being turned away from a bar and the increase in healthcare costs, the subject at hand. Why the myopic view of COVID alone?

On Delta you're kind of missing the point.  It is not "perceived" costs.  They did the analysis and it's costing them (not the insurance company) the $40 to $50 for each hospitalization for covid.  Delta is self insured.  If 95%+/- of the hospitalizations are due to the unvaccinated, it was an easy math for their bottom line.

The vaccine does not totally prevent positive cases, but it does almost totally eliminate deaths and hospitalizations, with many mild and asymptomatic cases.  Look at the numbers of hospitalization of vaccinated to unvaccinated.

Also, as the population of vaccinated people increase there will be an increase in the percentages of vaccinated people in the hospital, but the percentages of those vaccinated should remain constant (which is really low).

And to the "Myopic View of Covid":  Covid deaths/hospitalizations generally happen within weeks or months at most.  Obesity and smoking take years.  Drunks are hard to pin down. 

One in 7 people in Minnesota have a DUI, but you have to catch them, so it makes associating drinking with increased health costs pretty difficult.

 

 

 

[pow4ever]

On 9/4/2021 at 3:22 AM, scottishsurfer said:

who didn't realize he was only firing on one cylinder for 4 weeks.

humble brag  glad to hear that you got it all sorted out.  

 

23 hours ago, TVR said:

Anyone want to explain to the rest of humanity why Israel, with one of the highest vaccination rates of any county on the planet is having record numbers of infection right now? 

please see this earlier post

 

[softbootsurfer]

Is there some reason for this thread? Covid #s trending down in Canada, is totally forgotten...here are some worthless Facts from Seattle...

https://publichealthinsider.com/2021/09/03/new-data-dashboard-tracks-covid-19-risk-for-unvaccinated-people-compared-to-vaccinated-people/

[lowrider]

Grocery store today one way arrows etc etc I'm going up the lane guy comes at me with his cart wrong way I indicate the arrows are going in the opposite direction and his response is well I'm going this way. I think that sums it up completely for me. Mods may delete this thread and I'm totally ok with that decision. I took a gamble taking the vaccine not just to help myself but to try and make a bad situation better for everyone. To those of you like minded thank you for getting your shot. I'm truly sorry for those in the health care profession who will have to deal with the others. It's just not fair for them to have to deal with what's happening now and into the future. Sunsurfer thanks for the links I'm not sure people can still read !         Covid numbers are trending back up all across Canada (Proves were just as stupid as the rest of the world !)

[SunSurfer]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/10/boys-more-at-risk-from-pfizer-jab-side-effect-than-covid-suggests-study

The link takes you to a newspaper article describing follow-up after vaccination research that, for now, suggests caution about vaccinating healthy teenage boys against Covid with the Pfizer, and possibly Moderna, vaccines.

As with everything Covid, what we "know" keeps changing as new research becomes completed. Any decision about what we personally do should be made in the light of our current best information.

[bumpyride]

Absolutely makes total sense to monitor all aspects of the Vaccines.

 With Pfizer instances of myocarditis and pericarditis following Covid-19 vaccination. “We have concluded that the Covid-19 vaccines made by Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna may be linked with a small increase in the risk of these very rare conditions. The cases tended to be mild and the vast majority recovered with simple treatment and rest,” they added.

What's amazing here is the difference between California and England hospital admittances for boys 12to 15.  California had 162/million and England had 6/million with Pfizer, with England having a longer waiting period than California.

In England it makes sense to continue because Covid Admittances were at 44/million compared to Vaccine at 6/million.  So bearing some other findings, we ought to go with a single shot or a longer period of time before 2nd shot.

Wish this wasn't all this complicated, but it's not really unexpected.

Monitoring is the answer, and full disclosure is a must. If following England's lead, it's still 7.33 times more dangerous to be hospitalized for Covid, than the Vaccine, but in California it's 4 times as risky for Pfizer Vaccne than Covid, though still rare.  We ought to adopt England's waiting period immediately, or settle for 1 dose for now.

