Free carving and these new plate systems?

[~tb]

Pardon the "Semi-Cross Post" but I thought this video was worth it. . .

I have had several conversations with other freecarvers in the off season about wether or not these new plate systems have a place in our quivers. The olympics proved that they have a place in the gates, but is the added weight worth it in our day to day riding?

Sean @ Donek snowboards just put a video up in the Vendor section showing some non-partisan benefits of the plate systems in general. Worth the view.

Having not been on one (yet), it made me quite a bit more interested in demoing one as soon as their is enough snow to throw a 4X4 plate on one of my "oldie but goodies."

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Mods. . . if I have broken a rule with this cross post. . . please let me know and delete it, but I thought this one was worth a view in the carving community area as well.

[trailertrash]

Is the added weight, cost, hassle and height worth it? Will we all be riding on something like this in 5 years? Will it be odd to not use one in the future?

[ar(angel]

Great post regardless of where it belongs. I liked seeing an actual system in action. I was a big advocate for the Conshox and still miss my Silberpfiel with that set-up. I know the Conshox and the plates differ in design and function, but it's all part of the growing "isolate the rider" systems that these ad-ons are designed to do.

[Donek]

As I'm a manufacturer and very excited about this technology, you can judge my input according to how you feel. I think you're going to see these plates spill into the soft boot market as well. I've had multiple inquiries already on that front. I'm dying to try one on an incline.

If you look at the ski industry, you'll see they've been doing this stuff for years. I think the payoff on a snowboard is far more than a pair of skis though. With skis, the biggest payoff is full natural flex of the ski. With a snowboard it's complete isolation for the rider and stabilization of your stance.

I thought about adding a section to this video on soft boot setups. If you look at wider freeride stances, you'll find that they influence board geometry and their ability to bend even more than our narrower alpine stances. The further your feet are apart, the more motion you see in those stick legs, but the more ability to you have to push back and prevent the board from bending. jibber's aren't going to be interested for weight reasons, but the average freerider will find a plate opens doors and reduces fatigue.

I had a supplier sales rep come by earlier this summer and showed it to him. He's a long time mountain biker. He compared this system to the addition of suspension systems to bikes. They added weight too, but the reduction in fatigue from rough terrain was so great that people won't buy a mountain bike without suspension. Based on the testing we did in the spring and feedback on multiple fronts, the added weight is a non issue when compared to the reduction in riding fatigue.

It's possible I'm wrong, but I believe these things will alter snowboarding on many levels in the years to come. Creative methods of reducing weight are the biggest hurdles.

[nekdut]

Todd,

Don't let the proto plate that I sent you give you the wrong impression regarding weight and height. Sean said that the final version of this have addressed those two issues, which were the things that jumped out at me after demoing that plate. You'll love what it does to the feel of your board; I found myself going "OH-$#!t" fast but with so much smoothness. I'm looking forward to the final version to see how much lower and lighter it has gotten since that earlier prototype.

Neil

[pokkis]

I get some how de-javuu with discussion related are plates good for carving, did we had same discussion few years ago related metal boards

[terekhov]

I just get f2 silent-flex last year for those knee-breaking icy days - and yes, it works! but.... I rode it in different conditions, and can say that 1kg of weight is something to which I cannot habituate, and usual softness of conditions here in Siberia is definitely not favoring this BOILER-plate

my personal view on that is Occam's razor view: the simpler the better, but not simpler. so when condition calls - ice & refrozen spring conditions - YES, I definitely don't want to ride without it. conditions GREEN: and I definitely don't want this drag, especially in lovely moguls and tighties

for everyday leisure rider it's sure be next NICE GADGET TO HAVE. hardboot boards setup already came over $5000 (not counting arcteryx ultimate carving gloves:) - so another grand for work of beauty is out of question. too pity that it became norm :(

[SunSurfer]

Don't compare plates that are designed to have the rider above the board with their feet on a stable plane with the older shock absorbing systems that still result in the rider's feet changing angles with every bump and turn.

The design concepts are completely different.

Until you have ridden an isocline plate design, that keeps the rider's feet on the same slope while the board arcs beneath, it is hard to believe what the converts like myself are saying.

SunSurfer

[leeho730]

I guess I'll have to lose extra 3lb next winter...

[terekhov]

1) The design concepts are completely different.

2) Until you have ridden an isocline plate design, that keeps the rider's feet on the same slope while the board arcs beneath, it is hard to believe what the converts like myself are saying.

1) sure I see.

