Quads are driving me nuts

[softbootsurfer]

Relax...there are some edibles that come to mind...I think back on learning which equals Apprehension, Apprehension equals Anxiety, which in turn equals Tension, which equals Fatigue...I can wear myself out in two hours if I try HARD enough...

[TimW]

I get the impression I am the only one not doing any specific exercise for snowboarding?

Last year I picked up a bit of (trail)running after getting bored with cycling, and I was surprised that it seemed actually a good preparation for snowboarding. Before that, with cycling I did a lot more, was in quite decent shape and did the occasional mtb marathon,  and even developed a bit of leg muscle.  

Now with running I do far less,  maybe 15k/ week average at an easy pace,  but for boarding it seems better.  My guess is it has to do with targeting specific muscles with cycling vs. more allround training with trailrunning.

I agree with the others that technique is key for carving endurance.  Rotation helps to minimise the energy needed to keep the board on its edge.  And of course coffee breaks (with cake!) and a hefeweizen for recovery afterwards are vital....

Edited November 29, 2020 by TimW

[big mario]

https://www.backcountry.com/explore/train-eccentric-leg-strength-for-alpine-skiing

Here is the actual set progression of what I posted earlier, as well as a brief article of its genesis

 

[Corey]

Thanks Mario, I'm going to give that a shot. I wanted to taper in more explosive movements and that looks like a good start!  

[Pat Donnelly]

X - hard to offer suggestions to improve without seeing but here are some starting points for study:

 

https://www.alpinecarving.com/technique.html

Heel side

While a perfect toe side carve feels great, a perfect heel side carve feels even better, but it's harder to pull off. To take up the sport of carving is to seek the perfect heel side turn.

Your carving ability will be limited by your weakest side: toe side or heel side. Carvers are usually less skilled on heel side. A poor heel side has a bad cumulative effect:

Turns are not tight enough, causing excessive speed.

The excessive speed causes the toe side turns to be more difficult.

Carvers wind up trying to check their speed on toe side, which limits the effectiveness of the toe side turn, making the next heel side turn completely fall apart.

Therefore, it is critical to develop your heel side turn: If you improve your heel side by a factor of two, your toe side turns will also improve dramatically, and your overall carving will improve by a factor of 4.

A lot of carvers start down a run and drop into their first carved turn on toe side, because it is easier than on heel side. However, if you are not oriented to start with a toe side carve, you will wind up wasting a turn to get the board around to toe side. It is important to learn how to drop into your first carved turn on heel side to avoid wasting vertical. In fact, you may want to only start your first carved turns on heel side, to force you to practice it. To start a carve on heel side, you will need a lot of angulation, and you will need to build up speed using weight shift: visualize moving your hips down the hill, out from under your torso.

A lot of carvers are plagued with edge hold problems on heel side, which can appear as two phenomena: wavy trenches or chatter.

If it feels like the tail of the board is oscillating back and forth, you are probably leaving wavy trenches. It happens because the nose and tail of the board are each trying to carve a different radius. There are two ways to fix this problem:

Avoid twisting the board longitudinally. Try using more heel lift on the back foot.

Don't maintain the same rigid static pressure during the turn. Instead, apply dynamic pressure using a few techniques:

Progressively shift your weight from forward to back throughout the turn

Progressively increase your angulation throughout the turn

Progressively twist your upper body towards the inside of the turn.

To allow the board to seek its most natural arc, try unlocking the lean adjusters on your boots.

If the entire board chatters or washes out, it means you are unbalanced, or the board is twisting. Some remedies:

Keep your weight over the carving edge by angulating. See the section on Angulation for several tips, including moving your outer hand to the inside of the turn.

Tilt the board higher on edge. A board tilted at a low angle is more likely to skid out. Strive to get early edge angle.

A stiff setup on bumpy terrain is not a good combo.

Your binding setup might need tweaking. Make sure that you are centered on the board, and that both legs are contributing an equal amount of pressure during a turn.

Do not tense up your legs, otherwise the board will chatter. Bend your knees more and relax your muscles.

If you twist the board, the nose will want to carve a different radius than the tail. Board twist can happen if you bend your knees aggressively, rotate your body into the turn, and don't have enough lift on the rear binding. In this situation your rear heel will try to lift up as your front toe pushes down, twisting the board.

