Covid #'s trending down in Canada

[bumpyride]

[TVR]

Since this is now the FB generation and "trusted" sources are outlets like FB now:

Channel 7 is doing a piece on those who have lost someone unvaccinated to COVID. Here is their request to the comments:

After the vaccines were available to everyone, did you lose an unvaccinated loved one to COVID-19? If you're willing to share your family's story, please DM us your contact information. We may reach out for a story we're working on.

Here is the link:  https://www.facebook.com/wxyzdetroit/photos/a.461583946134/10158207966696135/?type=3

Read the posts. Read what everyone is saying. I don't think FB will keep this up for long.

[lordmetroland]

5 hours ago, Corey said:

Related - This is a fascinating, but long, psychology podcast about how conspiracy theories grow and spread so much faster now because of how easy it is to form a group of like-minded people on the internet:

+1 on that. It took a lot more will and backbone to be a kook before the internet/social media. You really had to WANT to view porn / buy drugs / see some weird band to overcome the obstacles. Now any a******e can find like-minded a********s without expending any effort.

[SunSurfer]

10 hours ago, TVR said:

Since this is now the FB generation and "trusted" sources are outlets like FB now:

Channel 7 is doing a piece on those who have lost someone unvaccinated to COVID. Here is their request to the comments:

After the vaccines were available to everyone, did you lose an unvaccinated loved one to COVID-19? If you're willing to share your family's story, please DM us your contact information. We may reach out for a story we're working on.

Here is the link:  https://www.facebook.com/wxyzdetroit/photos/a.461583946134/10158207966696135/?type=3

Read the posts. Read what everyone is saying. I don't think FB will keep this up for long.

@TVR

I looked at the Facebook page you linked.
So the anecdotal Facebook "evidence" supports an avalanche of deaths due to Covid vaccination? Really?

In New Zealand, a nation with a sophisticated, joined up, centrally organised healthcare system
where 2.9 million people have received at least one dose of the Pfizer vaccine,
where there is a national patient registration system,
where all deaths are required to have a death certificate with the cause of death,
where there is universal access to free public hospital care, and
where there is a rigorous drug adverse reaction monitoring system (https://nzphvc.otago.ac.nz/reporting/),
ANYONE may report a possible death or reaction to a drug to CARM. I've reported drug reactions to CARM myself, and have published case reports of newly identfied, or rare drug reactions.
Doctors in NZ have no financial incentive to withhold information about adverse reactions to any drugs or vaccination.

A number of deaths have been reported that were associated in time with Pfizer Covid vaccination. Just 1 death, due to myocarditis in a patient with multiple other health issues, has been determined to be due to the vaccine. During the vaccination campaign there has also been just 1 death decided to have been caused by Covid, in a 90+ year old woman with multiple other health issues.

Association in time is not evidence of cause and effect.
I am not sure whether you "trust" Facebook as an information source to make decisions about your own health.
I don't want to win an argument.
I do want you to be as safe as modern medical science can make you, in the face of an illness that can kill.
 

 

[TVR]

I agree and want people to be safe as well.

I am not presenting the information on the challenges the vaccine is having for my own good. I gain nothing from this and instead gather considerable condemnation. I am presenting this information as it is being suppressed and people should have all the information so as to make informed decisions. Some believe people don't have the right to make decisions about their own health, and for those people, I just disagree.

I presented that information so people could see how much information they are not seeing. How many stories go counter to the narrative. How much is being censored and kept from the public. I don't like or trust FB. But even FB now has many people speaking out.

Take any info I present and just be informed. That is all, and I too want everyone to be safe and healthy.

[lowrider]

As a kid i remember a Corvette for sale for $50.00 dollars because the owner died in it. Do you think there might have  been hundreds of similar incidents ? Information and entertainment are not the same thing but l fear many don't know the difference.

[softbootsurfer]

just so you know...  ... I believe the CDC when it says...

Unvaccinated People are filling Hospital Beds, Vaccinated people are not filling Hospital Beds, Hospitals are overwhelmed and unable to maintain their normal procedures and care for People needing Medical services to stay alive...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief

[pow4ever]

there is a time and place for discussion.
At work - we discuss pro/con with the info we have.
At Some point a decision have to be made.
Once a decision is made; we are no longer general/strategist.
We become solider and march forward. 
Having people constant questioning/second guess after a decision have been made often have negative outcome.
Not saying foolish consistency and not change course/correction when data/result does not align with goal.

