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Covid #'s trending down in Canada


lowrider

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16 hours ago, big mario said:

Howzabout some facts about your ballz, they grown enough yet to hop on that coila' more often, or do you need a booster( or 3)

Last time I go to Nicki Minaj for medical advice. All those vaccinations didn’t swell things at all. I should have gone with the tried-and-true hernia surgery method. Not just the size of gorilla nuts, but the color too. Looks like I’ll be lame at snowboarding again this season…

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I don't disagree and frequently hold the view that "science advance/progress one funeral at a time".
Dogma should be challenged when better/overwhelming evidence is there.
"look both side before cross the street" seems to be a dogma that I will follow till the day i depart.
pick When and which dogma to rail against to me is wisdom.

Fascinating to see what hill people choose to literally die on.

In tech:  best practices is there to protect the inexperiences.  If you know what you are doing; you can choose to remove the guard rail.  making an inform decision. 

Put it in a different way:  "Bureaucracy is there to compensate incompetence and undisciplined"
This is what the policy maker's struggle.

I can see in some case where natural immunity is better than vaccine.

Did you see the movie Bright(with Will Smith) on Netflix?

"The Magic Wands are extremely powerful magical artifacts. They are described as nuclear weapons that grant wishes. However, only a Bright is able to use the power of a Wand. If any being other than a Bright touches a wand with their bare hands, they die, exploding spontaneously along with with those around them. "

In that context -
Do you think you are one of the lucky one with superior natural immunity?
I play the odds when it comes to high risk/low reward and not leave it to chance like lottery.

This is interesting but I still think mask, vaccine make sense; despite it contradict the main stream narrative.
"No Significant Difference in Viral Load Between Vaccinated and Unvaccinated, Asymptomatic and Symptomatic Groups Infected with SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant"
ref: https://med.papers.bar/paper/2021.09.28.21264262

If anything this show me that the majority of people is not ready to see "how sausage(science) is made in real time".

Devil is in the detail:  if we only read the headline and it reinforced the view (which ever side).
If we did dig deep:
It appear that at some point in time after infection, viral load might be the same, but:

> the viral loads decreased more rapidly in vaccinated than unvaccinated individuals in Singapore [3], suggesting that vaccinated individuals may remain infectious for shorter periods of time.

nuance matter.  but i doubt anyone will spent the time to read this.

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1 hour ago, pow4ever said:

"No Significant Difference in Viral Load Between Vaccinated and Unvaccinated, Asymptomatic and Symptomatic Groups Infected with SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant"
ref: https://med.papers.bar/paper/2021.09.28.21264262

So, if this was correct, the only point of preventing unvacinated people going places (vaxx passport), is to protect themselves? 

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8 minutes ago, BlueB said:

So, if this was correct, the only point of preventing unvacinated people going places (vaxx passport), is to protect themselves? 

The point of preventing unvaccinated people from going places is to provide a stick that encourages them to be vaccinated.  We know for sure that vaccinated people are much less likely to get severe symptoms or die if they contract the disease. We know that unvaccinated severely sick people are clogging our hospitals to the extent that it is affecting the health and safety of everybody.  We need some mechanism to encourage idiots to get vaccinated without forcing it on them.  So we are semi-forcing it on them.

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what about from the same study? which was also quoted to illustrate the point

one can't just read a head line and jump to a conclusion/selective hearing.
Science isn't always black/white. 

> the viral loads decreased more rapidly in vaccinated than unvaccinated individuals in Singapore [3], suggesting that vaccinated individuals may remain infectious for shorter periods of time.

can't pick and choose fact based on "desirability of outcome" 😉 

 

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Actually, I did see that part. 

However, we neither know in what stage of viral load are the vaccinated, nor wheater the unvaccinated are infected. Since unvaccinated are more likely to develop some symptoms than vaccinated, they are more likely to stay at home. So, by using the vaxx card, you have more chances of stopping a healthy unvaccinated than a viro-loaded vaccinated, thus actually protecting the unvaccinated. 

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12 hours ago, scottishsurfer said:

literally 2 weeks before i got the rona i eventually managed to out climb my friend on his ebike. It did take 5000+ vertical feet of climbing but his battery eventually raised the white flag cue the heckling from me when he had to get off and start walking🤣

I bet that was a major contributor to you being alive right now.

