why binding "lift" in mounting?

[genepires]

long time softboot boarder trying out hardboots.

 

I have a question about the mounting of the binding.  I get the cant the binding inwards but why would someone want to lift the toe or heal upwards?  regards to TD3 bindings.

 

seems like one would want a flat foot to board with the cant inwards.

 

thanks

gene

 

 

[genepires]

I appologize in advance if there is already a thread on this topic.

[Surf Quebec]

Toe lift on front foot and heel lift on back foot allows you to have a wider stance.

Of course it's a personal preference.

[Guest]

Gene-

 

Inward cant is completely about personal preference, with many people not using any.  Some people, myself included, prefer outward cant, others prefer none.  Totally up to you.  I recommend not using any until you are sure you either want or don't want any.  I started a poll about this topic earlier this year.  You can check it out here

 

The same is technically true in regards to lift, but it is a more commonly used adjustment for the bindings.  Having toe and heel lift do two big things, allow you to ride a wider, more stable stance comfortably, and provide additional leverage for pressuring the edge.  Again, it all comes down to personal preference, but starting with 3*/3* is a happy place to start for most people.

[genepires]

.  Again, it all comes down to personal preference, but starting with 3*/3* is a happy place to start for most people.

 

 

I assume that means try a 3 degree cant and 3 degree lift?  or a 3 degree front binding toe lift and 3 degree back binding heal lift?

 

thanks

gene

[Jeffrey Day]

I think Surf Quebec nailed on why to have toe/heel lift...allows a wider stance.

 

Another way to look at canting is to figure out if you are bow-legged or knock-kneed. If you are bow-legged, you may want to consider an inward canting. And conversely, if you are knock-kneed, you may want to consider outward canting. Forum, correct me if I'm wrong, maybe vise versa.

 

But most people start with 3* front toe lift/3*rear heel lift and 0 canting on either binding. Nice neutral place to start.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Jeffrey Day

[BlueB]

.or a 3 degree front binding toe lift and 3 degree back binding heal lift?

This ^

However, with TD2/3 bindings, you can rotate the 3deg base to any direction, to get any combo between cant/lift, not exceeding 3deg pure cant or pure lift.

[Corey]

As the others have said, it's highly personal.  I'd start with 3 degrees of pure toe lift on the front foot and 3 degrees of pure heel lift on the back foot.  

 

If you have hardboots already, stand on a firm surface.  Put your feet at whatever width you like your stance.  As you face the same direction of your toes (like a soft board with 0-degree angles), you can tell that the boots are slightly lifted on the outer edges, like a pure cant.  As you turn to a more alpine stance, your toes and heels will naturally lift.  Once you get to 90-degrees like a Skwal, you actually get negative canting.  

 

Some people like dead flat.  Some like lots of lift and cant. There's no wrong way to do it, just listen to your body.  

[nils]

Why we got rid of cant and lift for extremecarving ( since late 90's):

 

- was mainly usefull when technical level ( of carving) was lower, to help initiate turns, especially on narrower boards, and assymetrical boards also that were easier to control using lift.

- is useless on wide carving boards ( 21-24cm): the board bends in turns, and the cant and lift are given by the board's curve.

- rotation technique gives you easy turn initiation, therefore having front foot toes and back ankle lifted doesn't add anything

- lift/cant adds height and you want to be as close to the board as possible

- less gear: less weight

( the two last reasons are the main reasons why barely no one uses plates for EC )

 

cons of flat riding: on flats your knees are far appart, especially with wide stance, can be uncomfy when waiting, before starting, this dissapears when riding.

 

I'd suggest to try riding flat once if you intend to ride wider boards and see how it goes.

 

Nils

[Donek]

What follows is the instructions we send to new customers about setup.  The most important things in a setup are comfort and flexibility.  Doing a dry run on your living room carpet before your first day is going to eliminate a lot of unknowns as well as ensure your comfort right off the lift.