I also don't believed in censoring data/information.  However it's all moderation.
Should nuclear secret/national security/or your own private banking info be freely distributed?

Freedom of speech doesn't protect one's right to yell fire in a crowd theater.

IMHO:  censorship have taken on a different form
It went from not enough information to flood people with so much information that analysis paralysis kick in.
People's nature is to avoid ambiguity; and life is often grey.  Hence when the initial filtering isn't done for the mass.
Outcome is often poor.

Censor isn't always bad:
https://sos.oregon.gov/archives/exhibits/ww2/Pages/threats-bombs.aspx

It's not an easy Question to answer:
Can people be trusted to make the right decision?

An absolute position just seems hubris to me.

 

 

[Neil Gendzwill]

3 hours ago, TVR said:

I agree and want people to be safe as well.

I am not presenting the information on the challenges the vaccine is having for my own good. I gain nothing from this and instead gather considerable condemnation. I am presenting this information as it is being suppressed and people should have all the information so as to make informed decisions. Some believe people don't have the right to make decisions about their own health, and for those people, I just disagree.

I presented that information so people could see how much information they are not seeing. How many stories go counter to the narrative. How much is being censored and kept from the public. I don't like or trust FB. But even FB now has many people speaking out.

Take any info I present and just be informed. That is all, and I too want everyone to be safe and healthy.

Oh, good grief.  Facebook is not a trusted source of information.  Facebook is the source of a great deal of misinformation.

[BlueB]

So FB is fine when they use it to solicit the covid stories that go along the official storyline, but not fine when they get the respobse opposite to what they were hoping for? 

[softbootsurfer]

11 minutes ago, BlueB said:

So FB is fine when they use it to solicit the covid stories that go along the official storyline, but not fine when they get the respobse opposite to what they were hoping for? 

Seriously? get a Grip Buddy !!

FB is a bunch of wannabees all telling you what it is...

Science and scientific Journals by People who actually know what they are talking about is the preferred source for appropriate information when it comes to Medical procedures and or Medicines right? 

[slopestar]

8 minutes ago, softbootsurfer said:

Seriously? get a Grip Buddy !!

FB is a bunch of wannabees all telling you what it is...

Science and scientific Journals by People who actually know what they are talking about is the preferred source for appropriate information when it comes to Medical procedures and or Medicines right? 

 Very true Bob. Yet many scientists and medical practitioners: nurses, nurse practitioners and doctors do not  agree with the narrative we have been led to believe. The virus is real and it is a bitch and then some. I think the level of mis-information we have been fed from all sides makes it the most difficult. Like holistic over big pharma… I think it’s a culling of the herd. Short term and long term…

but hey… hoping we will have Aspen in February to look forward to and to hopefully remember for a very long time

 

[BlueB]

5 hours ago, softbootsurfer said:

Seriously? get a Grip Buddy !!

FB is a bunch of wannabees all telling you what it is...

Science and scientific Journals by People who actually know what they are talking about is the preferred source for appropriate information when it comes to Medical procedures and or Medicines right? 

Damn "Buddy", how about actually trying to understand what I wrote there? At no point I try to promote FB (which I don't even use) or detract from medical/scientific sources. I actually complained about biased use or approval/disapproval of FB and censorship that's going on. 

[TVR]

The more there are comments in this thread, the more it reinforces my following statements:

Pro-Vaccine sentiments have formed an almost cult like following.
  -  anyone presenting evidence against their point is met with vitriol.
  -  All information sources are dismissed unless they push a specific dogma.
  -  COVID is now seen through a pure myopic view.

I don't see anyone here who either presents evidence contrary to the current media push, or who is against this specific set of vaccines (not all vaccines, but specifically these ones) screaming how those who choose to get vaccinated or vaccinate their children with no long term studies on long term side affects are monsters. I do see the vaccinated, however, insulting and berating those who present data against this vaccine. 