2) sure if you want to ride over isocline surface regardless of actual slope. I like to play with actual slope with most effective (light+simple) setup possible. so if you cannot describe what is LOST in your riding due to this features - it is only religious claims, not?

because personally i have no problems in my riding which this plates claim to solve - I only state that if this gadget claimed as universal top-of-the-game - as titanal was - it is bad thing for progress, because considerable part on newbies is from consumerist cultures and view riding as of unedning path of consuming yet one miracle carve-enabling ultimate feature. it is a road FROM freedom...

when people talk about new tech - I, personally, want to see not only benefits and ROI analysis, but all tradeoffs and points when and where going without it will give better overall experience. it is THAT reviews that matters, not praises from ultimate converts.

hope I can describe this philosophy in understandable terms, coz I'm not an english-speaker....

[lowrider]

Terekhov has some valid points. The major trade off is giving up the long developed "feel " you have grown used to of your favorite ride.The ride you get from a hinged, slide designed plate is different than anything you have experienced to date. You may feel that it is not the desired feel you want when you ride but it is definitely different, easier on your body (knees especially). Your favorite board will feel shorter and turn tighter but with a different feel depending on the hardware stance the plate is set up with. The further apart the hardware is mounted compared to regular stance width the closer the board rides to your normal setup but still quite a pronounced change from what you are used to. Very narrow hardware set up and you have a new circus ride to play on.:lol: All of your old boards will ride in a different way then you remember. Perhaps you may discover a new favorite. I think it is important to rememder that to date only Apex has a firm price on their plate. And that price will exclude a lot of people from ever owning a plate. My first plates were cut up old snowboards and provided all the effects i have mentioned above so if you or a friend are handy with tools get busy, look at Sunsurfers basics and get to work. Test your own, share it with others have fun. If you like what you made then commit the $$$$ to what i believe will be money well spent. As far a plate making you a better rider my belief is that a plate can provide you with more options in deciding you comfort range in variable conditions without punishing your body under less than ideal conditions.

[trailertrash]

I get some how de-javuu with discussion related are plates good for carving, did we had same discussion few years ago related metal boards

I would be more worried if we didn't have the discussion.

[GeoffV]

This thread is generating some good discussion. I'm very interested in trying one to form my own opinion. Will it work for me? Is the extra weight and cost worth it? My biggest concern out East is that most of our lifts have no foot rests. After lunch that is a lot of added weight on my front foot. As it is right now hauling up a 185 with all the goodies becomes a painful process once my legs are toast even without the extra weight of a plate.

I can't wait to try a plate on some icy conditions.

Over the last 5 years we have seen a huge leap in new products come out for us.

[pow4ever]

It's Tuesday!!! Out with the price info please

From the look of this thread. The vist plate that I pick up and have 0 days on it are already outdated :(

Thanks

--

David

[lowrider]

Geoff don't worry too much about the leg rests your forward leg doesn't take the same pounding with a plate so you shouldn't be worn out by at least 2:30. I ride a 186 Coiler and the extra weight is not an issue.

[lowrider]

Sell it now before the market crashes!!!

[queequeg]

I'm very curious about how these things will feel to me underfoot. Aside from the isolation and dampening properties that the plates provide, I imagine a big benefit might be improved grip on ice although nobody has really mentioned this specifically. Looking at the way the decambered board profile looks with and without the plate system attached I can't help but think that plate systems will improve tracking on ice. Modern decks already grip so well on ice that this is somewhat of a moot point, but it should be interesting to see how people react to them riding on hard east-coast boilerplate.

Given the way the plate allows the board to flex more freely: are we going to want a stiffer board with a plate system than we would without?

I really like the idea of something that makes riding chewed up snow more fun.

I don't like the idea of any new weight underfoot, because I get pain in my hip (of all places) from riding the lift, but my board is quite heavy compared to similar decks the same length. Footrests are nice when the lift you're riding has one but plenty of lifts still don't have them.

How easily does the area under the plate fill up with snow?

[ZetaTre]

Don't compare plates that are designed to have the rider above the board with their feet on a stable plane with the older shock absorbing systems that still result in the rider's feet changing angles with every bump and turn.

The design concepts are completely different.

Until you have ridden an isocline plate design, that keeps the rider's feet on the same slope while the board arcs beneath, it is hard to believe what the converts like myself are saying.

SunSurfer

Wouldn't the Vist plate be somewhere in between since the floating concept allow some independence between board and plate?

[Erik J]

Great video! It really got me thinking about the advantages / tradeoffs.

Anyone have experience with a plate on a short board - is it effective?

in reflection of a recent and nagging back injury, I am doubting my ability to pound out another season on the rough riding glass beasts that I am so fond of. I am hoping that with the aid of a plate, I will be a little less ragged and a little more mobile at the end of my next snow season.