[RideGuy]

On 9/8/2021 at 10:23 AM, TVR said:

Those who don't take the vaccine are putting you in no more danger than those who do take the vaccine and stating otherwise is disingenuous. Do what is good for your own health and lets stop with pretending that the vaccine either gives immunity or stops the spread of this.

The stats (at least in Ontario) don't back that up.  The majority of Covid cases are from the unvaxxed minority.  The unvaxxed are at a rate of about 11/100k.  Unvaxxed 1.6/100K.  Similar for hospitalizations.

Also, I don't want to be responsible for getting an unvaxxed sick.  I have someone at work that is not vaxxed, and I'm keeping my distance, and wearing a mask around him not for my safety, but for his.

I am a believer that we must move on and return to normal, no matter what the case count is.  There is a good chance that we are all going to catch covid, and I'm OK with that.  The biggest issue right now is the ICU full of unvaxxed people.  This is what's holding us back from fully reopening and could be potential for more restrictions.

[softbootsurfer]

Hospital Beds filled with the Unvaccinated does indeed cause problems, for everyone else...number one being, Hospitals unable to provide their normal services, because Covid Unvaccinated people are overwhelming the system, Why? because they are UNvaccinated...

 

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/covid-coronavirus-vaccines-hospital-cases-rates-unvaccinated

[SunSurfer]

Covid immunology explainer for the general public. The immune system is actually incredibly complex but this gives you the basics.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126331885/covid19-to-boost-or-not-to-boost

[SunSurfer]

UK data showing how vaccination reduces death rates from Covid.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/13/fully-vaccinated-people-account-for-12-of-englands-covid-19-deaths

[Neil Gendzwill]

Of the 198 people currently hospitalized in Saskatchewan, 154 were not fully vaccinated. As we are currently 77% vaccinated for 12+ (nobody younger is hospitalized), that means that on this limited data set you are nearly 12X more likely to be hospitalized for Covid without a vaccination than with.

Get the damn shot.

[softbootsurfer]

on and on it goes...Facts equal Reality

https://www.yahoo.com/news/crisis-problem-washington-grapples-idaho-181217761.html

and

https://news.yahoo.com/rural-idaho-hospitals-crisis-unvaccinated-121645294.html

[lordmetroland]

6 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

that means that on this limited data set you are nearly 12X more likely to be hospitalized for Covid without a vaccination than with.

…and, evidently, vaccination also makes you less susceptible to conspiracy theories and quackery. 

[st_lupo]

3 hours ago, lordmetroland said:

…and, evidently, vaccination also makes you less susceptible to conspiracy theories and quackery. 

And I’ve got it from a reputable source that getting the shot gives you bigger balls.  Soo… pencil thin carves on double diamonds, here I come!!!

always include your sources: https://www.thedailybeast.com/nicki-minaj-says-she-wont-get-vaccinated-against-covid-19-because-cousins-friend-has-swollen-testicles

[SunSurfer]

Family members of unvaccinated people who died of Covid tell their experiences. Some insights into why people who aren't keen to vaccinated feel that way. The piece is not unsympathetic to the vaccine hesitant.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/14/the-virus-is-painfully-real-vaccine-hesitant-people-are-dying-and-their-loved-ones-want-the-world-to-listen

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by SunSurfer
Initially wrong link inserted

[bumpyride]

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/at-least-two-million-children-have-lost-a-parent-or-grandparent-caregiver-to-covid/

 

[Corey]

Related - This is a fascinating, but long, psychology podcast about how conspiracy theories grow and spread so much faster now because of how easy it is to form a group of like-minded people on the internet: 

https://youarenotsosmart.com/2021/07/26/yanss-211-how-the-psychology-that-leads-people-into-qanon-can-help-us-understand-not-only-what-leads-people-into-a-conspiracy-community-but-which-community-and-why/

One key point that I found interesting is that the other side spewing facts at you matters less than where those facts come from, and whether or not your trusted people feel they are valid or not. 

The irony of sharing this on a website of like-minded people devoted to a fringe form of snowboarding is not lost on me.