All those people who posted their FB stories of vaccine injuries are lying, right? All those who died did it for a noble cause, right? People sign up for the military, and know the risks of death. But it is OK to sacrifice those people who did not sign up for that, for the better good, right? There should be no investigations into the why those people had those reactions or for those who died, as long as we keep pushing the narrative, right? I feel for those people, and I want information, all information, to be available so a safe vaccine that will also stop the spread can be made. Those with measles from Afghanistan who have come into this country are not a significant risk. This is because the measles vaccine produces immunity and with immunity it prevents contraction and spread of the pathogen. 

Only with all data can an vaccine for COVID do the same and Virol over data you don't like only shows ones true colors.

 

[softbootsurfer]

sarcasm can be useful at times... 

[pow4ever]

couple of you seems to embrace contrarian way of thinking.
Definition of contrarian: a person who opposes or rejects popular opinion.

Nothing wrong with it.  It's just a label.  Sometime it's good; sometime it's bad and sometime it make no difference.

If you present idea that's against the grain; I am good with that.  Let's explore/discuss that idea.
However when it's presented as "fact"; then it's a bit harder pill to swallow.

When present different view points:
Look at it deeper(introspection):  what's the intention/goal for holding that particular view?

seems like you believe vaccine in general is good/effective.
Just not this particular vaccine/covid.  I can see where one come from.

We all have confirmation bias and internet/FB/social media exacerbate that bias/bubble.

re: buddy.  Hope you get a laugh out of this

 

[Neil Gendzwill]

Can you point to a legitimate source of data for deaths or serious side effects due to Covid vaccines? Anecdotal evidence from FB doesn’t count.
 

Here in Canada we had a few well publicized deaths due to the Astra Zeneca vaccine. Frankly if AZ was the only option we would have continued to use it as the risk of death from Covid was far higher than the risk from the AZ vaccination. However we had options so we don’t use AZ anymore. 
 

However those few deaths were huge news published through every reputable news source. People in general don’t understand statistics or math very well so there was a lot of fear and vaccine hesitancy generated from those stories.

If there was something similar going on with Pfizer or Moderna we would be hearing about it. The media love nothing more than a juicy story. 

[TVR]

18 minutes ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Can you point to a legitimate source of data for deaths or serious side effects due to Covid vaccines?

VAERS seems to be legitimate.

[Neil Gendzwill]

4 minutes ago, TVR said:

VAERS seems to be legitimate.

VAERS is self-reported with no verification. Anyone can make a claim there. It’s often quoted by anti vax people but it is not a legitimate source. Here is a recent fact check by Reuters on one of the false scare stories about VAERS going around. It contains links to other fact check stories and some details about why you should be skeptical about data from VAERS. 

[Corey]

2 hours ago, TVR said:

Pro-Vaccine sentiments have formed an almost cult like following.
  -  anyone presenting evidence against their point is met with vitriol.
  -  All information sources are dismissed unless they push a specific dogma.
  -  COVID is now seen through a pure myopic view.

Can you imagine how that could be re-written to express the "other side's" opinion? 

Anti-Vaccine sentiments have formed an almost cult like following.

  -  anyone presenting evidence against their point is met with vitriol.

  -  All information sources are dismissed unless they push a specific dogma.

  -  COVID is now seen through a pure myopic view.

We are at an interesting time where there are so many people proclaiming to be experts that have little training, and they're able to get large followings thanks to the ease of information flow. See podcast I mentioned above. Plus, both sides point to extremists on the other sides as representing the core values of the other side. And there are definitely extremists on both sides. 

Here's to good health for everyone! 

[TVR]

1 hour ago, Corey said:

Can you imagine how that could be re-written to express the "other side's" opinion? 

Anti-Vaccine sentiments have formed an almost cult like following.

  -  anyone presenting evidence against their point is met with vitriol.

  -  All information sources are dismissed unless they push a specific dogma.

  -  COVID is now seen through a pure myopic view.

No, actually I cannot see that. 

I welcome you to show the vitriol in any post in here that anyone has produced as the few who ask questions in here present another side to the vaccine discussions. I can produce several from those who support covid vaccination and even forced covid vaccination within this small community.