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3 hours ago, pow4ever said:

I don't disagree and frequently hold the view that "science advance/progress one funeral at a time".
Dogma should be challenged when better/overwhelming evidence is there.
"look both side before cross the street" seems to be a dogma that I will follow till the day i depart.
pick When and which dogma to rail against to me is wisdom.

Fascinating to see what hill people choose to literally die on.

In tech:  best practices is there to protect the inexperiences.  If you know what you are doing; you can choose to remove the guard rail.  making an inform decision. 

Put it in a different way:  "Bureaucracy is there to compensate incompetence and undisciplined"

I can see in some case where natural immunity is better than vaccine.

Did you see the movie Bright(with Will Smith) on Netflix?

"The Magic Wands are extremely powerful magical artifacts. They are described as nuclear weapons that grant wishes. However, only a Bright is able to use the power of a Wand. If any being other than a Bright touches a wand with their bare hands, they die, exploding spontaneously along with with those around them. "

In that context -
Do you think you are one of the lucky one with superior natural immunity?
I play the odds when it comes to high risk and not leave it to chance like lottery.

This is interesting but I still think mask, vaccine make sense; despite it contradict the main stream narrative.
"No Significant Difference in Viral Load Between Vaccinated and Unvaccinated, Asymptomatic and Symptomatic Groups Infected with SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant"
ref: https://med.papers.bar/paper/2021.09.28.21264262

If anything this show me that the majority of people is not ready to see "how sausage(science) is made in real time".

Devil is in the detail:  if we only read the heading and it reinforced the view (which ever side).
If we did dig deep:
It appear that at some point in time after infection, viral load might be the same, but:

> the viral loads decreased more rapidly in vaccinated than unvaccinated individuals in Singapore [3], suggesting that vaccinated individuals may remain infectious for shorter periods of time.

nuance matter.  but i doubt anyone will spent the time to read this.

So essentially if one is vaccinated or not around someone at risk that cannot be vaccinated, you need to wear a mask.

Therefore, it seems one gets it for themselves, not for others. Taking it or not is purely a personal decision. Whether the disease spreads slower/faster due to a shorter infectious time; it's going to make the rounds to everyone, eventually.

I don't care if others have a flu shot. Who cares. Same with measles, polio, etc.... I also don't care if you drive without a seatbelt on.

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1 hour ago, BlueB said:

Actually, I did see that part. 

However, we neither know in what stage of viral load are the vaccinated, nor wheater the unvaccinated are infected. Since unvaccinated are more likely to develop some symptoms than vaccinated, they are more likely to stay at home. So, by using the vaxx card, you have more chances of stopping a healthy unvaccinated than a viro-loaded vaccinated, thus actually protecting the unvaccinated. 

cool.  seem we are in violent agreement on most points?
I am not sure i followed your logic exactly on this "thus actually protecting the unvaccinated"
If i interpret literally.  Yes  herd immunity is there to protect the unvaccinated. 

Like in snowboarding (it's not one single thing that make a good carve): 
get vaccinated(just in case we get it; less severe symptom).
wear mask, social distance(to protect other, vaccinated or not).
flatten the curve so hospital scarce resource is not over stretch.

 

37 minutes ago, Odd Job said:

I don't care if others have a flu shot. Who cares. Same with measles, polio, etc.... I also don't care if you drive without a seatbelt on.

I get that about "freedom".  When i was younger.  libertarianism was attractive to me.
As i get older and found that it's not that black and white.
Now i subscribe to a more collective libertarianism view (a bit oxymoron) or maybe Libertarian paternalism.

On seat belt:
one might become a projectile out of the front window and hit me.  

On mask:
Mask is to protect the other: so my viral droplet does not reach other (vaccinated or not).

yes it looked like it's here to stay and become part "normal flu".  Key is to flatten the curve to buy time so we do not run out of hospital beds for non-covid related emergency.  health care is a scarce resource.

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1 hour ago, pow4ever said:

I am not sure i followed your logic exactly on this "thus actually protecting the unvaccinated"
If i interpret literally.  Yes  herd immunity is there to protect the unvaccinated. 

Literally: By stopping the unvacinated from entering places, we are protecting those unvaccinated, not the vaccinated. The problem is, those unvaccinated didn't really ask to be protected. So let them be... 