+1, whatever I need to do to stay on board, I will do.

[Mike T]

I got a chance to ride this rig:

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=30438

last May.

I also got to ride the plate on a new Coiler SL (Same one Bruce was riding at USASA in Copper), both boards without the plates, and my own NSR (Which is now Jim M's NSR) without a plate.

I do race NASTAR but NASTAR season was long done by the time I got to play with this stuff.

The plusses of the plate, as a freecarver, were as follows for me:

-Better grip on early spring AM ice

-Felt more stable at speed

-Got up to speed faster

-Hot bucked around less by bad spring grooming and slush pockets

All of this was on the GS. On the SL, I really didn't like the plate as the advantages were more than outweighed by it taking MUCH more energy to make frequent turns.

Fin refers to the ability to "pedal" or torsioanally twist the board... I found I lost most of that ability which was a bit unnerving at times, but it wasn't like on a Hangl where I lost it completely. This is, however, one thing that made it not fun on the SL.

However... the differences between the NSR+Asym 182 and my NSR 185 were at least as noticeable as the differences between the NSR+ with and without the plate. I pretty much experienced the same that Bruce did with that board, except that I got to take it on early AM spring ice and WOW. To be honest I was less impressed with the plate and more with the board, which I bought from Bruce.

I will probably procure a plate, but won't use it all the time... definitely for NASTAR and GS racing, and probably for icy spells / spring mornings. But $1000 is far more than I will spend.... and I want something that adds minimal stack height.

So they have a future in freecarving applications? I think so, for some people, especially those that like big boards, ride mostly un the firm stuff, and need a little help to keep their grip on it. Short-board riders, people who value snap and pop? I'm not seeing it.

[pow4ever]

Sell it now before the market crashes!!!

Thought about that :)

Might be a good time to bring this thread back up:

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=30928

With regarding to additional weight on the chair lift. Can't we use some sort of retractable pole/leash/rope/Velcro on the back binding and just use our hand to hold on to it while on the lift? Time to hit home depot to see what is available.

I am sure the smart ppl can figure out some better solution.

Cause I don't want to get dangle upside down with no pants :)

--

David

[lowrider]

All the effects are similar regardless of board length. The differences you know in board lenghts are still the same. Takes more effort to turn a longer board etc... The huge difference is the mellowing (smoother ride less front leg fatigue) of the ride while still maintaining full or better control as on ice, or chop or ??? The board simply maintains a more constistant edge under all conditions. Peddling (if one believes in it) is less effective since you can't distort the boards shape as you can without a plate. A good thing in my opinion. I will make this rash statement. Riding a board with a plate reveals the true board as it was designed to be, good or bad. It allows the board to carve within it's design perameters, side cut, effective edge, camber, side cut radius and stiffness. It would be real interesting to go back and review previous boards with a plate and see the differences. Plate on a long board, plate on a short board good for both. My opinion based on riding 186 to 159 length boards.

[b0ardski]

The demonstration is enlightening, (thanks Sean)but still leaves a couple ?? in my head.

This makes me think that the elastomer effects and stack height of a suspended binding like TD2/3 are rendered unnecessary. I'm wondering about sidewinder toe/heel blocks with shim for lift/cant mounted directly or by thin 4x4 plate which would nearly eliminate excess stack height & weight. This would way simplify the setup as a whole.

Although like the idea of freeing up board flex, I'm thinking for powder & freestyle/freeride boards the weight, snowcatcher effect, and isolation of independent leg/foot control is not something most riders would want. certainly not in deep snow tight trees & slower speed freestyle maneuvers.

[lowrider]

Powder and freestyle makes most equipment unnecessary(except snorkle), plates will rule the "ICE" coast. :lol:You spoiled powder rats can go ride in the woods. Sidewinder will mitigate some undesirable traits but the slide is the "Key" design that without stack height and you win the race.

[bobdea]

This thread is generating some good discussion. I'm very interested in trying one to form my own opinion. Will it work for me? Is the extra weight and cost worth it? My biggest concern out East is that most of our lifts have no foot rests. After lunch that is a lot of added weight on my front foot. As it is right now hauling up a 185 with all the goodies becomes a painful process once my legs are toast even without the extra weight of a plate.

I can't wait to try a plate on some icy conditions.

Over the last 5 years we have seen a huge leap in new products come out for us.

it's bearable with a 162, not so much with a 182. wind is what makes it suck the most or riding the lift with other people. that said, I think the system here is lighter than the hangls which I have experience with.

the S flex which I did use as well is noticable but it's lighter was not bad at all in this regard