The dismissal of information also seems to be specific to one belief structure. outlets like Fox news are actively dismissed while those who provide information from CNN or other major outlets tend to be of the other category. When sources are dismissed, it is with sarcasm and vitriol as to try to shame the other person away from these sources as if there is something inherently wrong with them. Fox or Facebook, two sources which are on polar opposites of the spectrum are welcomed when presenting evidence, and I don't see those who question the vaccine dismissing sources so readily...

The myopic view also seems to be unique to one belief structure. Those against the current covid vaccines in here have all participated in other vaccines, but are lumped in with the anti-vax crowd. Those in here that present information alternatives to the main narrative all seem to want people to be well and would like a cure or a better alternative to what is happening now. They agree with the aspect it is harming society, but simply ask questions and provide information, like the effectiveness of natural immunity. The myopic view is the hardline view that those who want the vaccine know what is best for everyone else, choose to enforce their will upon others through mandatory vaccines, and then as they claim to follow the science, they choose to disregard hundreds of years of science on natural immunities and the current studies of the better protection that causes and take the myopic view that science can be cherry picked to their desires and their view is what should be mandated for all.

No, I think I am having a hard time with the simple reversal above as it  factually does not present even in this small selection of people within this community. Those that agree with some or all of my points or data or information tend to want the rest of us all to be safe and eventually prosper while I see language that states this wish is not the same from everyone.

Edited September 16, 2021 by TVR

[TVR]

2 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

VAERS is self-reported with no verification.

I read the article and saw allot of the word "debunked" but not allot of information that is actual evidence that the individuals reporting to VAERS lied. If you want to dismiss VAERS as an accurate source, I am not sure what one could provide that would satisfy your requirement. I don't believe there will 12000 autopsy reports for the 12k deaths so I am not sure what would be convincing for you. 

For perspective, however, 60 Minutes: Swine Flu (1976) is on youtube and Dan Rather goes into detail on that vaccine. They stopped it after only 51 deaths so one has to ask why if even half the reports in VAERS are accurate, why the information is being censored on big tech social media and why there hasn't been more research into whether the information reported has any truth. Many, many doctors have spoken out and been censored, so I am not sure what info would satisfy your requirement or from what source.

[Neil Gendzwill]

It's not even necessarily that they lied.  The deaths reported to VAERS are deaths that occur after a vaccination is received.  There is not necessarily a relation between the vaccination and the death.  So when vaccine alarmists state things like "12,000 deaths caused by covid vaccines", they are being disingenuous.  The tool is meant to be used a sort of early warning system and CDC explicitly states it is not meant to establish causality.  Here is an update from the CDC on the sort of analysis they do with that data.

[softbootsurfer]

so in the US, there has been 462 Million vaccine shots so far:

https://usafacts.org/visualizations/covid-vaccine-tracker-states/

 

and 640,000 dead so far from the Virus, plus of course the Long Term potential medical conditions for those who have had the Virus and Lived...

 

and the Hospitals report that the Unvaccinated are taking up a lot of their Time and Materials...

 

and

 

The Hospitals report that they are unable to provide Standard regular care because of the amount of Unvaccinated people requiring care...

 

It is safe to say, People who have taken the Vaccine, believe it is safe and in their best interest...while People who don't want the Vaccine for whatever reason, feel the opposite...this will not change no matter how many times you try to explain why you Believe what you Believe...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pow4ever]

For most things in life I am an idiot.
I might be an "expert" in one or two things.

Point here:  people trust my opinion on the things i am expert in shouldn't trust me in things that I know little about.

There is often halo effect:  He is so smart in "field x" so he must be expert in "field w,y,a,b,c,d...".
truth is:  i am just an idiot stumbling through life. 

This is why at some point i need to take a leap of faith and trusting the so call expert.
I do believe in the scientific method.  I make decision based on what little i know.  I also make decision on odds/risks tolerance

.
I maybe be call sheeple but at this stage of my life; i tend not to let external factor impact my inner peace/happiness.

There is CNN/FOX news and there are CNN/FOX opinion.
Does the talk head practice what they preach?  Those who tell you get/not get covid vaccine; but what did they do?
For me that's a simple litmus test.

At some point:  we just have to agree to disagree in a civil manner.  Which is ok.
I do wish everyone well/healthy; there are no malice in my heart.  I hope you live without regret.