 

Stance angles and setup are very personal.  In general, you want your angles such that the toe and heel of your boot is near the edge of the board.  Not way inside or hanging over dramatically.  If you mount the boots in your bindings and place a straight edge against the board's edge and the portion of the boot overhanging that edge, you want to set your binding angles such that the straight edge produces an angle of no more than 75 deg.  As you progress and get better, the angle the straight edge forms with the base of the board will increase to 85 to 90 deg depending on the snow conditions you ride and how far over you are pushing the board.

I recommend doing some carpet riding in order to establish the best binding angles and stance width for you.  Start with the board on the floor and wearing your boots.  Stand on the board in a position that feels comfortable and allows you to remain flexible and dynamic.  Measure the approximate center to center distance between your feet and eyeball an approximate value for your binding angles.  Mount your bindings at that stance width and angles.  There's no point in cinching them down really tight as you will likely loosen them a couple more times before you are done.

Clip into your bindings and listen to what your body is telling you.  You now want to make adjustments to your angles and width in order to eliminate any tension in your muscles, awkward pulling, and ensure you can easily balance.  Ensure that you are also in a position that allows you to get low.  By that I mean you should be able to bend your knees and ultimately touch your chest to your front knee.  Once you feel comfortable and balanced, you are likely in a good starting position.

You can now practice some things you will be doing on the hill.  Pressure the heel edge of the board and reach for your front foot toe with your back hand.  When you make a heel side carve this is the basic position that will keep you balanced

Now pressure your toes and reach for your front foot heel with your front hand.  When you make a toe side carve this is the basic motion that will keep you balanced.

Practice standing on the board with your shoulders perpendicular to the board, knees bend and prepared for the motion in the board as it slides over the terrain.

If you perform these steps before you get on snow the first time, you will find you are well prepared for your first day of carving.

[west carven]

howdy genepires

from the master "you can if you cant" by Bruce Varsava

also a good read "What cants do you use?" some peoples set-up to get an idea where to start.

[philw]

I'd just add that for me at least, it's boot dependent and works along with the lean you set on the boots. Cant and lift are different of course; the former is for people with weird legs I believe.

 

For me the issue is that I need to be able to pressure the front of both boots. If I'm riding flat and I find the nose breaks away now and then in a turn, then probably I need to sett the forward lean on the front foot more upright, or if that's maxed already then I'll add a little toe lift. it's similar with the rear boot. I've never tried just lifting one though, it's either both or nothing I believe.

[genepires]

thanks everyone for the help!

[Jeffrey Day]

Hopefully we didn't bombard you with too much information! And welcome to riding on the edge and to Bomberonline!

[slopestar]

What follows is the instructions we send to new customers about setup. The most important things in a setup are comfort and flexibility. Doing a dry run on your living room carpet before your first day is going to eliminate a lot of unknowns as well as ensure your comfort right off the lift.

Stance angles and setup are very personal. In general, you want your angles such that the toe and heel of your boot is near the edge of the board. Not way inside or hanging over dramatically. If you mount the boots in your bindings and place a straight edge against the board's edge and the portion of the boot overhanging that edge, you want to set your binding angles such that the straight edge produces an angle of no more than 75 deg. As you progress and get better, the angle the straight edge forms with the base of the board will increase to 85 to 90 deg depending on the snow conditions you ride and how far over you are pushing the board.

I recommend doing some carpet riding in order to establish the best binding angles and stance width for you. Start with the board on the floor and wearing your boots. Stand on the board in a position that feels comfortable and allows you to remain flexible and dynamic. Measure the approximate center to center distance between your feet and eyeball an approximate value for your binding angles. Mount your bindings at that stance width and angles. There's no point in cinching them down really tight as you will likely loosen them a couple more times before you are done.

Clip into your bindings and listen to what your body is telling you. You now want to make adjustments to your angles and width in order to eliminate any tension in your muscles, awkward pulling, and ensure you can easily balance. Ensure that you are also in a position that allows you to get low. By that I mean you should be able to bend your knees and ultimately touch your chest to your front knee. Once you feel comfortable and balanced, you are likely in a good starting position

Practice standing on the board with your shoulders perpendicular to the board, knees bend and prepared for the motion in the board as it slides over the terrain.

If you perform these steps before you get on snow the first time, you will find you are well prepared for your first day of carving.