2 hours ago, Odd Job said:

So essentially if one is vaccinated or not around someone at risk that cannot be vaccinated, you need to wear a mask.

Therefore, it seems one gets it for themselves, not for others. Taking it or not is purely a personal decision. Whether the disease spreads slower/faster due to a shorter infectious time; it's going to make the rounds to everyone, eventually.

I don't care if others have a flu shot. Who cares. Same with measles, polio, etc.... I also don't care if you drive without a seatbelt on.

Agreed on everything, except the 1st paragraph. Those people need to take care of themselves, not expect everyone else to take care of them. Since this virus is here to stay, they can not expect the world to wear masks forever. 

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1 hour ago, BlueB said:

Literally: By stopping the unvacinated from entering places, we are protecting those unvaccinated, not the vaccinated. The problem is, those unvaccinated didn't really ask to be protected. So let them be... 

It's not really about protecting the unvaccinated.  It's about hospital beds.  So by protecting the unvaccinated from themselves, we ARE protecting the people who need ICU beds for reasons other than covid.  Not to mention the burnt out health care workers that have had to deal with this for 18+ months.

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@pow4ever Paper is a preprint and has not been peer reviewed. However, from USC Davis, a usually reliable source.

Evidence of viral load in the USC paper is reported at only one point in time, and does not describe what happened to viral load over time. Hence the reference to the Singapore paper where it was tracked over time, but the USC paper gives us no information that confirms or refutes the Singapore finding.

IF the key findings (similar distribution of viral loads in Delta infected subjects, vaccinated or unvaccinated) are REPEATED in other settings THEN it would appear that vaccine passports allowing greater freedom of movement are not appropriate.

An old saying "One swallow does not make a summer."

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10 hours ago, Odd Job said:

I bet that was a major contributor to you being alive right now.

Yes and no, Yes my fitness meant my lung capacity and ability to absorb oxygen was good enough that i could get by quite happily on only one lung. No because it meant i could get by quite happily on one lung so i wasnt exactly rushing to the ER/AnE department(4 weeks later) so it made reinflating it more awkward than a normal collapsed lung😅

Edited by scottishsurfer
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The above conversations give me hope for humanity. This thread originated with many calling the unvaccinated the spawn of Satan himself, and now there are productive discussions. 

Lets just keep evaluating the data as it continues to evolve and see where all this goes.

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11 hours ago, TVR said:

The above conversations give me hope for humanity. This thread originated with many calling the unvaccinated the spawn of Satan himself, and now there are productive discussions. 

Of course, The Spawn of Satan would have no need for a vaccine, so you can see where the confusion started. Happy I was able to contribute to productive discussions!

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16 hours ago, lordmetroland said:

Of course, The Spawn of Satan would have no need for a vaccine, so you can see where the confusion started. Happy I was able to contribute to productive discussions!

And just to complete the track of everything taboo:

And Jesus hung out with Lepers (Far more contagious) so what is your point?

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26 minutes ago, TVR said:

And just to complete the track of everything taboo:

And Jesus hung out with Lepers (Far more contagious) so what is your point?

Far more contagious? Euh?  no.

https://www.cdc.gov/leprosy/transmission/index.html

"Prolonged, close contact with someone with untreated leprosy over many months is needed to catch the disease"

 

https://www.medicinenet.com/is_leprosy_hansens_disease_contagious/article.htm#what_is_leprosy

"However, acquisition of the disease usually occurs after long-term (months to years) contact with an untreated individual with the disease."

 

https://www.leprosymission.org/blog/how-is-leprosy-transmitted/

"Recent research by our team in Bangladesh showed that, over the course of a year, no more than 13 out of every 1,000 people who lived with a person affected by leprosy was diagnosed with the disease themselves. "

 

https://www.aad.org/public/diseases/a-z/leprosy-risk

"Scientists have learned that to catch leprosy, a healthy person must have months of close contact with someone who has leprosy."

Fun Fact from the link above:

"It’s possible to catch leprosy by handling an armadillo. U.S. dermatologists are finding that some patients who get leprosy have either handled an armadillo or spent time outdoors in an area where these animals live."

I guess, we'll have to ban armadillos from restaurants, concerts and family reunions. LOL.

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