Chatter can be caused by too much pressure on the tail ... or too little:

Don't break forward at the waist, otherwise you will take pressure off the tail, causing it to skid out. To avoid breaking at the waist, try to tilt the board using your lower leg, with your knees and ankles.

You might be exerting pressure on the board too late in the carve. As you are finishing the turn and the board is about 15º from the finish, you need to be taking pressure off the board to start the next turn. If you are still pressuring the board beyond this point, it's going to skid. Shift the time interval of pressure toward the early part of the turn. This problem can occur if the board doesn't get tilted high on edge soon enough at the beginning of the carve - as a result, the rider over-pressures the board during the later half of the carve trying to get it higher on edge.

 

http://www.carvers.it/club-ski-cern-ch-snowboard-tutor-the-elementary-turn/

http://www.carvers.it/club-ski-cern-ch-snowboard-tutor-basic-carve-turn-extension-turns/

[pow4ever]

lots of golden nuggets being discussed here.

Each points dance around genuine insights but only you can make it cohesive for you.

Having Fun is key as Corey pointed out.   It's recreation for most here.  Everyone's goal is different. 
I struggle with it greatly.  In my mind:  more efforts equal more result but only if the efforts are focus on what the right thing to do.

Rotation technique is generally less physical demanding (compare to angulation) as Tim point out.
However it does required better flexibility(think YOGA).  Everyone's bio mechanic is different.  I happen to be an inflexible brute so I preferred more angulation/racer style but as I get older i might need to re-think the plan.  I do enjoy trying/incorporating different technique to make it work for me.

I don't go out of my way to train for snowboard but having a general fitness is good idea for almost all the things I enjoyed.
Muscle prevent impact injury
Good cardio allow me to have fun longer

to sum it up for me -- FWIW
Every early season; I struggle.  snowboard feel weird/awkward; dealing pain/pressure point, muscle aches.  It's cold/expensive...
Constant questioning is this something I like to do or just going through the motion.

Usually by mid season; the FUD(fear uncertainty and doubt) went away
by late season:  full blown addict fiend mode...

worry less and just have fun 
pride is really worthless(in video context) 
I was counting on the older I get the less i care what people think:
In the context where I am probably the only snowboarder that's still wiping out from time to time consistently even after decade of trying lol...

[Chouinard]

On 11/27/2020 at 9:54 PM, 1xsculler said:

board 2 to 3 days/week for ten runs (2hours)

I’d take that over 2 weekend days for 4 hrs on a 180’ drop anytime.
 
Two ways to solve your problem...stop overloading your muscles or spend your time building your legs into tree stumps to carry the loads.

You’ve tried just about every board on the planet with similar results. I suggest you try a Thirst SF. It Is significantly softer than the boards you’ve been riding without any loss of performance. 

[patmoore]

Several years ago I tried an eight-year experiment.  Every other year in the off season I worked out exensively trying to to simiulate snowboard turns with several types of gym apparatus.  I was diligent in my efforts and faced the new season with high expectations.  Sorry to say,  it never made a difference.  Each year I had at least a half dozen days of serious quad bun before things settled down regardless of whether or not I trained in the off season. My conclusion:  there's no substitute for the real thing.  

 

I've been out once this season on the board and once on skis.  The quad burn on the skis was so much I had to give up after an hour.

[Jack M]

On 11/28/2020 at 2:27 PM, David Kirk said:

I'll take a different tack on this one....I think it's entirely possible that your quads are plenty strong but that you are holding your breath while you ride. It's amazing how many people do this while concentrating on form or technique or terrain.

Try riding while breathing rhythmically....breathe in on a toe turn and out on a heel turn.....or find your own tempo. I'll bet that if you consciously breathe and those big hard worked muscles get ample oxygen that you'll feel much stronger for much longer.

I have to remind myself to breathe while carving.  I work on exhaling during the carve, and inhaling during the transition.  I feel it helps with lots of stuff.

Try to ride more two-footed.  A lot of people really lean on their front leg a lot more than the rear.

Don't squat too much during carves.  Of course you have to bend your knees, but some people over-do it.  You only need enough bend for suspension.