Great advice. I recently changed boots and had to do this with several boards. I found that th 5* of splay I have been using was a bit uncomfortable. Nice to re evaluate things and find some comfort before hitting the snow. Thanks Edited October 10, 2015 by slopestar

[SunSurfer]

Bump. Sean Martin's advice above could be usefully re-read every season.

[lowrider]

On 10/5/2015 at 12:26 PM, Jeffrey Day said:

 

 

Another way to look at canting is to figure out if you are bow-legged or knock-kneed. If you are bow-legged, you may want to consider an inward canting. And conversely, if you are knock-kneed, you may want to consider outward canting. Forum, correct me if I'm wrong, maybe vise versa.

I would like to correct the thinking on this old post." If bow-legged you would want to consider outward canting." You are attempting to make the stance more comfortable you are not trying to correct a medical condition. Inward canting for knock -kneed .

[Jack M]

There’s also this article:

http://alpinesnowboarder.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/canting-and-lift.pdf

[SunSurfer]

On 10/6/2015 at 5:37 AM, Corey said:

If you have hardboots already, stand on a firm surface.  Put your feet at whatever width you like your stance.  As you face the same direction of your toes (like a soft board with 0-degree angles), you can tell that the boots are slightly lifted on the outer edges, like a pure cant.  As you turn to a more alpine stance, your toes and heels will naturally lift.  Once you get to 90-degrees like a Skwal, you actually get negative canting.

@Corey I don't remember coming across your comment above when I was developing my more formal geometric approach to cant and lift, but it's fundamentally the same way of thinking about the problem.

 

 

[SunSurfer]

Was playing around with 9 degrees of lift (front toe/rear heel) vs. 6 degrees at an indoor ski slope a couple of days ago.

Setup:

Boots: UPZ RC10s with an inside boot sole slope (zeppa) of current estimates 11 degrees.

Bindings: Intec heels, F2 race with custom wedges @ 6 degrees, vs. Bomber TD3 with custom 3 degree wedges under the toe and heel blocks plus 6 degree cant discs.

Binding angle 60 degrees front and rear with no cant. Stance distance 2 X my zero cant distance so no cant needed.

Impressions: 

Rear foot: Comfortable with either 6 or 9 degrees heel lift. Possibly a little easier to get my centre of mass lower @ 9.

Front foot: I'm used to riding with 6 degrees. My front boot is normally set with the minimum forward lean and tight springs for minimal forward flex. Going to 9 without any other change made me feel a little more on the tail of the board, not as well controlled and balanced in the exit from each turn. Moving the ankle  position lock for one notch of forward lean preload returned my normal nose/tail balance over the board and was comfortable to ride. It felt like that the angle of my front lower leg was a more crucial setting for completing a clean controlled carve than the slope of the sole of my front foot or the degree of ankle flexion. 

Only a relatively few runs were made with each combination. Longer term comfort/function checks will have to wait till August 2020 for me.

My experiments with using a skwal setup with outward cant and front toe/rear heel lift utilising those same 9 degree TDs will have to wait till then too.

 

 

[STP]

Sorry for bringing this to the front, but have not been on the forum since last season.....It all made sense to me when you look at Leonardo da Vinci man,

While the radius of the circle looks small, to be better balanced you would have both toe lift on the front and heel lift on the rear.....If you have no lift, even with adjustable boots (canting and forward lean), it feels very un-natural.

[Aracan]

Depends on many things. Personally, I ride a rather low binding angle in the rear (38°, if memory serves) and 3° inward canting. The front is much steeper (around 60°), and my UPZs have too much ramp angle for that, which I offset by 3° toe lift.

[st_lupo]

I’ll be that guy

[Deuxdiesel]

To keep the patellar plane roughly parallel, as you increase your angles from 0 you add more rear heel/front toe lift and subtract inward cant.  Obviously it is up to individual choice, but it tends to unlock the hips and knees giving you more range of motion.  

[JRAZZ]

All of this is bunk. I tried following logical thought in my stance and failed miserably.

In desperation I tried outward canting and heel lift on the back AND the front . Feels soooo wrong on the carpet but soooo right on the hill.

Ultimately that's what it is. Personal trial and error until you find what works for you.