If you don't have toe lift on your front binding, get some.  At least 3 degrees if using Deeluxe boots, 6 for UPZ and Mountain Slope. 

Also relax the forward lean of the front boot.

I'm reminded of my favorite pirate joke...

[1xsculler]

Thanks for all of the good tips. I had a pretty good day today with awesome conditions riding my 172 Coiler Contra. 
Friday I’ll ride my 168S Swoard which is very soft but wider than I like at 22cm. 

 

[Maxlanaudiere]

17 hours ago, Jack M said:

 

I'm reminded of my favorite pirate joke...

Do share Jack. I love pirates jokes.

Which letter do Pirate love the most ? 

[Pat Donnelly]

 

[Jack M]

15 hours ago, Maxlanaudiere said:

Do share Jack. I love pirates jokes.

Pirate walks into a bar with the helm of his pirate ship stuffed down his pants. Bartender says “hey buddy, what’s with the steering wheel down your pants?” Pirate says “Arrrrgh, it’s drivin’ me nuts!”

[Beckmann AG]

It seems every year someone wonders aloud why hardboot snowboarding remains an outlier.

Threads like this one provide some insight into that question.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Beckmann AG

[Corey]

2 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

It seems every year someone wonders aloud why hardboot snowboarding remains an outlier.

Threads like this one provide some insight into that question.

I know, right? People posting vague insinuations with no help at all!  

[Beckmann AG]

On 12/1/2020 at 12:10 PM, patmoore said:

Several years ago I tried an eight-year experiment.  Every other year in the off season I worked out exensively trying to to simiulate snowboard turns with several types of gym apparatus.  I was diligent in my efforts and faced the new season with high expectations.  Sorry to say,  it never made a difference.  Each year I had at least a half dozen days of serious quad bun before things settled down regardless of whether or not I trained in the off season. My conclusion:  there's no substitute for the real thing.  

 

I've been out once this season on the board and once on skis.  The quad burn on the skis was so much I had to give up after an hour.

 

 

So… I did a related experiment. Mine took a slightly different path, in that I did no conditioning at all for about the same number of years.

-> The result being a reduction in quad burn. <-

And my game has improved markedly.

Hard to imagine, right?

 

The project began by accident, when a particularly busy summer left no time for training.

Regardless, I had no muscle fatigue issues working my usual ski school schedule, nor did I feel the need to stop frequently while free riding.

Much of this had to do with previous efforts made to optimize my relationship to my board.

Part of it had to do with an emphasis on using muscle as a means of guidance/control, rather than as a structural support system.

Part of it had to do with questioning why I did what I did the way I did, and was there a better way. E.g., did each joint articulation serve it's highest purpose, or was I doing something out of expediency/habit, etc.

And part of it had to do with correlating cause and effect across multiple platforms.

All of which continued to evolve as the seasons progressed.

In the absence of a muscular ‘buffer’,  daily r&d came down to ‘find a better way to ride’, or ‘stop riding’.

 

I don’t recommend the practice of riding without a certain level of fitness to the general public for various reasons, perhaps the most important being a predisposition toward injury for the less diligent.

For instance, I was very careful not to ‘ride myself into a corner’, with brute force the only exit strategy. That itself is not the kind of thing one can do until they’re in the contemplative/meditative stage of development; where concerns of balance, edge grip, and speed control are essentially non-issues.

In short, removing ‘fitness’ from the picture, as a means of untangling technique and gear configuration is hard to beat.

The more fitness/strength you bring to bear on a technique-weighted activity, the longer you can fake it without realizing you’re faking it. Meanwhile you’re entrenching non-optimal movement patterns/tactics, which ultimately makes it harder to advance/refine your technique.

 

TL;DR:  learn to drive and work out the handling geometry with a small engine, then add PS; rather than stuffing a big engine/novice driver into a marginal chassis.

---

Pat,

If you’d like to resolve the quad burn on skis, Pm me a good phone #  and we can discuss if you like.

 

[SunSurfer]

You can buy new boards, boots & bindings.

You can experiment till you have a comfortable and functional equipment setup.

But you have to deliberately and mindfully practice to get good technique.

Lessons (particular thanks Corey & Richard Knapp) helped me enormously on my progress to the point where riding with a mate he stopped to rest by the side of the trail and ruefully remarked "You're making more turns, better turns and with less effort!"

Over the years, as my technique slowly improved, all my boards performed better. Whereas, I had to reach a certain level of skill before I could really start to appreciate the differences in performance between boards I owned and demo'ed.

Lessons made for rapid, big jumps in my skills. Deliberate practice of what is taught, and as @Beckmann AG describes above, finding ways of carving with the least effort will end up with you riding smoothly and efficiently.

It ain't the length of your wand, it's how you wiggle it!

Edited December 6, 2020 by SunSurfer

[noschoolrider]

On 12/1/2020 at 9:10 AM, patmoore said:

Several years ago I tried an eight-year experiment.  Every other year in the off season I worked out exensively trying to to simiulate snowboard turns with several types of gym apparatus.  I was diligent in my efforts and faced the new season with high expectations.  Sorry to say,  it never made a difference.  Each year I had at least a half dozen days of serious quad bun before things settled down regardless of whether or not I trained in the off season. My conclusion:  there's no substitute for the real thing. 

Wakeboarding and windsurfing (wave sailing) are great substitutes, but you can't do them in a gym.

[pow4ever]

nicely put @Beckmann AG @SunSurfer!

very chicken/egg-ish, zen - "be like water".  

love this: 

On 12/5/2020 at 9:53 PM, Beckmann AG said:

The more fitness/strength you bring to bear on a technique-weighted activity, the longer you can fake it without realizing you’re faking it. Meanwhile you’re entrenching non-optimal movement patterns/tactics, which ultimately makes it harder to advance/refine your technique.

I am in this picture and I don't like it; faking it since 2010 lol...

For me technique/efficiency comes way later, strength/endurance built up are part of the journey to achieve carving Nirvana.  Work harder and not smarter is my mantra; well because I am just not that smart but i do have the tenacity of a packing mule.  I will get there eventually i think.

“we have evolved as a species to pay the utmost attention to that which is just beyond our reach" - this sum it up perfectly for me in pursuit of the perfect carve.
 

[Corey]

Why not both? The average person's quality of life (current and future) gets better with a little more muscle and higher bone density. Especially considering the average age on this forum.

The top skiers wouldn't have thighs the size of tree trunks if you lost technique with strength. 

[SunSurfer]

Watchmakers apparently develop musclely forearms and hands. Strong muscles allow precise movements to be sustained and repeated.

For any given level of muscle strength and cardio-respiratory capacity for oxygen delivery to said muscles, good technique will maximise the riding possible.

The fact that I can ride my leg powered mountain bike 100km of undulating terrain doesn't mean my quads don't start to get a little lactate "burn" on the way down the hill. But it does explain, in part @Corey why I often have ridden past you sitting on the snow!

https://strava.app.link/zBrBtzri2bb

Edited December 8, 2020 by SunSurfer

[Corey]

5 minutes ago, SunSurfer said:

But it does explain, in part @Corey why I often have ridden past you sitting on the snow!

I was enjoying the view! Or waiting for the group! Or some other excuse! 

[Beckmann AG]

11 hours ago, Corey said:

Why not both? The average person's quality of life (current and future) gets better with a little more muscle and higher bone density. Especially considering the average age on this forum.

The top skiers wouldn't have thighs the size of tree trunks if you lost technique with strength. 

I don't believe my previous post is arguing against strength or fitness. Rather, pointing out that going after strength before technique can slow the acquisition of the things you want, meanwhile anchoring the things you don't.

Of course, if one wants to work harder at a particular activity than necessary, then getting strong is a prerequisite, and that's ok.

 

[st_lupo]

On 12/8/2020 at 1:39 AM, SunSurfer said:

 

The fact that I can ride my leg powered mountain bike 100km of undulating terrain doesn't mean my quads don't start to get a little lactate "burn" on the way down the hill. But it does explain, in part @Corey why I often have ridden past you sitting on the snow!

https://strava.app.link/zBrBtzri2bb

Nice ride!

 

[SunSurfer]

54 minutes ago, st_lupo said:

Nice ride!

 

We did the return trip the following day via essentially the same route.